Weekly Discussion 78: Incarnate Powers - a review of ultimate power!

[Six-Six]

@khy Yes! I would even settle for a Hercules Class. But please, more mechs: Vanguard Heavy, 5th Column Zenith Warcry, or a smaller not-kaiju-class Council Warwalker. 

[Sakura Tenshi]

To be honest, much as I do love mech pets (I honestly wish the Assault Bot was like, twenty percent to one hundred percent bigger), I think some some lore pets for the same faction might need to be broken up to allow for people who want BIG, BEAUTIFUL BOTS and those who might want something more grounded.

 

To be honest you could make three separate lorepets out of PPD alone (PPD normals, PPD SWAT, and PPD 'Mechs' which would include hardsuits and robots) just for an example. No reason we couldn't theoretically make a 'Vanguard Sword' lore pet path that includes an HVAS boss pet.

[khy]

I can agree with those sentiments. For myself, much as I love the current supply of Lore pets the options for 'paramilitary themed' characters is severely lacking. Hence why I'd love it if Knives of Artemis or Malta were available. I'm a huuuuuuge fan of theming on my Lore choices.

[pyrocumulus]

14 hours ago, Kazuuk said:

If you don't like incarnate powers, just play the vast majority of the games content which occurs 1-49.

My issue, as a player that vastly concentrates on the 1-49 leveling game (probably 90-95% of my total play time), is that incarnate powers bleed into the level 35-50 game and overshadow it badly. Playing a vanilla character in any of the capstone TFs, content that was designed for you to learn to master, feels like no matter how carefully you structure your build to squeeze every drop of efficiency out of it or how skilfully you can play your class, it still becomes the 'Stand back and watch the incarnates' show. I find leveling 40+ in any team content at all to be significantly less fun because of this. I should feel like I'm really mastering my character and rounding out their final few powers and sets and it's all just irrelevant when someone breaks out a Ravager lore pet.

 

I would like to see expanded Challenge options to disable Incarnate powers and have a wide variety of 'Master Of' badges associated with playing under this challenge condition. This means I could recruit for a badging run knowing that I could test out my ability to really build and play my primary and secondary without OMGWTFIONJUDGEMENT spam making my build decisions pointless. The player community would be just as free to play in standard conditions with full Incarnate power as they like, but this would provide an incentive to have an alternative. Possibly there could even be an accolade badge for achieving every L50 TF/SF (excepting Tinpex) without Incarnate powers (something like 'Refused the Call').

[tidge]

I thought I'd add this bit that is probably obvious to most players: I almost always default to Ion Judgement because it is practically a no-brainer when it comes to targeting, because of the 'jumping' between enemies and the quasi-random positioning of enemies (aggroed or not, running away or not). The only subtlety I've observed with the power is to be careful not to target a teleporting enemy with it, because they will separate themselves from any other potential targets.

 

I do like to pick judgement powers based on 'flavor', but the utility of Ion Judgement is a cut above the rest.

[Replacement]

I'm not saying this is a good idea, just idle conjecture about what Incarnates could have been.  This may have turned out terrible and frustrating, but I muse all the same:

 

I find myself wondering what it would have been like if the Incarnate stuff was all a mode change, like a Kheldian shapeshift.  And so the different Incarnate slots would represent templates of stat and archetype. 

 

And then perhaps it would be a sort of gameplay prompt or minigame where Incarnation is something you do in response to a situation. 

That situation could basically be something like a reverse quantum gunner unit - one that is lethal and unchallenged by standard mode players.  Perhaps a special rank classification and an aura around a regular unit that flags it to ignore most stuff a player throws its way.  So then assuming their spawn incidence rate increases with number of incarnate players on the team, when you see them, that's your cue that at least one person needs to give up their normal powers and role to handle the Incarnate threat instead.  Of course, since the Incarnate powers themselves are varied, you might still have roles to fill within the Incarnate bubble.

Under this incarnation, I'm imagining you could choose to ascend more or less at any time, but the powers you are granted would be "just ok" against normal threats.  

 

Other gameplay prompts that could be done instead.

Something like Domination. Build bar and unleash for a while. Or a simple toggle with a max duration lower than its unenhanceable recharge.  In this version, you keep your other powers.

The only true advantage in this over live is the feeling of a true moment of glory for players to continually come back for.

