Something to play towards or un-necessary forced time sink

[Solarverse]

8 minutes ago, Lines said:

Worth stating that Challenge =/= Grinding. Grinding can be Challenging, Challenge can be Grinding, but they don't equate to each other. I think it's easy to think that people asking for challenge mean that they necessarily just want grinds.

Exactly. It doesn't have to be a grind, this game has never been a grind IMO, even at its most difficult stage it was far from a grind by many MMO standards. The game absolutely does not have to be a grind to be a challenge. I really hope that is not what people are reading in to this.  😞 I'm not saying you, but I am starting to think that they might. The poster above thought that and if that is what people are going to take out of this then my whole point was completely missed and that book I wrote is utterly pointless.  😥

Edited November 18, 2020 by Solarverse

[DSorrow]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

What sucks about this...is the fact that even after I finally accomplish this go, I will have diddly squat to show for it...I will have bragging rights....and honestly, who cares about bragging rights.

This is the kind of challenge we are placing on ourselves that this game simply does not offer us and that is completely unrewarding. So how is this fair to us?

Just to address these few points, how is this not a challenge the game offers if it is available by tweaking the game's difficulty settings? I agree with you that any kind of "no enhancements/pool powers" type of artificial difficulty through gimping characters by disabling innate abilities is BS, but the Werner rules aren't that.

 

As far as rewards go, I'd definitely like to see increased merit rewards for actually using the extra difficulty options, but beyond that I don't think there needs to be anything else besides bragging rights for a vast majority of the accomplishments in the game. First, it just doesn't make sense to use development time for creating a shiny medal or unlockable for silly challenges a majority of the players will never even attempt, especially if it's something only very specific AT/powerset combos can complete. Second, I really don't understand why we need something to show for completing something like the Werner rules ITF. To shove our superiority in somebody else's face? At least in my mind, those kind of challenges exist for me and only me, and most likely nobody else gives a crap if I could do it, especially in a game like CoH where you need at most above average skilled player (not top 0.1%) for some of the dev designed challenges.

[tidge]

I deeply agree with the sentiment that you don't have to play GOD OF WAAARGH characters/AT to enjoy the game, however...

 

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

 Make a petless mastermind. 

...Don't do this. Or if you do, accept that it comes with its own suite of crowd reactions.

[Solarverse]

33 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Just to address these few points, how is this not a challenge the game offers if it is available by tweaking the game's difficulty settings? I agree with you that any kind of "no enhancements/pool powers" type of artificial difficulty through gimping characters by disabling innate abilities is BS, but the Werner rules aren't that.

 

As far as rewards go, I'd definitely like to see increased merit rewards for actually using the extra difficulty options, but beyond that I don't think there needs to be anything else besides bragging rights for a vast majority of the accomplishments in the game. First, it just doesn't make sense to use development time for creating a shiny medal or unlockable for silly challenges a majority of the players will never even attempt, especially if it's something only very specific AT/powerset combos can complete. Second, I really don't understand why we need something to show for completing something like the Werner rules ITF. To shove our superiority in somebody else's face? At least in my mind, those kind of challenges exist for me and only me, and most likely nobody else gives a crap if I could do it, especially in a game like CoH where you need at most above average skilled player (not top 0.1%) for some of the dev designed challenges.

It's not about shoving anything in anyone's face though...it's about earning something and knowing that you did what it took to earn it. This has been the driving goal of MMORPG's from the very beginning. Even old school (and new) quests have a shiny at the end of them. The "Complete this Quest and you will get the Chest Plate of Arggonn!" type of thing. So this is nothing new and this game had stuff like that by way of costume unlocks, capes, auras...and most notably badges.

 

Having said that, I can most certainly be happy with a higher merit reward for higher difficulty, however, I think people would feel that is also unfair if they aren't the type of player who builds in such a way that can accomplish that kind of goal which puts us right back at square one.

[DSorrow]

29 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

It's not about shoving anything in anyone's face though...it's about earning something and knowing that you did what it took to earn it.

