Zone Travel Updates in Issue 27

[mechahamham]

Jimmy, I have a technical question about the new teleport menus.

In particular, would you kindly share the icon name of the green 'Fast Travel' icon so that it can be used for a custom popmenu that doesn't replace the one you've created?

[krj12]

1 minute ago, Jacke said:

It wasn't a PvP exploit.  It wasn't even initially the bug, because that was only found when the changes were being implemented.

 

It was glibly giving a GM command to all players all the time.  I used /enterbasefrompasscode.  But I felt it was not quite right.  It trivialized too many things.

 

Restricting /enterbasefrompasscode was going to happen.  Just as a massively overperforming set like Titan Weapons was going to be considered and changes and those changes would reduce its DPS.

 

I think the solutions to aid travel while restricting /enterbasefrompasscode is a very good change to City of Heroes.  And I've played this game since 2005, through many a nerf and buff and other sundre changes.

I'll have to respectfully disagree.  

As someone who has been playing MMOs since the original everquest,  I think WAY too much time is spent in getting from point A to B.    Early MMOs were notorious at using this "mechanic" to 

stretch out game play time.   It's annoying and unnecessary.   I think the enterbasefrompasscode command was one of the best changes I've seen to this game, and I'm sorry to see it nerfed.

 

As far as Jimmy's post where he thinks no one should be able to do it, well, I guess he never played a game like Guild Wars 1,  where once you've been to a zone, you can teleport to it from anywhere.

Worked fine in that game, and no one considered it to be an exploit or OP.

 

 

[Jacke]

Just now, mechahamham said:

Jimmy, I have a technical question about the new teleport menus.

In particular, would you kindly share the icon name of the green 'Fast Travel' icon so that it can be used for a custom popmenu that doesn't replace the one you've created?

Here's my custom popmenu that incorporates all the Fast Travel entries.  It has a bunch of fancy features as well as temp powers that may no longer be available in the Super Packs, so you should probable cut it down for your use.  I install it and bind it to P with this entry in my keybinds:

 

P               "popmenu commands-j"

Commands.20201116a.mnu

[therealtitanman]

8 hours ago, amusingsn said:

So why not just give everyone the ability to plop a base portal down wherever they are, whenever they need it, if the idea was to make traveling between zones more convenient?   I understand that having people able to instantly zone even when in combat is a problem, but you could have the zone power not work when they are flagged as being in combat or in PVP or whatever, eh?   

I  wasn't concerned with these changes and didn't really investigate the details, because I saw that you were all saying you were going to provide a "replacement" that was just as good.  You have not done that, which is why I'm giving you feedback now.  I didn't realize the replacements were going to have a 30 minute cooldown (or whatever it is, its long) and cost 10 million influence. 

 

Make it a 5 second cooldown and free, and you've kept it pretty much just as convenient.  On top of that, leave in all the other teleportation changes you've made, with the new base portals and their locations, the long range accolades, etc etc, and you've actually improved the experience. 

 

Easy fixes.

Yes, Thats what I suggested, 1min or less.

The whole thing is inconvenient. 
10million is a lot for new player.
Its inconvenient for player has many alts.

 

Some of the comments:
"You should try beta"

Not all players are beta tester, even other mmo facing the backlash during launch.

Dont sweep this issue under the rug, this will impact the population of players in long run.

As MSR exp nerf,

first few people hush me in comments and said is an abuse.

Now other than badger, barely see much MSR going on.

I asked some other player who join MSR for leveling and social, they stop it due it the exp nerf.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by therealtitanman

[Jacke]

21 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I'll have to respectfully disagree.

Which is the way to disagree.

 

Quote

As someone who has been playing MMOs since the original everquest,  I think WAY too much time is spent in getting from point A to B.

Fast Travel in games, MMOs included, have gone from one extreme to another and back again.

 

Sometimes travel is too slow, too hard.  I remember early days in City of Heroes, when Sprint had half the effect and you didn't get travel powers until level 14 at the earliest.  And people like @Luminara used Hurdle as a jumping travel power because builds were even tighter prior to Inherent Fitness.