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Replacement

[Kazuuk]

4 hours ago, pyrocumulus said:

My issue, as a player that vastly concentrates on the 1-49 leveling game (probably 90-95% of my total play time), is that incarnate powers bleed into the level 35-50 game and overshadow it badly. Playing a vanilla character in any of the capstone TFs, content that was designed for you to learn to master, feels like no matter how carefully you structure your build to squeeze every drop of efficiency out of it or how skilfully you can play your class, it still becomes the 'Stand back and watch the incarnates' show. I find leveling 40+ in any team content at all to be significantly less fun because of this. 

You should report the exemplared to level 35 incarnates for hacking as it is literally impossible to be exemplared below 45 and using incarnate abilities.   I would suggest an edit to your post to be less hyperbolic.  

[pyrocumulus]

Just now, Kazuuk said:

You should report the exemplared to level 35 incarnates for hacking as it is literally impossible to be exemplared below 45 and using incarnate abilities.   I would suggest an edit to your post to be less hyperbolic.  

Level 35 is the lowest level for ITF. If you attempt to run one at L35-44 you will struggle to form and keep an 8-man team unless you agree to give the TL position to a incarnate and sidekick to them.

[Kazuuk]

3 minutes ago, pyrocumulus said:

Level 35 is the lowest level for ITF. If you attempt to run one at L35-44 you will struggle to form and keep an 8-man team unless you agree to give the TL position to a incarnate and sidekick to them.

In that case, you're running 45+ content.  Sounds like the choice is there for that TF, it just isn't popular with the playerbase.  

[drbuzzard]

On 11/22/2020 at 12:19 PM, Heraclea said:

My suggestions would be to:

 

 - Get rid of the Shards path entirely.  The shards are currently only used for Alpha components, all of which can be crafted by the Threads path at well.  Offering the incarnate rewards for TF completion could also be gotten rid of; those things are treacherous, traps for the new 50, who may not be aware of how limited their usefulness is.  If something like that is still offered, I'd just offer a reward of empyrean merits instead, with an empyrean bonus reward for the weekly strike force target.

 

I'm 100% behind this. I've made suggestions somewhat relevant to this before (believe I suggested doing away with the limitation of the 10 for 10 shard to thread swap per day). Shards are a relic of the original incarnate design where every tier of slots would have a different form of salvage just so things would drag out as long as possible. This isn't the case here at all with veteran levels, so this relic of that era might as well just go away.

 

Oh, and as an aside, I simply don't understand people complaining about judgment being too powerful. I have to wonder if any of them have actually teamed with a blaster before. A blaster who likes to nuke can have theirs up ever 40 or so seconds doing appreciably more damage than Judgement. Heck, my archery blaster drops rain of arrows which does about the same as judgement every 17 seconds. Heck, Sentinel nukes are pretty close to Judgement in damage and I have those up on all my sentinels in the low 20 second range. Judgement is 90 seconds of recharge which cannot be reduced. The only big advantage to Judgement is target count.

 

As for other suggestions, interface is really odd and may need some rebalancing. A number of the secondary effects are practically negligible, and degenerative stands out head and shoulders above the rest. Personally I'd like it if the others got a boost instead of swatting degenerative.

 

Hybrid- the Support option is exceedingly weak. It is really out of whack with what the rest of them do for you. I think I did craft it on one of my alts, but I know better now. Even on a defender you can just do better with melee for example. I know the dev team is cautious about too much stacking buffs/debuffs, but this is incarnate, and effectively this power amounts to being a trap which wastes threads and salvage.

[Chris24601]

20 hours ago, Kazuuk said:

I would STRONGLY urge the devs to consider that the opinion of this thread does not match the in game community at all.  Keep in mind, only a statistically insignificant portion of the player base even reads here, let alone posts.

Then we should also point out that only a statistically insignificant portion of the playerbase is even running Incarnates at a given time (seriously, compare the total number of toons to the number of level 50 toons and also that not every 50 is incarnated and even those that are aren’t universally equipped with t4s or even have all their slots unlocked).

 

Why should we consider what this insignificant minority wants when it’s harming the game experience overall?

 

In this latest issue they nerfed the hell out of Titan Weapons and Tactical Arrow because they felt they were unbalancing everything regardless of how many argued that keeping an 80’ range on a power wouldn’t break the game.

 

If an extra 20’ range on a t1 power is unbalancing enough to get a nerf regardless of user sentiment then WHY THE HECK shouldn’t the single most unbalancing set of mechanics in the game NOT get a serious balance pass and wide array of nerfs?

