Fixing Gravity Control's Lift and Propel Problem

[oedipus_tex]

I know this is the suggestions forum, and normally the idea is to come in with a suggestion. In this case though I am presenting a problem with no real suggestion on how to fix it.

 

 

Subject: Gravity Control's Lift and Propel Powers

 

Backstory: Originally, Gravity Control was supposed to be a "blast-y" Control set that traded control capability for direct damage, in the form of Lift and Propel. The original developers weren't looking at animation times, so this didn't immediately pan out. Propel had terrible DPA that wasn't fixed almost until servers closed. The solution was an "Impact" mechanic that adds extra damage after the player uses the single target Hold.

 

This allowed Gravity Control to move into the "blast control set role." While that did make the set more playable, it accidentally introduced new problems:

 

• Lift and Propel compete with the Assault set Dominators get. Dominators have a secondary devoted to attacks. Here's how Lift and Propel stand up against a fairly average Assault set. We can see that Lift with Impact damage is almost as good as any attack in the secondary. The way this pans out in actual play is slightly harder to evaluate, because the Hold casts semi-slowly and in an attack chain will lower damage. However, what tends to happen is either Propel/Lift are better options or Assault set powers are better options, but mixing the two is a bad option because you need Impact, which doesn't contribute to damage in the Assault set.

 

 

 

Now this wouldn't necessarily be an issue. Blasters have a degree of this in their primary/secondaries. However, there is also problem 2. It will arise for anyone who looked at the chart above and went "Whoah Lift with Impact hits almost as hard as a Dominator's melee attacks?"

 

• Because of Containment, Lift and Propel do more damage on Controllers than Dominators. Now, I realize that there is some degree of set up for Containment damage. But we should also remember Controllers often get -Resist or +Damage in their secondaries, so they are multiplying the damage further. Lift, in particular, easily competes with the ranged blasts a Dominator gets, and even many melee attacks.

 

 

The takeaway is there are few situations where Gravity Control is "worth it" on a Dominator versus a Controller because Lift and Propel duplicate many of the benefits of the Assault set. While there are a handful of situations where the Dominator pulls ahead in damage because of not having to set Containment or the Hold, the difference is marginal compared to the sacrifice of losing out on a force multiplying buff/debuff secondary. 

 

If we could go back to 2006 or so when Gravity Control for Doms was being constructed, Gravity Control would lose Lift and Propel in favor of some kind of control power and Lift/Propel would go in a "Gravity Assault" set. But since that's probably not in the cards, some kind of solution is hopefully attainable. 

 

Unfortunately I can only point out the issue, I don't have the solution. 🙂 

Edited December 8, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Dragon Crush]

So, as you said you don't have a solution, but are you thinking more along the lines of "the blast-y controller set needs to be nerfed" or "the control-lite dominator set needs to be buffed". I likely won't have much to add since I  only have had 1 baby grav controller, but knowing the direction might help with theory crafting.

And as I type this, if going for buffs I'm thinking doms need a distinct version like how controllers get dark affinity as opposed to dark miasma, but I'd need to think more how it could be implemented without slamming into cottage rule hard.

[Greycat]

And here I thought the Propel "problem" would be "try to use it on teams, the target's often dead before you're done animating. Try to use it solo, the target dies of old age."

 

Honestly, I don't see it as an issue that one of the lowest damage ATs has a set that has two attacks that can do damage. Yes, some sets have +damage or -resist. Others don't, or require a teammate to apply it consistently. As far as "worth it" for a dom? Doms have a secondary that's entirely damage. I don't think any dom's really complaining.

[Riverdusk]

10 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

So, as you said you don't have a solution, but are you thinking more along the lines of "the blast-y controller set needs to be nerfed" or "the control-lite dominator set needs to be buffed". I likely won't have much to add since I  only have had 1 baby grav controller, but knowing the direction might help with theory crafting.

And as I type this, if going for buffs I'm thinking doms need a distinct version like how controllers get dark affinity as opposed to dark miasma, but I'd need to think more how it could be implemented without slamming into cottage rule hard.

Agree, I think it'd involve replacing lift or propel (probably lift as propel is kind of iconic and I know some play gravity just for the fun of throwing junk around) with a new or significantly altered power.   I wouldn't be against it, but it'd take some careful thought.   You could just give doms a temp damage boost buff every time they use lift/propel, but that gets into the whole issue of some people would complain you are forcing them to use certain powers or use them in certain order.  I could see it though as then it'd help boost their secondary damage.

 

The lines may be blurred more for them than most between controller/dom sets, but it also has to kept in mind Doms still have some advantages.  Biggest one probably is having much easier access to AoE damage (probably THE biggest issue for gravity controllers).  They also still have more powerful controls and they still have easy access to status protection.   Compared to other doms it is also nice having a pet that is useful and arguably the most survivable on its own.  I'm not against some change, but they do have enough advantages I wouldn't be so quick to say the set isn't worth playing as a dom even as is. 