But you do know you did what it took even without getting a shiny medal that says so, wanting a super exclusive unlockable trophy is something else. What I'm trying to say is that there has to be a dev defined scope of challenges and related badges, and to make best use of developer time and to keep things fair, those should be doable with any AT/powerset combo. Any challenges beyond that should strictly be for the player's own entertainment. Basically, I don't think it's justifiable to have unlockables for stuff like the Werner rule ITF. The furthest I'd go is reward modifiers for using the additional difficulty settings and expanding the special difficulty options for all content.

 

Edit to add:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love some more challenging content but I completely disagree with gating anything unlockable behind it. I absolutely love games like Dark Souls, but I also recognize they're not the type of game most people enjoy and by virtue of that, implementing similar levels of challenge in CoH would most likely be, relatively speaking, a waste of our scarce developer time. Gating unlockables behind content like that would be unjustifiable, and nobody wants to use our dear devs for something that's an unjustifiable waste of time.

Edited November 18, 2020 by DSorrow

[Solarverse]

7 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

But you do know you did what it took even without getting a shiny medal that says so, wanting a super exclusive unlockable trophy is something else. What I'm trying to say is that there has to be a dev defined scope of challenges and related badges, and to make best use of developer time and to keep things fair, those should be doable with any AT/powerset combo. Any challenges beyond that should strictly be for the player's own entertainment. Basically, I don't think it's justifiable to have unlockables for stuff like the Werner rule ITF. The furthest I'd go is reward modifiers for using the additional difficulty settings and expanding the special difficulty options for all content.

 

Edit to add:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love some more challenging content but I completely disagree with gating anything unlockable behind it. I absolutely love games like Dark Souls, but I also recognize they're not the type of game most people enjoy and by virtue of that, implementing similar levels of challenge in CoH would most likely be, relatively speaking, a waste of our scarce developer time. Gating unlockables behind content like that would be unjustifiable, and nobody wants to use our dear devs for something that's an unjustifiable waste of time.

It's about risk and reward. More risk, more reward. This is just the way MMOs are and it's what pulled players like me to them to begin with. It is simply how I, me personally and other players who are like me enjoy the game. We once had that, but sadly, players took issue with it on the live forums and convinced the Devs to take all of that away. They did not care how that negatively impacted a lot of us in those days, they wanted it their way. They came to a game that was designed a certain way, they did not like how it was designed, started taking issues with the way it was designed and had it changed. All I and people like me want...is a small piece of that back and allowing other players to have optional ways to get it. I mean, my idea already gives these players a way to not have to work to get the same thing. I mean, we gotta meet half way here somewhere. It feels very unfair to take away something we once had and then take the stance that is currently being taken against the idea. To me it's like, "Wow...I never asked for this to be taken away to begin with, I am giving an alternative way for us to get what we want and giving a very easy way to get the same thing without having to work for it and that's still not good enough?"

That really does make me feel like I am being kicked while I'm down and honestly makes me feel pretty defeated here. It's like even a small semblance of getting back what we once had is being shot down...how much more defeating can one get.

[DSorrow]

47 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

very easy way to get the same thing without having to work for it

How does a merit cost equal not having to work for it? It adds an inconvenience or a grind at minimum for anyone who isn't predisposed to challenges or unlocking gates. If "working for it" isn't difficult beyond a scheduling challenge, then it's an inconvenience or a grind for pretty much everyone.

47 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I mean, we gotta meet half way here somewhere.

While I understand your frustration, I completely disagree with this sentiment. For any game to stay alive, you cater to the population you have and if a majority of that population feels like some game elements don't add value, then the logical thing is to get rid of them or change them so that you appease the majority, unless the developers have solid evidence to react differently. It makes little sense to meet half way unless equally significant parts of the population feel opposing ways on the issue, and at least based on this thread, it seems to me that introducing time sinks or gated content would mostly be seen as a bad move. However, I do agree with you that more risk should result in more rewards, much like turning the + and x sliders in the difficulty already work, but I'd limit this to merit rewards (and add these options to all content).

