Weekly Discussion 70: T9's Part 2

[GM Miss]

Hey guys! Last week we built our own patron/Mentor Pools! Check this thread on our forums: to see the suggestions from last week and from all of our previous discussions too!

 

Weekly discussion 70 Week 9/27/20-10/03/20:

YOU VOTED: Let's talk about more T9s: this week is Controller/Dominator T9s!

 

❓Things to think about:

>Check out powers here: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Primary_Power_Sets

>How do the pets compare to one another?

>Are they over powered or underpowered?

>What would you change and what do you love? w
Let's Chat 😄

 

[Piecemeal]

Hey.

 

Jack Frost needs some love.

 

Just sayin'.

[FoulVileTerror]

So, Controller Pets . . . and Mass Confusion?

 

I think Mass Confusion is the only one which needs a good hard look at, and that's mostly because Seeds of Confusion absolutely decimates it.

[Piecemeal]

1 minute ago, FoulVileTerror said:

So, Controller Pets . . . and Mass Confusion?

 

I think Mass Confusion is the only one which needs a good hard look at, and that's mostly because Seeds of Confusion absolutely decimates it.

I find Mass Confusion to be fine, because its range works better for safety. Until you uberslot Seeds, it can be a risky click.

[Ura Hero]

For the love of God, please fix the Phantasm AI.  His AI is the dumbest of the dumb.  Lloyd and Harry got nothing on this guy.

[kiramon]

1 hour ago, Piecemeal said:

I find Mass Confusion to be fine, because its range works better for safety. Until you uberslot Seeds, it can be a risky click.

you have how many slots between level 8 and level 32?

[Alchemystic]

Remove Telekinesis from Mind Control

Make Mass Confusion a T8

Make Penny Yin's 'Psionic Nexus' pet the new T9

 

... I didn't put a lot of thought into this.

[Troo]

Is the goal to keep T9s set defining?

[FoulVileTerror]

Excellent question, @Troo.

What -should- a Tier 9 be?  Should they be "all that AND a bag of chips," or is the Tier 9 "just another Power?"

[Zepp]

Confusion, in general, needs another look. The perceived loss of XP (usually nowhere near what people think it is) has made it a very unpopular power. Furthermore, seeing as it is the Mind Control Troller's T9 pet it should have less of an XP penalty (and possibly also contribute to containment - along with fear).

A general issue most visible with Mind Control is the excessively long timers. With Mind Control, the T9 is more of an occasional support power whereas with most sets it is a constant companion. The other exceptions are Electric and Fire, whose pets are more apt to die. While reducing the timer would not have a meaningful impact on most of the sets (unless you are at the edge of your competency and your constant companion continually tastes the floor) but would make EC, FC, & MC more consistent in terms of T9 benefits. (This is a symptom of the recharge nerfing of Control and Support sets in general, making them require much more global recharge than DpS sets in general. However, this is a specific area where it is quite clear that reducing recharge by 50% would be reasonable).

Edited September 30, 2020 by Zepp

[chi1701]

Not sure how to you could change some t9 controller abilities without upsetting masterminds.

[Eldyem]

Sometimes I find it really difficult to tell if my pets are actually doing anything valuable; for example, Gremlins often feel like they're just kind of causing havoc and not doing much in the way of real damage, I've never really given a second thought to whatever it is Fly Trap is ever doing, since Seeds of Confusion is always rolling and Carrion Creepers are often as well, and I'm pretty sure Umbra Beast just howls on a loop.

 

Singularity is really good at what it does, and Fire Imps are also really good at what they do, but I often feel like the other pets are just there in a lot of content. It's way too late now, but I think putting pets at the end of control sets was something of a mistake design-wise that we're just sort of stuck with now.

 

And the difference in utility between Seeds and Mass Confusion doesn't justify a 4x longer cooldown. I would personally say Mass Confusion's CD should be half, if not a quarter, of what it is right now.

[DSorrow]

Give me Mind Control with Mass Confusion at 60 seconds cooldown (same as Seeds of Confusion) and I'll go roll a new Mind Controller right now.

[Zepp]

6 minutes ago, DSorrow said:

Give me Mind Control with Mass Confusion at 60 seconds cooldown (same as Seeds of Confusion) and I'll go roll a new Mind Controller right now.

Good point. I was gonna say that TAoE tend to be more efficient than cones, but considering the cast time difference on Mass Confusion, that seems close enough to balanced.

So, to amend my previous suggestions:
Monolithic pets - reduce timer to 120s.
Trilithic pets - reduce timer to 90s.
Mass Confusion - reduce timer to 60s.

Add Confuse and Fear to containment.

Confuse xp - change from 1/4 to 1/8 "stolen" xp.

[Grouchybeast]

4 hours ago, chi1701 said:

Not sure how to you could change some t9 controller abilities without upsetting masterminds.

In the same patch, buff the Alpha incarnate level shift so that it makes T1 and T2 pets con at the same level as the MM.  The MMs will be so giddy with joy that they won't notice anything that happens to controllers.

[Six-Six]

I seldom take the T9s that have a crash to them. Sure it can be mitigated, but doing so usually involves investing in another power and additional slots that can be invested elsewhere.

T9s or T8s that provide self rez are also skipped. I plan my build to not die during a fight, so having a self rez power choice available in the late 30s when I'm considerably stronger is counter intuitive for me. I can and do simply invest in the Return to Battle power from P2W lady. 1 million inf is a less of a premium than a power pick.