 

But it's important to see when travel is too fast, too easy, too trivial.  And to see that a better way, a better balance, has to found.

 

If you were using /enterbasefrompasscode, you already have access to bases with telepads.  Get the dosh for the Prestige powers (get a level 50, all of them can earn millions per play session).  Use the Prestige or the Day Job Base Portal summon powers, or invoke but don't use LRT, Base Transporter, and the temp Day Job Base teleport power; all then allow use of /enterbasefrompasscode.  There's more zone Base Portals, they're in better locations, and when you use a Base Teleporter, you end up at that zones Base Portal to boot.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[Glacier Peak]

19 minutes ago, krj12 said:

As far as Jimmy's post where he thinks no one should be able to do it, well, I guess...

After many volunteer hours of testing, receiving many players feedback and suggestions, incorporating this feedback in to subsequent builds, testing again, going out of their way to find the best solution with the least impact on gameplay, all the while reiterating likely hundreds of times in all official platforms of communication to the player base over the past year that this exploit would be removed.

 

The Homecoming volunteers have gone above and beyond in their efforts to balance fixing an exploit and keeping the player base happy. 

[therealtitanman]

25 minutes ago, krj12 said:

I'll have to respectfully disagree.  

As someone who has been playing MMOs since the original everquest,  I think WAY too much time is spent in getting from point A to B.    Early MMOs were notorious at using this "mechanic" to 

stretch out game play time.   It's annoying and unnecessary.   I think the enterbasefrompasscode command was one of the best changes I've seen to this game, and I'm sorry to see it nerfed.

 

As far as Jimmy's post where he thinks no one should be able to do it, well, I guess he never played a game like Guild Wars 1,  where once you've been to a zone, you can teleport to it from anywhere.

Worked fine in that game, and no one considered it to be an exploit or OP.

 

 

Ragnarok Online was using these method, changed to instant pop anywhere after version 10.0, the tp drama was 

FF14 1.0 was 5min cd to instant the backlash news. > FF14 ARR instant tp

GW2, WOW, ESO, near current gen mmo all using instant tp.

every 10min tp is like you only can use 6times every 1hr.

 

[Drakwatch]

7 minutes ago, Jacke said:

If you were using /enterbasefrompasscode, you already have access to bases with telepads.  Get the dosh for the Prestige powers (get a level 50, all of them can earn millions per play session).  Use the Prestige or the Day Job Base Portal summon powers, or invoke but don't use LRT, Base Transporter, and the temp Day Job Base teleport power; all then allow use of /enterbasefrompasscode.  There's more zone Base Portals, they're in better locations, and when you use a Base Teleporter, you end up at that zones Base Portal to boot.

This is my argument to anyone who says RIP /enterbasefrompasscode. The command isn't gone - If you can place a base teleporter anywhere now, you can still use the command to go to your favorite warp base. Not only that, getting to a zone SG base is easier and quicker now. AND if your base teleporter is still recharging, you can use any of the OTHER teleporters available to you. You don't NEED to have the LRT Accolade to get around the game quicky.

 

As a side note, the argument that fast travel is over-complicated is a valid one, but I think that mostly stems from the initial design of the game. This update is essentially a sweeping clean up of old teleport / fast travel mechanics while also removing what was essentially a dev command that was available to the public.

[therealtitanman]

18 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

After many volunteer hours of testing, receiving many players feedback and suggestions, incorporating this feedback in to subsequent builds, testing again, going out of their way to find the best solution with the least impact on gameplay, all the while reiterating likely hundreds of times in all official platforms of communication to the player base over the past year that this exploit would be removed.

 

The Homecoming volunteers have gone above and beyond in their efforts to balance fixing an exploit and keeping the player base happy. 

You should know, even post patched, player still can suggest they dont like it.

exploit can be solved, but not in punish everyone. long cd is a not punishment for certain player "abuse the game" but everyone.

 

my suggestion is make LRT work same as passcode:

1. 1min or less cooldown

2. already unlocked once in account, unlock for every alt.

3. 5sec cast time. cancel on hit.