 

As I've said before, I'd like some more challenging content but if there are only a handful of people in addition to me who would like that over some more popular development ideas, I can accept that such content goes to the bottom of the prioritization queue. I won't make demands that it has to be half way up there because there's no justifying a placement like that even if I'd personally like it.

 

I play most games on higher difficulty because it makes the games more engaging, and that's all there is to me. I don't think there's anything positive about excluding other people from content and rewards through gates and unnecessarily high difficulty requirements, because none of that adds anything to my accomplishment, but it negatively impacts a lot of people. Though, as I've said before, risk should equal reward up to a point, which is the dev defined level of appropriate challenge in response to the community. Anything beyond that is just for the player's own entertainment and bragging rights.

[Solarverse]

Just now, DSorrow said:

How does a merit cost equal not having to work for it? It adds an inconvenience or a grind at minimum for anyone who isn't predisposed to challenges or unlocking gates. If "working for it" isn't difficult beyond a scheduling challenge, then it's an inconvenience or a grind for pretty much everyone.

So by that logic we should just remove everything from the merit vendors and give it to the players for free. That logic just makes no sense to me. So it's okay to have to work for some things but not others? I honestly can't wrap my head around that.

Just now, DSorrow said:

While I understand your frustration, I completely disagree with this sentiment. For any game to stay alive, you cater to the population you have and if a majority of that population feels like some game elements don't add value, then the logical thing is to get rid of them or change them so that you appease the majority,

Is it really the majority though? Or just the most vocal? I remember a time when the seemingly majority of forum posters were against giving everything away for free....they lost that battle obviously.

Just now, DSorrow said:

 

 

unless the developers have solid evidence to react differently. It makes little sense to meet half way unless equally significant parts of the population feel opposing ways on the issue, and at least based on this thread, it seems to me that introducing time sinks or gated content would mostly be seen as a bad move.

In my experience, the people who post the forums very rarely express what I hear people say in game. You have to remember, most people do not post the forums because they feel that people who post the forums are rude or too analytical. People have said that they avoid forums like the plague because they feel like it takes a certain personality to be a forum poster. This is just some of the reasons I have been given when somebody asks me to post something on their behalf and my response to them is, "Why not just post it yourself?" But I hear ya...I at this point just give up. Clearly there will never be any compromises here. The forum posters sadly are unwilling to compromise and I am too tired and mentally drained to continue on with this debate. I feel I should probably step away before I start letting it get to me.

 

[jubakumbi]

The Good Old Days are a myth propagated by those that cannot grow and change, IME.

 

Sure, as video games have changed over time, they have become less fun to some and more fun to others, it's just life.

 

All MMOs deal with all of the issues presented here.

 

There is no magic button.

There is no turning back the clock.

 

There is, IMO, either the acceptance of reality and moving foward, or clinging to the mythical Good Old Days and wilting.

 

No one took anything away from anyone.

Games and the audiences for those games simply changed.

The entire idea that some players have, in some way, been 'wronged' by the evolution of online gaming is IMO the epitome of a martyr complex.

I find fewer and fewer games on the market appeal to me...I don't feel wronged, I don't feel the need to rage against the universe or some small portion of the gaming community over that, I simply accept that there are fewer games that appeal to me over trying to imply I was robbed of something.

 

For me, it's all about outlook and attitude.

Some gamers want the game to tell them what they should be doing for a dopamine fix - gated content - and some gamers want to choose goals - no gated content - and some want a mix - most players I meet.

Everyone on these forums _knows_ there are ways to get those sytles of play, even from COH right now, but it means they have to 'do work' to get it and that's the rub...

The main population for the game is here on HC, so like Live, HC dictates the playstyle.

You can still get the more gated playstyle on other servers, so IMO, the 'marketplace' is still serving the gamers that want gated content, they just have to shop at a different store...

[DSorrow]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

So by that logic we should just remove everything from the merit vendors and give it to the players for free. That logic just makes no sense to me. So it's okay to have to work for some things but not others? I honestly can't wrap my head around that.

