Super Strength Proliferation to Scrappers and Stalkers

[ironjoe]

I would like to see Super Strength proliferated to Scrappers and Stalkers and I have been thinking of some changes to the set that could be done at the same time.

So I would swap some of the power positions around and change some of the attributes of the powers as follows:

 

Super Strength Power Proliferation
Brute		Scrapper		Stalker		Tank
Power	Level	Power	Level	Power	Level	Power	Level
Jab	1	Jab	1	Jab	1	Jab	1
Punch	1	Punch	1	Punch	1	Punch	2
Hand Clap	2	Hand Clap	2	Hand Clap	2	Hand Clap	4
Rage	6	Rage	6	Assasin's Strike	6	Taunt	10
Knockout Blow	8	Knockout Blow	8	Build Up	8	Rage	16
Taunt	12	Confront	12	Placate	12	Knockout Blow	20
Haymaker	18	Haymaker	18	Haymaker	18	Haymaker	28
Hurl	26	Hurl	26	Knockout Blow	26	Hurl	35
Foot Stomp	32	Foot Stomp	32	Foot Stomp	32	Foot Stomp	38

 

Hand Clap I would move to tier 3 and add some minor damage to make it a low damage stunning AOE.

 

Damage	Minor
Recharge	Slow
Minimum Level	2 (Brute)
	2 (Scrapper)
	2 (Stalker)
	4 (Tank)
Effects	Point Blank Area of Effect
	Foe Disorient, Foe Knockdown
Enhancements	Enhance Accuracy
	Enhance Damage
	Reduce Endurance Cost
	Enhance Knockback Distance
	Increase Attacke Rate
	Enhance Disorient Duration
	Enhance Taunt Effectiveness
Set Categories	PBAoE Damage
	Stuns
	Knockback
	Taunt

 

End Cost 13

Recharge 30s

Radius 15

Stunned: 2 (Tgt)

Duration 15

Damage 10

 

Rage I would change to a toggle that merges Rage values into a mechanic similar to Against All Odds. So the harder they are pressed, the more they Rage. At max target saturation it equals double Rage currently but will be below that for most of the time.  I see this as a compromise with those that love double Rage

 

Recharge	Slow
Minimum Level	6 (Brute)
	6 (Scrapper)
	8 (Stalker)
	16 (Tank)
Effects	Toggle: Point Blank Area of Effect
	Self +Damage, To Hit
Enhancements	Reduce Endurance Cost
	Increase Attacke Rate
	Enhance ToHit Buff
Set Categories	To Hit Buffs

 

End Cost 0.21 sec

Recharge 10

Radius 8

ToHit: 20% Self

DamBuff: 10% Self

DamBuff: 15% Per additional enemy max 10.

 

Hurl should become a small Targetted AoE.

 

Damage	High (Smashing)
Recharge	Moderate
Minimum Level	26 (Brute)
	26 (Scrapper)
	26 (Stalker)
	35 (Tank)
Effects	Point Blank Area of Effect
	Foe Disorient, Foe Knockdown
Enhancements	Enhance Accuracy
	Enhance Damage
	Reduce Endurance Cost
	Enhance Knockback Distance
	Increase Attacke Rate
	Enhance Range
	Enhance Taunt Effectiveness
Set Categories	Targetted AoE Damage
	Knockback
	Taunt

 

End Cost 9.35

Recharge 8s

Radius 8

Range 80

Damage 75

Haymaker I would bump up from High Damage to Superior to account for the tier change but keep other attributes the same.

Numbers above are going off Mids for a Super Strength Tank and adjusting from there. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by ironjoe
Changed Stalker Rage to Build Up to account for ATO.

[Razor Cure]

Having Rage (as a toggle, like you suggest) seems super silly on a stealthy kinda AT, especially since every other melee set stalkers get comes with vanilla Build Up.

[Haijinx]

Stalkers would get build up.

 

They always get build up.  

 

Which means jab punch and haymaker would need longer recharges, higher end cost, more damage. 

 

Otherwise SS would be too feeble for Stalkers. 

 

 

[Haijinx]

Without fixing Rage I don't see SS moving to scrappers. 

 

Rage fixes are the most notorious topic in COX history.

 

The amount of inertia when it comes to rage couldn't be moved by someone with nearly infinite super strength.  

[xl8]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:16 PM, ironjoe said:

I would like to see Super Strength proliferated to Scrappers and Stalkers

Only if it was unique in its own right, like the difference between dark on fenders and trollers.

