Mind Control

[Laenan]

Hey everyone!

 

I'm sure this has been brought up before but it would nice to see Mass Confusion in Mind Control buffed in some way. Right now the capstone power in the set is basically a worse version of Seeds of Confusion. Lowering the recharge on Mass Confusion to match Seeds would be a welcome and easy change. I do get that Mass Confusion has some advantages over Seeds, but the long recharge and the lack of AoE containment do hurt the set in the current game.

 

(I also wouldn't mind if the set moved Mass Confusion down in the order and removed the single target confuse in favor of something different but that's a much messier change to the powerset.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Yup yup!

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/22755-weekly-discussion-70-t9s-part-2/

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Laenan said:

(I also wouldn't mind if the set moved Mass Confusion down in the order and removed the single target confuse in favor of something different but that's a much messier change to the powerset.

I would. I want to keep my specifically chosen ST confuses.  They're exceptionally useful, especially early.

 

Large aoe controls in general need recharge looked at, as I recall, though.

[tidge]

I'm currently playing a Mind-primary Controller (leveling up with no XP boosting), with these powers taken, along with a short comment for each:

 

T2 Levitate: I'm still not used to the delayed application of damage. Thematically it is ok, but in game turns I am nonplussed that I often 'waste' a power cast on an mob that will be KOed anyway.

 

T3 Dominate: I have no issues, but I have this loaded with %damage procs. If procs change, I worry that a character like this will proceed even slower through content.

 

T4 Confuse: See note (*1) below

 

T5 Mass Hypnosis: While leveling up, I have the %Energy Font ATO proc in this power; I find that the Energy Font takes some aggro, albeit for a short time. I'm not sure if this is staying in the final build or not. I'm leaning towards keeping it, but I honestly don't cast it that often.

 

T7 Total Domination:  This is IMO the money-piece of the set. I can understand why the recharge is what it is: while shorter recharge time (see note *2 below) would be appreciated, but my real issue is that it is a zero-damage hold. since Dominate is ranged damage,  Total Domination should also do Targeted AoE damage, and accept IOs to increase damage.

 

T9 Mass Confusion: I have no real issues with this power, except to see note (*2)

 

I don't know that both of the following two suggestions should be implemented, but I feel like one of them ought to be seriously considered.

 

(*1) Generally, I think that increasing the Magnitude of all of the controls (even to 3.5) would help Mind Control at all levels. Every one of the controls requires a to-hit check, and even in the Jack E model of a hero facing a small number of enemies-plus-a-boss, it would be nice if the controls would actually work on Bosses without having to 'risk' a second application to get the necessary magnitude to apply a status to a boss. Mind Control doesn't have much else going on in terms of defeating enemies (limited damage, no debuffs), so I don't feel that giving them MOAR POWER against bosses is radically different than giving DPS Archetypes MOAR DAMAGE!

 

(*2)  I honestly don't remember the days of Live which changed the recharge times on controls (I was struggling with tanks, and my Controllers never got to the level cap), but I feel that the Mass AoE controls are analogous to the Aim/Build Up and (T9) Nuke powers of Blasters. The AoE controls should have lowered recharge times so that the Controller actually feels like it is living up to its role as an AT. I personally don't need the AoE controls all lowered to 90 seconds, but even lowering the 4 minute recharges to 3 minutes would improve things such that a Mind Controller could move between consecutive enemy groups (at 0x1) and stand a chance at having your 'money powers' available.

 

 

[Uun]

Right now, Mind Control works a lot better on dominators than it does on controllers. You don't have to worry about setting up containment, you can focus on controlling with your primary and dealing damage with your secondary, and with Domination up, you don't have to worry about building magnitude to mezz bosses. 

• IMO, Terrify is the money piece of the set, not Total Domination. It's a giant cone, it's available for every fight and it does decent damage. On a dominator with a cone attack in their secondary, it sets up a terrific 1-2 punch. For controllers, containment should be changed to include fear. This would give the set a non-sleep means of establishing AoE containment.
• I agree that some reduction of the recharge of the AoE holds is warranted. Not sure I agree that Total Domination should do damage. Other than Volcanic Gasses, none of the AoE holds currently do damage. I think there should be some secondary effect that gets applied to foes that aren't held. Some sets have this but many don't.
• I agree that some reduction of the recharge of Mass Confusion is warranted. I don't think that it's a worse version of Seeds of Confusion, simply by virtue of the fact that it doesn't draw aggro. With Domination up this is a really nasty power.
• The power that really needs to be fixed is Telekinesis. The endurance cost is silly, the radius is small and the 5-foe limit is low.

[tidge]

I'm a big fan of Fear, but one thing that disfavors them in my builds is their lack of a PVP or Superior (Purple) IO set. I personally feel that simply porting the Coercive Persuasion set for Confuse to serve as a Fear set, including a "Contagious Fear" proc, would be a great addition to the game. Single-target Fear powers could use such a piece to maintain utility at higher levels, and slotting such a piece in AoEs would help controllers with Magnitude.