No, by that logic you have to think about what you give for free and what comes with a cost. Even in the official CoH, a vast majority of the things were given to the players for free: most of the costume parts, powersets, etc, without any work required to have those things. So yes, it's okay to have to work for some things but not others. The big notion, though, is that when the status quo is that very few gates exist because the overwhelming community sentiment seems to be that many of the gates don't add value, implementing new gates has to be justified in an extremely solid manner and proved to benefit the players. 

 

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Is it really the majority though? Or just the most vocal? I remember a time when the seemingly majority of forum posters were against giving everything away for free....they lost that battle obviously.

Like in any democracy, it's the majority of those that go out there and cast their vote, though I'd be willing to put money on the line that the gamer population is significantly skewed to the casual side. I'll also have to disagree with you on the giving away things for free point, because I don't think we've ended up in a place where everything is given away for free. You don't get automatic instant 50s or full IO builds for free, you don't get accolades or a large badge collection for free and you sure as hell have to put in a good effort if you want to have a chance at something like a Werner ITF. Whatever has become "too easy" has been made up for with things that have become barely possible.

 

15 minutes ago, jubakumbi said:

The Good Old Days are a myth propagated by those that cannot grow and change, IME.

 

Sure, as video games have changed over time, they have become less fun to some and more fun to others, it's just life.

 

All MMOs deal with all of the issues presented here.

 

There is no magic button.

There is no turning back the clock.

 

There is, IMO, either the acceptance of reality and moving foward, or clinging to the mythical Good Old Days and wilting.

 

No one took anything away from anyone.

Games and the audiences for those games simply changed.

The entire idea that some players have, in some way, been 'wronged' by the evolution of online gaming is IMO the epitome of a martyr complex.

I find fewer and fewer games on the market appeal to me...I don't feel wronged, I don't feel the need to rage against the universe or some small portion of the gaming community over that, I simply accept that there are fewer games that appeal to me over trying to imply I was robbed of something.

100% agree with this, especially the bolded part.

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

It's not about shoving anything in anyone's face though...it's about earning something and knowing that you did what it took to earn it.

 

Personal gratification is the only real reward.  Badges, titles, unique graphics and textures on gear, they're just acknowledgement from someone else.  You knowing what you did, how hard you worked, what hells you waded through, and you seeing the result or your efforts, of your perseverance and determination, that's what matters.  That's what playing less than god/goddess-like characters offers.  That's where you can find the challenge, and satisfaction.

 

I'm living in a 12'x16' cabin with no plumbing and no 110v electricity for my own gratification.  Not to impress you, not to garner respect from my nearest neighbor, not for pats on the back from my friends, not to "prove" anything to anyone, but for me.  There are no plaques celebrating me.  I have no gold stars decorating my walls.  My success isn't measured in the number of people who complement, or even notice, me.  It's what I get, inside, from living where and how I do, that makes it rewarding.  The measure of my success is my happiness, and the rewards I gain for doing this are innumerable and intangible.

 

Waiting for developers to make "challenging" or "rewarding" content is futile, because challenge always exists if we choose to pursue it, and what we value in ourselves is what makes anything rewarding.  It's not someone else's definitions of challenge or achievement you should be trying to meet, but your own.  Sub-optimal characters can give that to you.  The Plate of Argonnn can't.

[Solarverse]

9 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

No, by that logic you have to think about what you give for free and what comes with a cost. Even in the official CoH, a vast majority of the things were given to the players for free: most of the costume parts, powersets, etc, without any work required to have those things. So yes, it's okay to have to work for some things but not others. The big notion, though, is that when the status quo is that very few gates exist because the overwhelming community sentiment seems to be that many of the gates don't add value, implementing new gates has to be justified in an extremely solid manner and proved to benefit the players. 

 

Like in any democracy, it's the majority of those that go out there and cast their vote, though I'd be willing to put money on the line that the gamer population is significantly skewed to the casual side. I'll also have to disagree with you on the giving away things for free point, because I don't think we've ended up in a place where everything is given away for free. You don't get automatic instant 50s or full IO builds for free, you don't get accolades or a large badge collection for free and you sure as hell have to put in a good effort if you want to have a chance at something like a Werner ITF. Whatever has become "too easy" has been made up for with things that have become barely possible.