Edited November 25, 2020 by therealtitanman

[Glacier Peak]

3 minutes ago, therealtitanman said:

You should know, even post patched, player still can suggest they dont like it.

exploit can be solved, but not in punish everyone. long cd is a not punishment for certain player "abuse the game" but everyone

They are literally always accepting feedback from players, look at the first post for this example:

 

Quote

Teleporter Batteries

The next thing we're looking into is the idea of Teleporter Batteries. This stemmed from looking at more modern MMOs (such as Guild Wars 2), where fast travel is instant once you unlock a destination (like with Long Range Teleporter), but has a small currency cost.

 

Enter Teleporter Batteries - these would be a special type of Salvage, which would instantly refresh the cooldown of LRT. You'll be able to access them via the Fast Travel menu (or through your own macros, popmenus and keybinds, or from the Salvage window), and then instantly use LRT to zip to another zone.

 

We'll also be looking at integrating batteries into the relevant Day Jobs in order to replace the duplicate powers, but what form that takes (or if it even happens at all) is completely up in the air right now.

 

[therealtitanman]

7 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

They are literally always accepting feedback from players, look at the first post for this example:

 

 

Yes we on the same page, everyone could voice up they like or not.

 

my sugestion this has to solve asap before the players gone.

its harder to play with pug recently due to decline of players base.

 

ESO how to avoid abuse, you cant instant tp without increase price.

you can tp for free to your friend/guildmate

Edited November 25, 2020 by therealtitanman

[Ironblade]

15 minutes ago, therealtitanman said:

You should know, even post patched, player still can suggest they dont like it.

exploit can be solved, but not in punish everyone. long cd is a not punishment for certain player "abuse the game" but everyone.

Yes, but as Jimmy said, telling us AGAIN AND AGAIN that you don't like it doesn't serve a purpose.

And it's not a "punishment" for anyone.

[therealtitanman]

4 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Yes, but as Jimmy said, telling us AGAIN AND AGAIN that you don't like it doesn't serve a purpose.

And it's not a "punishment" for anyone.

ok. i leave it here then, before this turn in off rail topic.

[Jacke]

57 minutes ago, therealtitanman said:

The whole thing is inconvenient. 
10million is a lot for new player.
Its inconvenient for player has many alts.

To outfit the entirety of Prestige Powers I like to have on a toon now costs 32 million Inf, leaving about 0.8 million change as a good starting float.

 

But a few million is enough to start a toon.  Get that toon to 50 and every play session earns millions of Inf.

 

Before 50, Zone Badge Accolades (for all 8 Badges in a Zone), completed mission arcs, completed Task Forces, earn the toon Reward Merits.

 

The devs expect players to use their Reward Merits to get what they need, including Inf.  In fact, using Merits to get Inf is almost always the best use of Merits.

 

TL;dr solution: convert enough Merits to Enhancement Converters at a Merit Vendor or Merit Machine.  Converters will always sell on the Auction House.  You don't always need to get the absolute best price.  Just get a good enough price to finance your toons.

 

Longer solution analysis:

 

The best use of Reward Merits is to buy the Special Salvage that's selling for the most Inf right now.  Let's check the Merit Vendors.

• Enhancement Boosters cost 5 Merits each
• Enhancement Catalysts cost 20 Merits each
• Enhancement Converters cost 1/3 Merits each
• Enhancement Unslotters cost 1/2 Merits each

(Note that buying Catalysts with Merits is almost always a bad idea.  There's ways to minimize the need for Catalysts in a build.  And playing any level 50 toon will get a Catalyst drop about every day per level 50 toon, usually in the first few missions played.)

Now the Auction House market prices:

• Boosters selling for about 800,000 Inf each
• Catalysts selling for about 2,000,000 Inf each
• Converters selling for about 70,000 Inf each
• Unslotters selling for about 150,000 Inf each

Note that some of those prices are more volatile that others, particularly for Converters.  You can get more Inf if you sell for a price that is a bit above those limits rather than posting it for the sell-it-now price of 1 Inf.