I'd be okay with it didn't make Superman/Hulk/Doomsday a scrapper. So no foot stomp, hurl, or hand clap and keep it at a more Wolverine strength level.

 

Jab

Punch
Haymaker

Back Fist - cone, same effect as hand clap/Assassin's Strike

Blinding Feint (Dual Blades)/Build Up... OR... (for scrappers and Stalkers) "Berserk" PBAoE non-stealth breaking end drain, +dam, foe -end, -acc. May sound OP, but it works similarly to Soul Drain without the damage component. 

Confront/Placate

Throw(shove) target - extreme damage and KB.

Spinning Strike (Street Justice)

Knockout Blow

 

[Haijinx]

I think the whole thematic feel based on AT sailed years before the Sunset.  

 

So don't see it as anything more some kind of nostalgic appeal at this point 

[Hyperstrike]

4 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Without fixing Rage I don't see SS moving to scrappers. 

 

Rage fixes are the most notorious NOXIOUS topic in COX history.

 

The amount of inertia when it comes to rage couldn't be moved by someone with nearly infinite super strength.  

FTFY

[ironjoe]

19 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Having Rage (as a toggle, like you suggest) seems super silly on a stealthy kinda AT, especially since every other melee set stalkers get comes with vanilla Build Up.

One armor set does have a similar mechanic for Stalkers though and it seems to work pretty well for them there. You could also do the vanilla build up that these ports seem to make but that just seemed less interesting to me.

[ironjoe]

16 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Without fixing Rage I don't see SS moving to scrappers. 

 

Rage fixes are the most notorious topic in COX history.

 

The amount of inertia when it comes to rage couldn't be moved by someone with nearly infinite super strength.  

This is more or less a rage fix with some other fluff around it as I try to think out things. I'm trying to be less annoying than some of the other rage fix posts with a whole look at powers and addressing lack of AOE at lower levels.

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, ironjoe said:

This is more or less a rage fix with some other fluff around it as I try to think out things. I'm trying to be less annoying than some of the other rage fix posts with a whole look at powers and addressing lack of AOE at lower levels.

Yeah.  But the single rage cluck and toggle both seem like non starters for brutes and tanks. 

 

Maybe Scrappers could get their own sort of rage. 

[Gobbledigook]

It would need to be higher for a single mob and less per extra mob, like soul drain. If it were a toggle as suggested above. 40-120% or something like that.

 

You could just lower the Rage buff a little to 60% and either let it stack or not. Remove the crash completely and adjust the numbers of the set a little to compensate. Might be easier and meet less Resistance. Improve hurl. Turn hurl or handclap into an extra cone/AoE.

 

Stalkers get a build up maybe.

 

And give Tankers Energy Aura and Regen 😁

Edited November 28, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Haijinx]

The bonus rage needs applied would vary a lot based on the recharge values of jab, punch and haymaker.

 

On tankers and brutes these three powers have HALF the recharge of comparable powers in other melee sets that started out tanker (stone melee being the easiest to directly compare)

 

This was great at low levels of recharge, but these days it makes full powered rage and even a fair amount of double rage necessary.  

 

But scrappers could get those three on 3/6/9 or 4/8/12 allowing a lower power rage to work. 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Haijinx

[aethereal]

We just...  really badly need to come up with a new damage formula that isn't principally about recharge.  The recharge shenanigans in this game are getting ridiculous, where everyone searches out longer and longer recharge powers.  Meanwhile, we continue to just eyeball activation time.  It's really kind of absurd.

[BrandX]

On 11/27/2020 at 8:07 AM, Haijinx said:

I think the whole thematic feel based on AT sailed years before the Sunset.  

 

So don't see it as anything more some kind of nostalgic appeal at this point 

 

I think the whole idea of thematic feel based on AT, is in the eye of the creator.

 

Rogue (Classic Ms Marvel Powers), for instance, to me, is a Scrapper with Super Strength.  Colossus, however, would be a Tanker with Super Strength.  Even if it might get argued Rogue is just as durable.

 

I could see both Wolverine and Sabretooth as Scrappers and Brutes, with each leaning slightly more to one side than the other.

 

Batman, there's those that say Scrapper, those that say Stalker.  If I was going to go with, "Unable to take a Super Strength Punch" I'd lean towards Stalker.  😛

[Haijinx]

12 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

I think the whole idea of thematic feel based on AT, is in the eye of the creator.