 

Because you happen to like it and are trying to deflect the sentiments that the incarnate powers need to be looked at by claiming its not actually representative?

 

Nice try, but no.

 

My first choice would be to actually cull the entire incarnate system from the game and retool the Incarnate content that does exist to account for this (remove the level shifts from the opponents for example, since players won’t have them either). At best, keep the Alpha Slot only (sans level shift) as a level 50 capstone.*

 

My second choice would be to limit them exclusively to Incarnate content and level 50 content where an “Incarnate” difficulty toggle has been activated (and which adds level shifts and other boosts to all opponents in the missions).

 

My third choice would be to allow only one Incarnate power to be active at a time (with a 5 minute timer on changing which is active) outside of Incarnate content.

 

But those are my personal preferences. Frankly, I think the best thing that ever happened to City of Heroes was it being shut down before the grindy Endgame system could be fully implemented so that, for the most part, the focus of the game remains on all the content you experience on the climb to 50 rather than solely on a handful of endgame raids and the notion that 1-50 are just the dues you pay to get to the real game (note how many MMOs with that mindset have monetized bypassing the original content precisely because all their focus has been on the endless grind of max level and upping the level cap to start it all over again).

 

My main interest in rebalancing/nerfing Incarnate powers is that their existence makes creating a full range of content nearly impossible for the current small volunteer dev team (one of the reasons I believe their new mission content has been primarily in the 15-35 level range... no incarnates and, pre-level 27 not even much IO-set slotting to speak of).

 

Basically, I think incarnate content takes way too much work (there’s too great a disparity between a fresh 50 and a fully t4’d level 50 to figure out a sweet spot on difficulty) so I’d favor any changes needed to make new mission content in the level 45-50 range easier to develop.

 

* I do think some of the Incarnate powers could be repurposed by rebalancing them and making them into a new Patron Power Pool (the original mission arc you used to unlock the Alpha slot becoming the Patron unlock mission for the Incarnate patron) where the five power picks are retooled Judgement, Interface, Destiny, Lore and Hybrid powers (rescaled to normal ancillary pool values) complete with slotting options.

[Kazuuk]

21 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

Then we should also point out that only a statistically insignificant portion of the playerbase is even running Incarnates at a given time (seriously, compare the total number of toons to the number of level 50 toons and also that not every 50 is incarnated and even those that are aren’t universally equipped with t4s or even have all their slots unlocked).

 

Why should we consider what this insignificant minority wants when it’s harming the game experience overall?

 

In this latest issue they nerfed the hell out of Titan Weapons and Tactical Arrow because they felt they were unbalancing everything regardless of how many argued that keeping an 80’ range on a power wouldn’t break the game.

 

If an extra 20’ range on a t1 power is unbalancing enough to get a nerf regardless of user sentiment then WHY THE HECK shouldn’t the single most unbalancing set of mechanics in the game NOT get a serious balance pass and wide array of nerfs?

 

Because you happen to like it and are trying to deflect the sentiments that the incarnate powers need to be looked at by claiming its not actually representative?

 

Nice try, but no.

 

My first choice would be to actually cull the entire incarnate system from the game and retool the Incarnate content that does exist to account for this (remove the level shifts from the opponents for example, since players won’t have them either). At best, keep the Alpha Slot only (sans level shift) as a level 50 capstone.*

 

My second choice would be to limit them exclusively to Incarnate content and level 50 content where an “Incarnate” difficulty toggle has been activated (and which adds level shifts and other boosts to all opponents in the missions).

 

My third choice would be to allow only one Incarnate power to be active at a time (with a 5 minute timer on changing which is active) outside of Incarnate content.

 

But those are my personal preferences. Frankly, I think the best thing that ever happened to City of Heroes was it being shut down before the grindy Endgame system could be fully implemented so that, for the most part, the focus of the game remains on all the content you experience on the climb to 50 rather than solely on a handful of endgame raids and the notion that 1-50 are just the dues you pay to get to the real game (note how many MMOs with that mindset have monetized bypassing the original content precisely because all their focus has been on the endless grind of max level and upping the level cap to start it all over again).

 

My main interest in rebalancing/nerfing Incarnate powers is that their existence makes creating a full range of content nearly impossible for the current small volunteer dev team (one of the reasons I believe their new mission content has been primarily in the 15-35 level range... no incarnates and, pre-level 27 not even much IO-set slotting to speak of).