[Vanden]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

Generally, I think that increasing the Magnitude of all of the controls (even to 3.5) would help Mind Control at all levels.

Mind Control is quite possibly the least compelling set to make this argument for; it has two different controls, Mesmerize and Levitate, that will work on bosses in one application. This lets you buy time for your second Dominate while it's recharging.

 

Playing a Mind Controller, you're likely to notice some issues with the set, it's true. However, only some of these issues are with Mind Control specifically, while some of the issues are problems with Control sets and their ATs in general. Those latter problems have to do with the value of AoE controls because of their recharge and duration, and the value of control overall in the current meta. I think it's best to address changes to Mind Control with that in mind, and not try to fix problems with Control sets in general by buffing Mind Control alone.

 

So, what are the problems with Mind Control, then? Well, it comes down almost entirely to lack of damage, both because it has no pet, and because it can't easily set up Containment. For the latter, an easy fix is to make Terrorize a valid status effect for containment, since Terrify is Mind's staple control. For direct application of damage, I think the best thing to do is to just make Mesmerize, Dominate, and Terrify follow the standard damage formula. This would result in a 32% increase in damage for Mesmerize, 64% for Dominate, and ~66% for Terrify. Also, remove the delay on applying the damage and -fly from Levitate; that's been pointless since issue 6, when ragdoll was added and meant enemies didn't hit the ground in sync with the damage timing any more.

 

Lastly, Mind is missing a control power analogous to the AoE stuns several sets get. I don't necessarily agree with the posters who think those should be standard, but an idea that's been posted in the past that I like is making it so using Levitate on the target of Telekinesis does an AoE stun. AoE stuns like Stalagmites and Flashfire have a 90-second recharge, 25-foot radius, and do a Scale 8 stun. I'm not really sure how robust the redirect technology in the powers system is; this would probably have to be coded as a special effect of Levitate, not Telekinesis, which could mean that Telekinesis's recharge couldn't be altered by using this effect. Naturally we wouldn't want to have to wait 90 seconds for Levitate to recharge every time we do this, so the effects of the stun would probably have to be scaled back to match Telekinesis's 60-second recharge; something like scale 6 stun, 20-foot radius, maybe.

[MTeague]

On 11/14/2020 at 3:09 PM, Laenan said:

(I also wouldn't mind if the set moved Mass Confusion down in the order and removed the single target confuse in favor of something different but that's a much messier change to the powerset.

Them's fightin' words. 🤬

[ninja surprise]

On 11/15/2020 at 1:15 PM, Vanden said:

Lastly, Mind is missing a control power analogous to the AoE stuns several sets get. I don't necessarily agree with the posters who think those should be standard, but an idea that's been posted in the past that I like is making it so using Levitate on the target of Telekinesis does an AoE stun. AoE stuns like Stalagmites and Flashfire have a 90-second recharge, 25-foot radius, and do a Scale 8 stun. I'm not really sure how robust the redirect technology in the powers system is; this would probably have to be coded as a special effect of Levitate, not Telekinesis, which could mean that Telekinesis's recharge couldn't be altered by using this effect. Naturally we wouldn't want to have to wait 90 seconds for Levitate to recharge every time we do this, so the effects of the stun would probably have to be scaled back to match Telekinesis's 60-second recharge; something like scale 6 stun, 20-foot radius, maybe.

I think it'd be groovy to bump Levitate into Mass Levitate, or convert Mass Hypnosis into Mass Stun - an AoE Stun that does damage like the new Headache mechanic that's coming out in Sonic.

[...]

1 hour ago, ninja surprise said:

I think it'd be groovy to bump Levitate into Mass Levitate, or convert Mass Hypnosis into Mass Stun - an AoE Stun that does damage like the new Headache mechanic that's coming out in Sonic.

Mass hypnosis is a non-notify sleep.

 

Many people would be extremely upset with such a change. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Vooded
Spelling

[ninja surprise]

16 hours ago, Vooded said:

Mass hypnosis is a non-notify sleep.

 

Many people would be extremely upset with such a change. 

Yep I know. It's just lame when the only AoE damage is "once every 30 seconds". But that's why I've never gotten Mind out of the teens. I'd rather play a set that does more damage.

[...]

On 11/17/2020 at 11:59 AM, ninja surprise said:

Yep I know. It's just lame when the only AoE damage is "once every 30 seconds". But that's why I've never gotten Mind out of the teens. I'd rather play a set that does more damage.

Yes, mind is very low damage and that should probably be looked at.

[Uun]

21 hours ago, Vooded said:

Yes, mind is very low damage and that should probably be looked at.