 

Rogue (Classic Ms Marvel Powers), for instance, to me, is a Scrapper with Super Strength.  Colossus, however, would be a Tanker with Super Strength.  Even if it might get argued Rogue is just as durable.

 

I could see both Wolverine and Sabretooth as Scrappers and Brutes, with each leaning slightly more to one side than the other.

 

Batman, there's those that say Scrapper, those that say Stalker.  If I was going to go with, "Unable to take a Super Strength Punch" I'd lean towards Stalker.  😛

Yes.  There are plenty of Super Strong characters that are more Scrapper than Tanker.  

 

Even some that are closer the Blaster.   

 

I was more thinking the original City of Heroes divisions between Tanker type Melee sets and Scrapper type melee sets.  

 

Those days are over.  Have been over forever.

[Haijinx]

40 minutes ago, aethereal said:

We just...  really badly need to come up with a new damage formula that isn't principally about recharge.  The recharge shenanigans in this game are getting ridiculous, where everyone searches out longer and longer recharge powers.  Meanwhile, we continue to just eyeball activation time.  It's really kind of absurd.

Think that its too late to radically redesign this game.   

 

Its a reasonable point in the abstract though.

[Coyotedancer]

A Super Strength Stalker could be good fun... I'm all for it.

 

But... yeah. Stalkers get Build Up, traditionally. I think I'd prefer to stick with that pattern if it does get a port at some point. It's just a play-style thing. 

[Vanden]

Stalkers have to have Build Up or one of their ATO procs is useless.

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Stalkers have to have Build Up or one of their ATO procs is useless.

Imagine how powerful click rage would be on stalkers if the ATO recharged Rage. 

 

Quadruple rage?  Septuple rage. 

[Vanden]

You can't really be replacing it with a toggle that's just on all the time, either.

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Coyotedancer said:

A Super Strength Stalker could be good fun... I'm all for it.

 

But... yeah. Stalkers get Build Up, traditionally. I think I'd prefer to stick with that pattern if it does get a port at some point. It's just a play-style thing. 

*Sneak up behind a guy.*
"Ever play The Knockout Game?"
"What?  AHHH!"
*Thumps the guy in the head*
*Drops bonlessly to the ground*

[ironjoe]

3 hours ago, Vanden said:

Stalkers have to have Build Up or one of their ATO procs is useless.

That's actually the best reason that I totally forgot. So yeah they would need build up instead.

[ironjoe]

8 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

It would need to be higher for a single mob and less per extra mob, like soul drain. If it were a toggle as suggested above. 40-120% or something like that.

 

You could just lower the Rage buff a little to 60% and either let it stack or not. Remove the crash completely and adjust the numbers of the set a little to compensate. Might be easier and meet less Resistance. Improve hurl. Turn hurl or handclap into an extra cone/AoE.

 

Stalkers get a build up maybe.

 

And give Tankers Energy Aura and Regen 😁

We were testing a crashless rage on a single stack that still gave the 80% damage buff but that still seemed to get push back by giving the crash if you double stacked. That's why I took my back to the drawing board approach.

I also agree on Handclap and Hurl and that's why I made my attempts.

I made an edit and changed Rage to Build up for the ATO as was pointed out for Stalkers.

And I agree on the others proliferating out to Tankers.

[aethereal]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Think that its too late to radically redesign this game.   

 

Its a reasonable point in the abstract though.

No radical redesign necessary.  We could decide on a new formula that weighted activation time, endurance cost, etc more heavily than recharge time, and then start designing to that when we make powersets, proliferate them, or rebalance them.  Older powers wouldn't agree with the new formula, but that's not the end of the world.  We'd just stop propagating this ridiculous, innumerate design decision onward and onward into the future.

 

EDIT:  Honestly, we could just say, "Actually, there IS NO formula," and that would still to a large degree be better than what we have today.  What we have today is that we pretend there are rules, but the rules are unmoored from the reality of the game so we're actually eyeballing everything, we're just eyeballing in based on manipulating a largely meaningless number that derives other numbers (badly), instead of eyeballing it based on the numbers we actually care about directly.

Edited November 28, 2020 by aethereal

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Yes.  There are plenty of Super Strong characters that are more Scrapper than Tanker.  

 

Even some that are closer the Blaster.   

 

I was more thinking the original City of Heroes divisions between Tanker type Melee sets and Scrapper type melee sets.  

 

Those days are over.  Have been over forever.

 

The division is in how the ATS play.  I'd say the problem there is a simple one we call Brutes.  😛