So that means for each Merit, buying each of these Salvage will earn:

• Boosters: 160,000 Inf
• Catalysts: 100,000 Inf
• Converters: 210,000 Inf
• Unslotters: 300,000 Inf

Every time I've checked, it's always been either Converters or Unslotters that best to buy to sell on the Auction House.  I'd be tempted to buy only Converters as there's a big continuous demand for Converters, from me (so I can use them instead of selling them) and from others (so the market prices will be good enough).  If I can push that Merit sales price to 100,000 (possible at times), they're as good as Unslotters.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[therealtitanman]

3 minutes ago, Jacke said:

To outfit the entirety of Prestige Powers I like to have on a toon now costs 31 million Inf, leaving about 0.8 million change as a good starting float.

 

But a few million is enough to start a toon.  Get that toon to 50 and every play session earns millions of Inf.

 

Before 50, Zone Badge Accolades (for all 8 Badges in a Zone), completed mission arcs, completed Task Forces, earn the toon Reward Merits.

 

The devs expect players to use their Reward Merits to get what they need, including Inf.  In fact, using Merits to get Inf is almost always the best use of Merits.

 

TL;dr solution: convert enough Merits to Enhancement Converters at a Merit Vendor or Merit Machine.  Converters will always sell on the Auction House.  You don't always need to get the absolute best price.  Just get a good enough price to finance your toons.

 

Longer solution analysis:

  Reveal hidden contents

The best use of Reward Merits is to buy the Special Salvage that's selling for the most Inf right now.  Let's check the Merit Vendors.

 

• Enhancement Boosters cost 5 Merits each
• Enhancement Catalysts cost 20 Merits each
• Enhancement Converters cost 1/3 Merits each
• Enhancement Unslotters cost 1/2 Merits each

(Note that buying Catalysts with Merits is almost always a bad idea.  There's ways to minimize the need for Catalysts in a build.  And playing any level 50 toon will get a Catalyst drop about every day per level 50 toon, usually in the first few missions played.)

Now the Auction House market prices:

• Boosters selling for about 800,000 Inf each
• Catalysts selling for about 2,000,000 Inf each
• Converters selling for about 70,000 Inf each
• Unslotters selling for about 150,000 Inf each

Note that some of those prices are more volatile that others, particularly for Converters.  You can get more Inf if you sell for a price that is a bit above those limits rather than posting it for the sell-it-now price of 1 Inf.

So that means for each Merit, buying each of these Salvage will earn:

• Boosters: 160,000 Inf
• Catalysts: 100,000 Inf
• Converters: 210,000 Inf
• Unslotters: 300,000 Inf

Every time I've checked, it's always been either Converters and Unslotters.  I'd be tempted to convert Merits to Converters as there's a big continuous demand for Converters, from me (so I can use them instead of selling them) and from others (so the market prices will be good enough).  If I can push that Merit sales price to 100,000 (possible at times), they're as good as Unslotters.

those not actual solution for new player tbh,

those merit are for new player beef up their character not to flip in the auction house.

 

i have no problem with inf, and i gave lot of recipe to new players.

31mil is not that easy for new player.

 

and i stop derail the topic from here.

[Razor Cure]

8 hours ago, Jimmy said:

You don't need all of the travel options to get around quickly

No. We didn't. Past Tense. Cause of the base TP.

I saw up thread someone got ALL the LRT badges unlocked on a level 1 toon, in 90 mins. Granted, he wasnt trying to rush it. But at LEAST 30 mins, per alt? As people have said, if they are not a badge hunter, this is just awful.

Over a year we had it. A YEAR.

Ok, ok, you didnt want to stop people having easy access to other bases but..why couldn't have you 'black stamped' and removed the exploit within a WEEK and simply told people to access bases the usual way. Pretty sure more people were using the Base TP to get around annoying and drawn out content, than to check out random bases. Or simple create a Dev-Base per server with All the tps, that everyone had access to from level one.

Rest of the issue seems totally awesome but this change? I really dont wanna do numi or citadel ever again (more than usual).

 

[Six-Six]

15 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Fast Travel Menu

A new Fast Travel macro accolade has been added to provide easy access to the various zone travel powers. This menu is unlocked as soon as you acquire one of the powers available in the menu, and can be found in the Accolades section of the powers window.