This is really only an issue for controllers, as dominators don't rely on the primary for damage. Prior to pets, Mind does more damage than Ice, Earth, Dark or Electric. It has 3 ST attacks (compared to 2 for most sets) and 1 AoE fear that does much more damage than the AoE immobilize most sets get. The problem is that Mind's primary means of setting up AoE containment is a sleep on a 45 second recharge (compared to 8 seconds for the AoE immobilizes). This makes dealing damage cumbersome for controllers. Having fear grant containment would help with this. After pets, Mind is at a disadvantage. While Mass Confusion was intended to replace the pet in Mind, there are now 2 other sets with AoE confuses (on shorter recharges) that also get pets. My recommendations: 

• add a damage component to Telekinesis and change the mechanics of the power (reduce endurance cost, increase radius, increase maximum number of foes)
• have fear grant containment
• reduce recharge of Mass Confusion to 120 or 180 seconds

Edited November 19, 2020 by Uun
clarity

[Greycat]

24 minutes ago, Uun said:

 The problem is that Mind's only means of setting up AoE containment is a sleep on a 45 second recharge (compared to 8 seconds for the AoE immobilizes).

Did you forget Total Domination? (AOE hold.) Longer recharge, though, granted.

[Uun]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

Did you forget Total Domination? (AOE hold.) Longer recharge, though, granted.

This is the same for all control sets. I was trying to highlight where Mind differs.

[Greycat]

3 minutes ago, Uun said:

This is the same for all control sets. I was trying to highlight where Mind differs.

Ahh. The wording didn't read that way for me.

[Mezmera]

I'm going to have to go in the opposite direction with this power, for doms at least.  I think Seeds of Confusion is OP as all get out and didn't get that rebalancing that Mass Confusion got way back in the day.  There's other small tweaks I'd like to see in Mind Control but nothing so game breaking as a fast recharging Mass Confusion.  

 

If it were up to me I'd reorganize the first 5 powers so that the Hold is the t2 power like all the other control sets and then I'd move Confuse up to t3.  I'd also up the limit of targets on telekinesis from 5 to 8.  That'd pretty much butter my biscuit for Mind Control.   

[Mopery]

As it is literally "Mind Control", I've always thought that the t9 should allow the user to turn any mob(up to boss level) into their pet until either its defeat, release, or until used again on another mob(at which point the previously controlled pet would become an enemy once again).

 

I know, I know, this would require a ton of coding and whatnot, but I can dream...

[Mezmera]

2 hours ago, Mopery said:

As it is literally "Mind Control", I've always thought that the t9 should allow the user to turn any mob(up to boss level) into their pet until either its defeat, release, or until used again on another mob(at which point the previously controlled pet would become an enemy once again).

 

I know, I know, this would require a ton of coding and whatnot, but I can dream...

Um you do realize that's what Mass Confusion does eh?  You also have the regular confuse where you can have as many "pets" as you like which that power is always accessible so...

[Mopery]

2 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Um you do realize that's what Mass Confusion does eh?  You also have the regular confuse where you can have as many "pets" as you like which that power is always accessible so...

Um you do realize that Mass Confusion does not turn them into a pet eh? Just like regular Confuse, Mass Confusion does not turn them into literal "pets", which is what I was suggesting so...

Edited November 20, 2020 by Mopery
Speelling

[Mezmera]

4 hours ago, Mopery said:

Um you do realize that Mass Confusion does not turn them into a pet eh? Just like regular Confuse, Mass Confusion does not turn them into literal "pets", which is what I was suggesting so...

Your confused targets will not attack you and instead will direct their attacks towards every target not on your side.  Just like all controller and dom pets you can't directly control what they do, just that you can summon them and they attack enemies in the vicinity.  

 

You're right confuse is not the same as having a pet ability.  It's much better.  You can have as many targets on your side as you like to attack other targets, you can confuse Raider force fields to use their bubble buffs not to mention other buffs you can obtain from other factions.  Confuse powers are so much better than having a "pet".  

Edited November 20, 2020 by Mezmera

[Mopery]

2 hours ago, Mezmera said:

You're right confuse is not the same as having a pet ability.

We agree!

2 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Confuse powers are so much better than having a "pet".

I agree with you, Confuse is quite a bit better than just having a pet or pets.

 

What I was suggesting had little to do with making Mind Control more powerful or even better. I was suggesting giving the powerset a truly unique power. Maybe it could affect a single boss, and/or 2 Lt's, amd/or 3 minions, which would be "permanently" confused, even allowing them to exit instances with you. Something akin to what the Purple Man did to Jessica Jones(minus the rapey bit). I think it would be fun to mentally enslave ANY enemy up to Boss level and keep them around for a while.

 

As I said though, the coding to enable such a power is doubtless more than anyone is willing to do, so it will likely remain just my dream.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Mopery
Time dilation

[Spectre7878]

I  think telekinesis should be changed to a

mass levitate  Or

Propel

[ninja surprise]

Total Domination should be an AoE Dominate, with damage.

Telekinesis should do ticks of crushing damage, like Crushing Field from Grav, and the other AoE immobs. Then you could do a mass sleep to set containment and Telekinesis them half to death before running out of endurance.

But then you could Terrify them and run away.