 

[oedipus_tex]

6 hours ago, Greycat said:

As far as "worth it" for a dom? Doms have a secondary that's entirely damage. I don't think any dom's really complaining.

 

Are more than a handful of people playing Gravity Dominators? I have tried a few times and after looking at the resulting build either rerolled as a Controller or as a Dominator with a different primary. I can't think of any time I've teamed with a high end Gravity Dominator. The only build I can think of that might stand out is Grav/Psi, because of Drain Psyche and generally low damage in the Psi base attacks. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Greycat]

15 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Are more than a handful of people playing Gravity Dominators? I have tried a few times and after looking at the resulting build either rerolled as a Controller or as a Dominator with a different primary. I can't think of any time I've teamed with a high end Gravity Dominator. The only build I can think of that might stand out is Grav/Psi, because of Drain Psyche and generally low damage in the Psi base attacks. 

OK, that's you. I've got one here I play on occasion. But that doesn't matter, since that doesn't reflect population - either in numbers or reasoning, just "what I remember seeing." I haven't felt "why bother" on any I've played here or on live. The only reason I don't roll more, or roll one as a controller instead, tends to be concept.

Heck, if I were going "what's broken because I don't remember seeing them," I'd say nobody plays Earth control as a dom. I definitely see (and remember hearing comments on) Propel "litter" far more often than I see a dom sticking people in rock. Same with Electric - I probably see more Elec controllers (not least because there's electric affinity to go with the theme) than I remember seeing doms - but that doesn't man my perception's correct, or that I can really give any conclusions for the reasoning for people playing (or not) those doms.

[Dragon Crush]

As for it being (possibly) the least played dom set, while that could be indicative of set issues, for every AT there needs to be a least popular set. As long as it's just "not the best" and people aren't coming up with great concepts to use it then that would be less of a problem than "broken and under-performs by a massive amount". The former might be something that gets looked at eventually, where the latter would need much more attention more urgently. But seeing as this is the suggestion forum and you don't seem to be saying "this needs to be fixed now" then kicking around ideas that might be implemented at some point in the distant future certainly doesn't hurt.

 

As for making it more blast-y for doms and not tearing down the cottage (still thinking on that), maybe have their version of lift and propel add some +damage to all attacks for a short while rather than just having the bonus damage from gravity distortion so that while it won't necessarily be the best on it's own, it could help boost whatever secondary the dom is using.

[oedipus_tex]

5 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

As for making it more blast-y for doms and not tearing down the cottage (still thinking on that), maybe have their version of lift and propel add some +damage to all attacks for a short while rather than just having the bonus damage from gravity distortion so that while it won't necessarily be the best on it's own, it could help boost whatever secondary the dom is using.

 

I agree. This is what I think the solution probably should be. A properly translated Gravity Dominator should still be blast-y. Probaby Impact should work on the Assualt powers somehow. What I'm less sure of is at what threshold the Dominator begins to encroach on the allowed damage for other damage dealers like Corruptors and Blasters.

 

If I had the ability to do it over completely, Propel and Lift would be in a "Gravity Assault" set instead of a control set on Dominators, and both powers would be replaced with some kind of control. Gravity Control lands in an awkward spot. It has no AoE control other than Wormhole and the AoE Hold. Even the much maligned Ice Control has Arctic Air, Ice Slick and Flash Freeze, but at least it brings some actual control to the picture.

Edited December 9, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Troo]

7 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

involve replacing lift or propel

take it back.. TAKE IT BACK!!

 

Two cool powers that may not have great 'numbers' but are really fun. Also two powers that would benefit from a knock distance = +dam.

[oedipus_tex]

26 minutes ago, Troo said:

take it back.. TAKE IT BACK!!

 

Two cool powers that may not have great 'numbers' but are really fun. Also two powers that would benefit from a knock distance = +dam.

 

At this point it's too late anyway. They'd still have been available, just available as Assault powers instead. So you could have a Ice Controller who hurls trash cans at people and what not.

[Troo]

22 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

At this point it's too late anyway. They'd still have been available, just available as Assault powers instead. So you could have a Ice Controller who hurls trash cans at people and what not.

I see, you're saying Lift and Propel would have fit better in an Assault power set rather than a Control set.

 

While I find a lot of control and utility with knockup and knockback, I get that not everyone does. Would I be okay with those two powers in an Assault set, hell yes!

 

Gravity's problems really lay elsewhere..

[Dragon Crush]

Yeah, a gravity assault set might be enough to make grav doms more popular, thematically I have trouble really pairing it with anything but maybe psy and energy right now and kinda feel like it might be stretching it.