 

100% agree with this, especially the bolded part.

 Nobody gave a shit when the majority (since we are going off the players who post the forums) did not want these changes and much like I am having to plead my case against multiple people here, the people who wanted this changed were in the same position that I am in now. So the majority had no say so in those days but now they do I guess. It is what it is....to hell with it.

Like I said, I give up, man.

[DSorrow]

39 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 Nobody gave a shit when the majority (since we are going off the players who post the forums) did not want these changes and much like I am having to plead my case against multiple people here, the people who wanted this changed were in the same position that I am in now. So the majority had no say so in those days but now they do I guess.

We are not going off just the players who post on the forums, people can vote with their wallets just as well and if consecutive changes towards more casual gaming positively impact the bottom line, then the majority had a say and it was followed. Like I said, it's important to listen to and fulfill the wishes of the (apparent) majority,

1 hour ago, DSorrow said:

unless the developers have solid evidence to react differently

Research consistently shows that most gamers are casual. The audience is still probably mostly casual, so the majority had and still have a say, and I'm pretty sure most people (including the past and current devs) are aware of how (un)representative the forum regulars are. Nobody is arbitrarily changing the "rules" to wrong you, the fact is that most gamers have been casual for a long time and this is the audience most games have and continue to cater to.

 

39 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Like I said, I give up, man.

Safe travels.

Edited November 18, 2020 by DSorrow
typo

[Omega-202]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

 Nobody gave a shit when the majority (since we are going off the players who post the forums) did not want these changes and much like I am having to plead my case against multiple people here, the people who wanted this changed were in the same position that I am in now. So the majority had no say so in those days but now they do I guess. It is what it is....to hell with it.

Like I said, I give up, man.

Or, you were never in the majority and just thought you were.  Which is exactly the case.  Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.  

[jubakumbi]

9 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Or, you were never in the majority and just thought you were.  Which is exactly the case.  Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.  

This 1000x as the saying goes...

Just because a bunch of like minded people get together and talk about something, does make them a majority.

The ratio of forum-posters to players, when documented in every case I have every been able to find, show that the forum posters make up a tiny fraction of any actual play-base and do not have a clear ratio of representation to the playstyles and preferences of the player-base.

Forums just drag out the people mad at things and create echo chambers for them to rage against the world.

 

Forums are never a reliable reflection of the playerbase of games that I can find documented, they are, like Twitter, just noise that some people mistake for facts and evidence.

[Greycat]

Peeking in and seeing some comments, I just have to say here as I've said elsewhere...

 

It doesn't matter what the "forum posters" or "in game majority" says, when it comes to the direction of the game.

 

Game development is not a democracy. The devs are going to do what they feel is best for the health of the game - hopefully with a long-term outlook (which HC seems to have.) Some of those will be unpopular. They may revert or change things with feedback - but feedback is not "voting." So let me say again -  Game development is not a democracy.

 

And that's a good thing.

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Peeking in and seeing some comments, I just have to say here as I've said elsewhere...

 

It doesn't matter what the "forum posters" or "in game majority" says, when it comes to the direction of the game.

 

Game development is not a democracy. The devs are going to do what they feel is best for the health of the game - hopefully with a long-term outlook (which HC seems to have.) Some of those will be unpopular. They may revert or change things with feedback - but feedback is not "voting." So let me say again -  Game development is not a democracy.

 

And that's a good thing.

I agree, except I find it good nor bad, it just is what it is.

In the end, a small group of people choose how the game, any game, will get built/fixed/changed, even with multiple server groups.

 

IMO, looking at that as good or bad is simply asking for people to take sides over it, etc.

 

Discussing the ideas - Feedback - is fundamental, but just because 'they' did not use the idea you wanted, does not mean 'they' did not listen, it just means they chose something else, there is no good or bad, it's just what that small group chose to do.