AT-Specific:
Blasters and Peacebringers. Both primary and secondary T9s are awesome in almost any power, and nigh mandatory IMHO
Scrappers and Brutes. Above comments pertain to some of the secondary T9s. Warshades and Sentinels, even the secondary T8s.
Dominators and Corruptors. I haven't tried all of the powers, but most of them are fine by me. Some could use a bit of love, but I take them and use them nonetheless. Additional note on Elec Assault Dominator's secondary T9: they get another pet that I feel is rather unfair and inconsistent with the other powers. (other dominator pets like Jack, gremlins and stone etc. have their shortcomings and misgivings, but I still like them, take them, and work with them in their current state)
Spiders are fine as they are... unless there is hope for more spider pets. I likes cute spider pets. 😃

I have not played Defenders, Controllers, MMs, Stalkers, or Tankers enough to comment on theirs.



 

[Hew]

53 minutes ago, Six Six said:

I seldom take the T9s that have a crash to them. Sure it can be mitigated, but doing so usually involves investing in another power and additional slots that can be invested elsewhere.

T9s or T8s that provide self rez are also skipped. I plan my build to not die during a fight, so having a self rez power choice available in the late 30s when I'm considerably stronger is counter intuitive for me. I can and do simply invest in the Return to Battle power from P2W lady. 1 million inf is a less of a premium than a power pick.
 

 

This. I feel that many t9s are anything but capstones, and frankly, kind of stupid. As many will recall, t9 nukes for blasters had to be reworked, because _nobody used them_ due to the end cost. This notion that some absurd limitation has to be put on what is a capstone is, frankly, absurd.

 

If the bulk of my powers come into fruition below 32 for primary (some lower than 26!!!), or 32 or less for a secondary, then there is a problem. Is slotting and set ios part of the problem? Maybe, maybe not. But frankly, capstones just suck. A lot of times I just use them for muling, if at all.

 

I want a capstone, whatever it is, whereever it is, to be a fundamental part of my late game char, not something rarely used, if at all. Again, if my late game play style is identical to my mid 20s style (no new powers, no new capabilities, short of epic pools and incarnates), then t9s can be considered an epic failure.

 

[kiramon]

Umbra Beast -  Aroooooooooooo.

Animate Stone - Slow turd man.

Gremlins - Useless

Imps - People love em.

Singularity - The real winner here

Jack Frost - Not so useful

Mass Confusion - Way too long of a Recharge

Fly Trap - More useful than some others

 

 

I'm not sure why Voltaic Sentinel is Electric Assault's T9... 

[FoulVileTerror]

Oh yes,  Almost forgot.

Umbra Beast.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/19010-weekly-discussion-50-darkness-control/?tab=comments#comment-211986

Still applies.

[Obus Form]

My only comment is for T9 pet survivibility:

I think all T9 pets (Mastermind pets, Defender primary power pool pets too) should be treated similar to WoW hunter's pets, i.e. immune to enemy mobs AOE attacks and take 90% reduced damage from enemy mob single-target attacks.  Recasting long-recharge T9 pets just to watch the pet die to 1 or 2 boss attacks makes many of those pets a non-useable power compared to other Archetype Primary Power Pool T9s, especially Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, Corrupters, Blasters, etc. 

 

That's all.

[HelBlaiz]

Other control sets get their pet essentially 24/7 (barring untimely deaths between casts) but Mass Confusion is up at best every minute and a half or so and only affects one fight. That's no good.

[Myrmidon]

Water is wet,

the sky is blue;
Most armor T9s are still 💩💩💩.

 

 

[Alchemystic]

I suppose one other idea would be to turn Mass Confusion into an anchor-style toggle that confuses all foes around the target, but has a high endurance upkeep. The recharge would be in-line with most mez/debuff toggles of it's kind.

[Replacement]

Get rid of the XP penalty from Confusion.  It's so dated.

You can add other weaker penalties, like no xp unless you (or a group member) at least tag the enemy.

But I don't see why a Mind Controller is entitled to any less xp than a Mastermind.

 

That's the best buff to Mass Confusion, for me at least.

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, Hew said:

 

This. I feel that many t9s are anything but capstones, and frankly, kind of stupid. As many will recall, t9 nukes for blasters had to be reworked, because _nobody used them_ due to the end cost. This notion that some absurd limitation has to be put on what is a capstone is, frankly, absurd.

 

"Nobody used them?" Not sure when this was. I think I've always seen blasters with nukes. 

 

Defenders... 

 

Here's my thing with T9s. I don't mind the cost of a crash - as long as the buff, or damage, or what have you is worth it. I *like* "You can have extreme power, but it has a price." Defender nukes weren't worth the crash, with the damage they put out (or didn't) back in the day. Going crashless was appropriate for them. 

 

The issues with T9s *now* basically are "Incarnate system" and "IOs." T9s that cap you aren't worth the cost *now* thanks to "well, without much effort I can ramp up my defenses to ridiculous levels." Nukes having a cost like that don't work when everyone can nuke (with a higher target cap) early on in the Incarnate tree. But that's a whole *other* discussion that's been had time and time again about "the game being made easier" and "homogenization." 

 

Personally, I'd love to have, and keep, T9s that have a cost, so you have to consider if you want to use them *now,* and that are *worth* that cost. But with the current environment, finding what that effect (that's worth a cost) is, that can't be replicated by throwing a little INF into IOs... I don't know.