 

Basically, I think incarnate content takes way too much work (there’s too great a disparity between a fresh 50 and a fully t4’d level 50 to figure out a sweet spot on difficulty) so I’d favor any changes needed to make new mission content in the level 45-50 range easier to develop.

 

* I do think some of the Incarnate powers could be repurposed by rebalancing them and making them into a new Patron Power Pool (the original mission arc you used to unlock the Alpha slot becoming the Patron unlock mission for the Incarnate patron) where the five power picks are retooled Judgement, Interface, Destiny, Lore and Hybrid powers (rescaled to normal ancillary pool values) complete with slotting options.

It was just merely a reminder to not to take extremist opinions like yours seriously. 

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Kazuuk said:

It was just merely a reminder to not to take extremist opinions like yours seriously. 

Check my previous post in this thread... that was my moderate position, but since you're claiming we should all be ignored I figured I'd just drop my real, non-moderated, thoughts on incarnates.

 

To sum up my feelings... Incarnates were bad design (and a poor fit for a game where you could already easily build Superman or Thor as a normal level 50 character; no incarnate powers needed) foisted on Paragon Studios by NCSoft insisting that the game have a Korean MMO-style endgame grindfest they could monetize. It was deliberately unbalanced relative to the 1-50 game for the same reason the BIS raid gear in other MMOs is OP... to get people to view the 1-50 game the same way it is in virtually every other MMO; as the speedbump to the real game where endless grinding for random gear drops is the only way to advance, and then every so often once enough are close enough to the top tier, they drop a new raid and level of gear with all new grinding for the next tier of unbalanced gear to obtain. Rince, repeat, collect paychecks.

 

Frankly, the ONLY reason Incarnate powers are seen as a normal part of the game here is because of the decision to incorporate incarnate XP, threads and emp merits into veteran levels and general content. If it was still behind the usual Incarnate Trial grindfest (or Dark Astoria for a trivial amount of incarnate rewards) it'd be as niche as PVP is. MAYBE people grind for the Alpha, but the rest would be a small amount of diehards too busy working for their t4s on the iTrials to influence the way the level 45-50 game is played (i.e. most people with Judgement would be running iTrials for the xp/threads/components they need to upgrade that and unlock the higher tier powers and not Peregrine Island radio missions).

 

We are free of the need for the monetized grind and, with it, the need for brokenly OP powers that existed only to be monetized.

 

My honest opinion... take the brief outrage lumps and do what's actually good for the long term health of the game by either removing or completely siloing (as PVP is siloed) the Incarnate system*. This will make it infinitely easier to develop new content, particularly stories that need to be level 50 to make sense.

 

* If the system is removed, re-balance the story/mission content for normal level 50s (I've similarly long suggested that the Incarnate Trials be reworked into a story arc/taskforce format handed out at level 45-50... one of the problems with gating major story elements behind massive trials is its can be hard to stop and read the flavor text when everyone's hellbent on getting through the trial ASAP).

[Taboo]

23 hours ago, Kazuuk said:

I would STRONGLY urge the devs to consider that the opinion of this thread does not match the in game community at all.  Keep in mind, only a statistically insignificant portion of the player base even reads here, let alone posts.

NO NO NO.

frackin big ballz to post 'don't listen to folks that take the time to post'

you get ur opinion, others get theirs.

 

truth will be in the middle somewhere. deal with it.

[Taboo]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

If an extra 20’ range on a t1 power is unbalancing enough to get a nerf regardless of user sentiment then WHY THE HECK shouldn’t the single most unbalancing set of mechanics in the game NOT get a serious balance pass and wide array of nerfs?

great question.

[Kazuuk]

2 minutes ago, Taboo said:

NO NO NO.

frackin big ballz to post 'don't listen to folks that take the time to post'

you get ur opinion, others get theirs.

 

truth will be in the middle somewhere. deal with it.

Lol at the deal with it, you guys are like a cult and have been since the live servers.  They're not going to destroy incarnate abilities because a small vocal minority have been upset about them for a decade, 🤣

[Taboo]

1 hour ago, Kazuuk said:

Lol at the deal with it, you guys are like a cult and have been since the live servers.  They're not going to destroy incarnate abilities because a small vocal minority have been upset about them for a decade, 🤣

Who wants them destroyed? Talk about going on about something and just making shit up.

They are going to be 'adjusted'.

[ClawsandEffect]

What I like: 

 

The fact that my characters can gain more power after level 50 and it gives me something to work toward and thus a reason to play them aside from the occasional TF where AT X is needed. 