I can think some of the choices made are really terrible, but most of the choices made seem to have been accepted by the playerbase, which is the real test.

(literally breaking the whole game aside, of course)

 

One of the things I think they have been smart to do is leave out the Gated content, but adding Badges for those that like to chase dopamine from game provided challenges.

The gated costumes on Live made me very unhappy, but also made me throw money at it - so IMO, it's a retail tactic, as I have had the same experience with every pay-for MMO, that has been marketed so well people think it's a playstyle.

 

WIthout VC funding and a real plan, it's all just a day dream anyway.

IMO, they should follow the lead of others in the business and continue to break down the Gates, like making all content level with your character, further breaking down the barriers between the three 'sides', etc., allowing the content that has already been made more accessible, much of that can be done now.

 

None of that, to me, is good or bad, it's reality.

[CrudeVileTerror]

If anything, I'd say "The Devs" are human beings.

Like all of us.  Like all people who work as game developers.*

And we have our biases.  We have our assumptions.  We have our deeply held beliefs.

Some people are more willing than others to listen to the opinions of other people.

Even while listening to the opinions of others; people's biases, assumptions, and beliefs will tint their comprehension and acceptance/denial of those opinions.

IDEALLY this will be a two-way street, and the communication will be active, such as a discourse.  Or, in a pinch, a debate where all parties are being respectful.

Whether there's legitimacy or funding, or not, the Devs here will still be people.

 

The most we can do as players and members of the community is to try and express our ideas clearly and in a format which the Devs find agreeable to receive, and to encourage them to communicate with us in return so that we may refine our feedback in to something productive.

If we're up for it, we can accept the criticisms of other players/community-members, and modify our own proposals or modify the language we used to express our proposals.

 

Taking things personally, though?   Getting in to arguments?

Well!  If someone thinks an idea you're passionate about is a dumb idea; it doesn't mean they think you're dumb (although, they might.  But it matters just about the same either way).

And even -if- the Devs (again, as people, so it's possible) hate you, or hate me, or hate some other person, and due to that hate are allowing a personal bias to get in the way of accepting a really great idea . . . 

*shrugs*

Accusing them of that doesn't really help, does it?

Blaming other players helps just as much, right?

I definitely "get it," though.  Especially when little things you notice might look like "evidence," and feed in to negative feelings related to the possibility that you're just not being listened to.

 

But we gotta circle back again to that first point in this message:

They are human beings.

We all are.

I'm going to try to operate with the understanding that the best thing we can do is keep that in mind whenever trying to post a suggestion here.

I recommend we all consider doing the same.

 

 

I think @Blackfeather has done a really wonderful job with the https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/22414-overwhelming-overpower-a-controller-inherent-buff-control-avs-and-gms/ thread.

If anyone ever wants an example of a really great way to handle a suggestion thread, I think this is an excellent example!   (Of course, the Devs' opinions matters more than mine.  I just really like Blackfeather's approach, and want to express some kudos.)

 

 

 

( * JUST YOU WAIT!   We're getting close!  We'll have an A.I.-developed game before much longer!  If it hasn't happened already, that is. )

[Blackfeather]

6 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I think @Blackfeather has done a really wonderful job with the https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/22414-overwhelming-overpower-a-controller-inherent-buff-control-avs-and-gms/ thread.

If anyone ever wants an example of a really great way to handle a suggestion thread, I think this is an excellent example!   (Of course, the Devs' opinions matters more than mine.  I just really like Blackfeather's approach, and want to express some kudos.)

Daaaaaaw, shucks! Thank you - though now I've gotta toot my horn on this other thread I've made! 🤣

 

EDIT: And of course, this pinned message is a nice general guideline on suggestion writing.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Blackfeather

[Naraka]

On 11/18/2020 at 11:23 AM, Luminara said:

 

Personal gratification is the only real reward.  Badges, titles, unique graphics and textures on gear, they're just acknowledgement from someone else.  You knowing what you did, how hard you worked, what hells you waded through, and you seeing the result or your efforts, of your perseverance and determination, that's what matters.  That's what playing less than god/goddess-like characters offers.  That's where you can find the challenge, and satisfaction.