 

 

It just occurred to me that with the Fast Travel Menu, if you had 1 more travel powers that began with E and change Monitor Duty to execute with N, you can then rearrange the list so that the Key shortcuts spell LOBSTERMAN.

Sorry... back to your regular programming 😃

 

[ladypseudo]

I don't understand the benefit to any of this, to be honest.

 

Being able to teleport to a base via a command should have been removed immediately rather than letting people get used to it being there.

 

I don't understand to what detriment it is to allow people to just teleport to a base, I mean there's a ton of Portal SG bases catering to the desire to fast travel. So you /know/ the desire for it is there. Now those bases have essentially been made useless, which means work and effort put in by said Portal SG creators were just thrown out of the window.

Granted, you can still use the buttons if you're near a base portal. However, with how large the zones are, it still effectively makes travelling tedious and for lower levels, dangerous. In order to still utilize those slash commands, one needs several million for all of the prestige teleportation powers. Again, not possible for lower levels.

I see a lot of 'Well, all you have to do is earn the powers to do all this.', which is great for those who not only know how to do it, but CAN do it, but what of the newer players? Earning the powers requires badge hunting, which will become all the more difficult to do with this particular change. This is also going to make the process of going through story content a lot more unpleasant, because it's going to take that much longer. 

Now, I'm not saying I want an 'Easy Button' added, not at all. 

What I am saying is, a lot of people enjoyed the option to fast travel by way of those Portal SGs, and a lot of people utilized them. No one, of course, was obligated to utilize them. They had the option of both normal travel and fast travel. You could have just turned those slash commands off for PVP zones. It seems like a much simpler solution than to do away with the ability to choose which method of travel you preferred.

[Jacke]

16 minutes ago, therealtitanman said:

those not actual solution for new player tbh,

those merit are for new player beef up their character not to flip in the auction house.

 

i have no problem with inf, and i gave lot of recipe to new players.

31mil is not that easy for new player.

 

and i stop derail the topic from here.

 

31 (or 32, I changed it as I added another power 🙂 ) million is not a lot of Inf.  I can earn millions of Inf just from enemy defeats and mission rewards on a level 50 toon in a single play session.  I can get 32 million in under 2 weeks easily just from play.  And there are other ways to earn Inf as well.  Like completing content, getting Reward Merits, and using those Merits to buy Salvage to sell on the Auction House for Inf.

 

Merits are for players to use to improve their toons in the best way possible.

 

Look at what the Merits buy at the Vendors/Machines.  See what the prices are at the Auction House.  The best use of Merits for the longest time (and likely on into the future) is:

• To buy Salvage, usually Enhancement Converters, from Merit Vendors/Machines.
• Sell that Salvage on the Auction House for Inf.
• Use that Inf to get what they need from the Auction House, including everything up to Purple and PvP recipes and Winter Origin and other special Enhancements.
• Though some special Enhancements can be made in other ways (which is why Converters always sell).
• And eventually use the Inf to buy Super Packs, get the stuff from the Packs, use what they want, sell everything else.

Using the Merits at a Vendor/Machine to get the expensive recipes is not as good as converting them via Enhancement Converters to Inf and then buying those on the AH.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[Ironblade]

1 minute ago, ladypseudo said:

I don't understand to what detriment it is to allow people to just teleport to a base, I mean there's a ton of Portal SG bases catering to the desire to fast travel. So you /know/ the desire for it is there. Now those bases have essentially been made useless, which means work and effort put in by said Portal SG creators were just thrown out of the window.

Not even close.  Those based are still EASILY accessible.

 

 

1 minute ago, ladypseudo said:

Granted, you can still use the buttons if you're near a base portal. However, with how large the zones are, it still effectively makes travelling tedious and for lower levels, dangerous. In order to still utilize those slash commands, one needs several million for all of the prestige teleportation powers. Again, not possible for lower levels.

Or, one needs the day job powers which can be acquired at zero cost.

 

[therealtitanman]

6 minutes ago, ladypseudo said:

I don't understand the benefit to any of this, to be honest.

 

Being able to teleport to a base via a command should have been removed immediately rather than letting people get used to it being there.