 

For some of those characters, the Incarnate powers finish fleshing out the concept I had in mind for them. For example, my Dual Pistols/Martial Combat blasters concept is he is a teleporter who uses guns and martial arts. Outside his ability to teleport he is otherwise an ordinary human. Vorpal Judgement is absolutely perfect for him because the kicking animation in it is identical to the version of Storm Kick in his secondary. I went Reactive Interface for the fire DoT, which ties into him improving the Incendiary Ammo he uses (he never uses anything else).

 

What I don't like: 

 

The fact that the Incarnate system is incomplete. We're still missing 4 powers from the 10 we were promised when the system was announced. Finishing out the system would be awesome. 

 

I'm also not that fond of the fact that we can use Incarnate powers exemped down to level 45. I'm good with being able to use them in TFs that were designed for level 50s. But they trivialize the occasional level 45 TF a little too much. It makes Dr Quaterfield almost too easy for the amount of rewards you get for it. Locking Incarnates to only level 50 and above content would be nice. 

 

I also don't like that some Incarnate powers are too powerful and some are too weak. And thematically limited. I'd really like to see a Judgement power added that would fit a natural, unpowered character a little better. A storm of shuriken or a satchel charge or something like that would be cool. The animations are there, just a matter of putting it together. 

 

Also: Can we have the mirror option added to Phantom Lore pets? My Illusion Controllers would really appreciate that. 

[Black Zot]

2 hours ago, Taboo said:

Who wants them destroyed? Talk about going on about something and just making shit up.

They are going to be 'adjusted'.

 

If you want your position to be worth anything, don't lie about it.  What you're asking for is a NERF.  Plain and simple.  Stop hiding behind cute language and admit it.

[Tantricsecrets]

I think all the buffs should be passive and reduced in power. 

[Blastit]

34 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

If you want your position to be worth anything, don't lie about it.  What you're asking for is a NERF.  Plain and simple.  Stop hiding behind cute language and admit it.

That doesn't mean "destroyed", though. Something can be reduced from overpowered to decently balanced.

[Black Zot]

Just now, Blastit said:

That doesn't mean "destroyed", though. Something can be reduced from overpowered to decently balanced.

 

Except there's no way to meet your side's definition of "balanced" without effectively killing the system.

[spiritbrand]

On 11/22/2020 at 9:09 AM, Moonlighter said:

~ Normalize the components to have any commons/uncommons/rare work. I know for flavor it looks good to have different ones, but when the rewards panel comes up we need to spend time cross referencing which component we will need in 3 incarnate levels on this character. As an example, if the whole system was simplified to "Minor Incarnate Boon" "Major Incarnate Boon" and 'Epic Incarnate Boon" then the system would work exactly the same, take exactly as long to grind, but the rewards choice dialog would be a thousand times easier because I could just bank stuff for later without having to bring up a spreadsheet or combing through the crafting window again.

 

This is particularly relevant when someone is running a series of incarnate trials.

 

Another simpler to implement option? Just make the swap crafting interaction allow us to swap components with no extra cost; a minor for a minor, a rare for a rare, etc. Then I can just grab Hamidon Goo (or whatever) and swap it to what I want later.

 

 

Or have those things reward a token (or threads, etc.) to buy what you want.

[Blastit]

40 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Except there's no way to meet your side's definition of "balanced" without effectively killing the system.

Skimming this thread, multiple different people have multiple different ideas for how to tackle any overpowered aspects of system. So what is it that they all have in common that effectively kills the system?

[Darmian]

We're not going to get more Incarnate content any time soon, realistically. Not impossible but improbable. I'm not for nerfing the powers as they are.  They're fine. Again, tidy up the crafting, ditch shards as they are just annoying. I mentioned above my concerns about keeping incarnate powers when exemped down to 45. There really should be an option in the difficulty settings where, like level gating for a TF etc, the mission recognizes that the team consists entirely of incarnate 50s and adds in enemies scaled for that. It wouldn't work on a mixed level team because the lower levels would get mangled, no more than dealing with a level shift.  Imagine doing Liberty/Recluse when the foes are incarnates too.  

 

But without adding new incarnate content I can't see a reason to add new incarnate powers. You need somewhere to rev your engine and test them out where they're needed rather than in what we already have.

 

But if there IS going to be new incarnate content I can see it being more along the lines of Dark Astoria than a full trial.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Darmian