 

I'm living in a 12'x16' cabin with no plumbing and no 110v electricity for my own gratification.  Not to impress you, not to garner respect from my nearest neighbor, not for pats on the back from my friends, not to "prove" anything to anyone, but for me.  There are no plaques celebrating me.  I have no gold stars decorating my walls.  My success isn't measured in the number of people who complement, or even notice, me.  It's what I get, inside, from living where and how I do, that makes it rewarding.  The measure of my success is my happiness, and the rewards I gain for doing this are innumerable and intangible.

 

Waiting for developers to make "challenging" or "rewarding" content is futile, because challenge always exists if we choose to pursue it, and what we value in ourselves is what makes anything rewarding.  It's not someone else's definitions of challenge or achievement you should be trying to meet, but your own.  Sub-optimal characters can give that to you.  The Plate of Argonnn can't.

Considering the surge of online discussion about depression and the much needing support people give out, you'd think it wouldn't be controversial that having goals and accomplishments can assist people with this hurdle.

 

Imagine telling someone who is suffering a lack of motivation that they don't need a pat on the back or a bit of validation to get them up and out to get stuff done. It's not about wanting other people to give you that back pat but rather the game to give more of them which isn't holding anyone hostage for it. 

 

In this example, giving players motivation to log in and play is similar. It's understandable some may see this as forcing players to do certain content but those players likely would do the content anyway, even begrudgingly or over time. Others might see it as just the push they are looking for to keep going or take a different path when they are trying to convince themselves to log in and play.

[EmmySky]

17 minutes ago, Naraka said:

...when they are trying to convince themselves to log in and play.

If you have to convince yourself to log in and play, well I just dont know what to tell you.  More shinies aren't going to hold your interest in the game once the new wears off, as it has all the other accomplishments already in the game.  Sometimes people need to go walk around the park, or call a friend on the phone, or even play a different game. 

 

I get antsy at work just counting the minutes til I get to come home and log in and play so I really dont understand people having to convince themselves to do so.  I mean, if it's not fun just take a break for a while and come back when you miss it and WANT to play.

[Naraka]

Just now, EmmySky said:

If you have to convince yourself to log in and play, well I just dont know what to tell you.  

And that's the kind of mentality people would lable as toxic. I'm not saying you are, just making the point. It's like telling a depressed person to just stop being depressed.

 

I feel, it'd be in your best interest to get people to log in to play, not bicker that some aspect is tied to completing some content and it's not just baseline.

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, EmmySky said:

If you have to convince yourself to log in and play, well I just dont know what to tell you.  More shinies aren't going to hold your interest in the game once the new wears off, as it has all the other accomplishments already in the game.  Sometimes people need to go walk around the park, or call a friend on the phone, or even play a different game. 

 

I get antsy at work just counting the minutes til I get to come home and log in and play so I really dont understand people having to convince themselves to do so.  I mean, if it's not fun just take a break for a while and come back when you miss it and WANT to play.

In a term as plainly as I can possibly put it, the game used to be rewarding, which was (random guess) 25% of the enjoyment of this game. Now, all of the unlocks you once got for completing certain missions are gone, which has taken 25% of the enjoyment of the game away. For example, Capes, Auras, the costume unlocks for Vangaurd and Cimerora, things like that. They did not add these unlocks to every mission or every task force, it was simply special costumes that may not be everyone's cup of tea. Those accomplishments were taken away and given out for free which means there is no more accomplishment rewards for doing those missions anymore, which kind of takes the fun out of it.
 

I would simply like to see a Task Force here and there, maybe two or three that is put out that grants similar rewards and if people do not want to play the content for them, they are welcome to purchase them at a vendor. But even that is apparently asking for too much. So at this point, I feel if we can't even reach a compromise, then there really is nothing to talk about. Nobody wants to compromise, they want things their way and their way only. So at this point I just have to drop the mic and walk off the stage since it is clear no solution can be reached by way of compromise. All I can do is hope the Devs read this and feel that it actually would be a good idea because maybe there are enough players who play who would appreciate this and they add it anyway. All I can do is cross my fingers and hope.