 

I don't understand to what detriment it is to allow people to just teleport to a base, I mean there's a ton of Portal SG bases catering to the desire to fast travel. So you /know/ the desire for it is there. Now those bases have essentially been made useless, which means work and effort put in by said Portal SG creators were just thrown out of the window.

Granted, you can still use the buttons if you're near a base portal. However, with how large the zones are, it still effectively makes travelling tedious and for lower levels, dangerous. In order to still utilize those slash commands, one needs several million for all of the prestige teleportation powers. Again, not possible for lower levels.

I see a lot of 'Well, all you have to do is earn the powers to do all this.', which is great for those who not only know how to do it, but CAN do it, but what of the newer players? Earning the powers requires badge hunting, which will become all the more difficult to do with this particular change. This is also going to make the process of going through story content a lot more unpleasant, because it's going to take that much longer. 

Now, I'm not saying I want an 'Easy Button' added, not at all. 

What I am saying is, a lot of people enjoyed the option to fast travel by way of those Portal SGs, and a lot of people utilized them. No one, of course, was obligated to utilize them. They had the option of both normal travel and fast travel. You could have just turned those slash commands off for PVP zones. It seems like a much simpler solution than to do away with the ability to choose which method of travel you preferred.

YES

[Ironblade]

Again (and again and again) the command was not removed because of PvP.

There was an exploit which was only discovered recently.

[Jacke]

13 minutes ago, ladypseudo said:

Granted, you can still use the buttons if you're near a base portal. However, with how large the zones are, it still effectively makes travelling tedious and for lower levels, dangerous. In order to still utilize those slash commands, one needs several million for all of the prestige teleportation powers. Again, not possible for lower levels.

Get 10 Reward Merits from all badges in 2 zones.  Or completing mission arcs.  Or from a single Task Force.

 

With 10 Merits, buy 30 Enhancement Converters from a Reward Merit Vendor/Machine.

 

Sell the 30 Converters for about 70,000 Inf each.

 

That's 2.1 million Inf.  Takes a few minutes to a few hours, depending on what is done.

 

A single Task Force, like the first half of the Positron Task Force, playable from level 8, pays out 11 Merits.  Part 2 is 15 Merits.  (Those are the numbers on the Wiki, they may be a bit different in the game right now.)  Finish a mission arc at all levels and they pay out from 2 to 5 Merits each, some of the longer ones more.

 

And stop with all the negative waves about PvP and blaming it for all the ills in the game.  PvP players are people too.  Beautiful people.

 

In no way was PvP responsible for putting through the /enterbasefrompasscode restrictions.  Stop telling all those porkie pies!

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jacke

[ladypseudo]

4 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Or, one needs the day job powers which can be acquired at zero cost.

 

Which still requires a wait period. When for a year, we've had the option to choose what method of travel we preferred. I don't understand the reasoning behind this change, and I'm having a hard time accepting 'Well it was never meant to work this way' as an explanation. Because it could have been changed immediately rather than waiting a year, when a lot of people who came to very much enjoy the fast travel, now no longer have access to it, seemingly on a whim.

 

2 minutes ago, Ironblade said:

Again (and again and again) the command was not removed because of PvP.

There was an exploit which was only discovered recently.

Again, I point to the fact it's been here a whole year. The initial explanation says they knew this exploit, and that the allowance was left "Because the command had a beneficial side-effect - it allowed players to easily “bookmark” bases with macros and popmenus."

I also never said that they removed it because of PVP. I only said that the slash commands could have just been removed for PVP zones.

[Ironblade]

1 minute ago, ladypseudo said:

I also never said that they removed it because of PVP. I only said that the slash commands could have just been removed for PVP zones

How is that not saying that they removed it because of PvP?  Removing the slash command for PvP zones would accomplish NOTHING.  It's not a PvP-related problem.

And again, I point to the fact that the exploit was only found RECENTLY when they started looking at alternatives to include in Issue 27.

 

The only mistake the devs made here, which they have publicly admitted, was not removing the command immediately.  They didn't see any harm in it AT THE TIME.  Recently, they discovered the potential for grievous harm (and I don't mean silliness like cheating in PvP) so they removed it now.