[jubakumbi]

Why would anyone think that a fundamental, ages old, MMO issue would get solved on a forum for fan server of a dead game?

Why would anyone think that the people on the forum would gather around any specific idea?

 

For an example that shoots down 'nobody' willing to comprimise, adding in the costume parts as TF rewards that can be acquired with some other in game currency would work fine to me - so there is a comprimise, right there.

 

The issue is attitude and outlook.

If you choose to view things as having been taken away, nothing anyone else says can change that outlook.

My outlook is simply that things changed, rather than things were taken from me, especially in a video game.

 

As for the toxic guilt trip someone is trying to lay on the thread that by not encouraging someone to play the game through changing and adding content, anyone is somehow dimissing mental health issues, I wish I could post what I really think...but I will try and do it in a way that will last longer...

While these games are a great tool and coping mechanism for a large number of at-risk people, it is not some idea that can be used as a weapon to make people think a group of fans running a dead game need to make changes to accomodate people with issues, when they are lucky to even keep it running.

That kind of guilt trip is exactly the reason I refer to the 'community' of this game in the negative terms I often use.

Edited November 19, 2020 by jubakumbi

[Luminara]

30 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Considering the surge of online discussion about depression and the much needing support people give out, you'd think it wouldn't be controversial that having goals and accomplishments can assist people with this hurdle.

 

Temporarily, within the context of the discussion, that being in a video game, and potentially to the detriment of finding long-term ways to overcome their mental state.  A carrot on a stick doesn't fix depression.  A short-term goal doesn't fix depression.  A gold star doesn't fix depression.  A video game doesn't fix depression, it distracts the player from the problems which cause their suffering.  A distraction isn't a cure.

 

37 minutes ago, Naraka said:

Imagine telling someone who is suffering a lack of motivation that they don't need a pat on the back or a bit of validation to get them up and out to get stuff done.

 

A pat on the back isn't what everyone needs when they're depressed.  Sometimes it's the opposite of what they need.  Motivation has to come from within, and yes, it can be encouraged, but that doesn't solve the problems they're having.

 

41 minutes ago, Naraka said:

It's not about wanting other people to give you that back pat but rather the game to give more of them which isn't holding anyone hostage for it.

 

The game has finite rewards.  Every game has finite rewards.  Expecting an infinite supply of rewards, motivations, pats on the back, is pointless because it's impossible.  And relying on finite rewards to "fix" depression is guaranteed to fail.  One has to find personal gratification within the structure of a game, an inner need to continue playing, in order for it to be fulfilling, and unless it's fulfilling, it's not helping, it's just providing a delay in dealing with the problems which caused the depression.

 

45 minutes ago, Naraka said:

In this example, giving players motivation to log in and play is similar. It's understandable some may see this as forcing players to do certain content but those players likely would do the content anyway, even begrudgingly or over time. Others might see it as just the push they are looking for to keep going or take a different path when they are trying to convince themselves to log in and play.

 

And others are going to get their temporary distraction from the real problems in their lives, then go back to being depressed when it runs out.

 

I've spent more than 40 years of my life fighting mental illness.  I've learned that distractions aren't solutions to depression, finding personal gratification and inner happiness are.  No-one can truly change the way we feel, stop the pain, make the voices in the rain go away, except ourselves, and we can't do that with short-term, temporary fixes.  Personal gratification, taking satisfaction in something that doesn't require external validation, self-acceptance, those are how we combat depression effectively.  Badges and five mission story arcs and new animations, those are digital medication.  Real healing starts inside.

 

And sometimes, we can't be healed.  Some of us are going to live with our demons forever.  Understanding those demons and accepting that we're just not going to be "normal" does a million times more good than a reward or distraction in a video game.

 

So no, I'm not going to agree with you, on any of your points.  People suffering from depression need real assistance for their real problems, not the ephemeral relief of a pat on the back by video game developers.