[oedipus_tex]

Part of it is just derivative of issues left over from the original Gravity Control. It was poor on Controllers and very poor on Dominators. Propel was an "attack" (quotes required) with a 3 second or so animation time. It was questionable on Controllers and the very essence of a question mark on Dominators because its DPA (it had nothing else but single target knockdown) was out performed by even their T1 Assault powers. No one took Propel... for that matter no one played Gravity Dominators.

 

It wasn't until near the end of the life of the original game when Gravity was changed to its current state. Impact was added and is very nice for Controllers. For Dominators, its better (maybe?) but still a tangle. Basically when building a Gravity Dominator you need to go through each attack in the Assault set and compare it to Lift / Propel and figure out what's worth taking from each set. There are a few sets with low ranged damage where Lift/Propel are clearly superior to the Assault blasts. Psi Assault for example, and possibly thing like Earth Assault which add some extra AoE. For other sets the numbers pull pretty close and its like... why is this power in a Control primary set?

 

Nutshell:  When Gravity Control got its update the DPA of Gravity's Blasts with and without Impact wasn't compared to the Assault set damage, nor was it taken into consideration that Controllers will do more damage than Dominators because of Containment. It is true some Controllers have less AoE capability than some Dominators, but most Dominators are not AoE masters. Storm, Trick Arrow, Poison, Traps are all Controller sets that can compete in this area while offering more safety and utility and happen to pair very well with Gravity Control.

[VortexMaster]

I am in no way saying you don't have a point about the lift/propel dilemma, mostly just pointing out that someone out there probably has a build/character that they do well with that's outside of what would be considered the norm. As in this case I love my Dominator and do very well with him.

I have a level 50 Gravity/Dark Dominator with Perma Domination and Softcapped range defense, I do not have lift in my build. I love this toon and have a blast playing him, He feels quite powerful to me, and I have no issues playing him. It took quite a while to get the build "right" A big part of it is the perma domination, its one of the best inherent powers in the game as far as I am concerned.

   It has the following effects. Quoted form the wiki "Your control powers will typically last 50% longer and will more easily Dominate stronger opponents. Additionally, you will completely recover your Endurance" "Domination protects the villain from Knockback/Knockup, Repel, Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Fear, and Confuse effects, and can be activated even while suffering from them to break the villain free." "Domination doubles the magnitude of the villain's own Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Immobilize, Fear, and Confuse effects for their normal durations, then keeps them going at normal magnitude for half that amount of time longer."

   In Short I get a constant flow of Endurance to help balance out the high end usage of Dark Assault, I have constant status effect protection, my Mez are stronger and last longer, and  with soul mastery as my patron powers I have a few area effect damage powers. Dark Obliteration, NightFall, Souldrain, Dark Consumption, and Engufling Darkness. Now the last three are PBAOE, but once things are held/stunned its not an issue to get in close to pop one or two off.  Furthermore with Sudden acceleration knockback to knockdown slotted in wormhole its quit the handy/fun power. Oh and I love Propel its such a unique power, maybe not the best or most efficient. It is better that it used to be and quite fun to use.

   For me the reason to play a Dominator vs a Controller is partly about the range damage potential from the Assault set, part of it is thematic, and the biggest part is how amazing domination is. With softcaped range def and mez protection he does not die often which is fun and more efficent.  As I have him built he can stay in the back or flying above and use range attacks, and occasionally move in close when its safe to hit his PBAOES.

  Just kind of throwing out there my build and why I have a dominator vs a controller with gravity control. Not saying I would be against some kind of fix, but for me I just sidestepped some of the issue altogether by not taking lift, its a power in the set that I have never cared for. So for me honestly my issue is more with lift than propel, I would not mind if propel did some AoE damage in addition to its AoE knockdown, that would make up some for its slow cast time I think. Lift, well I don't know, its slow cast/animate time was a big enough issue for me that I skipped it entirely.

 

 

 

Edited December 9, 2020 by VortexMaster
Spelling/General Fixing

[AxerJ]

I love my Grav/Fire dom - and I oh-so-love Lift for the pure fun of launching Hellions past the top of small buildings. Lift + multicolored fire attacks is how I make homemade fireworks =P My Grav/Fire dom is one of my most fun characters, actually. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by AxerJ

[Solarverse]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:54 AM, Greycat said:

And here I thought the Propel "problem" would be "try to use it on teams, the target's often dead before you're done animating. Try to use it solo, the target dies of old age.".

Didn't they already decrease the time taken for it to animate? I just ran some tests and Propel only has a 1.235 second Activation time between the time it activates to the time the target takes damage. That's pretty damn fast. I would post my video footage with the time scale in place but sadly we can't post in game footage yet. If memory servers me correctly, that is a hell of a lot faster than it used to be. Seems like it used to take a solid 2.5 seconds from activation to hit in the old days. Check it out and get back to me on that.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Solarverse

[Uun]

As of March 2020, Gravity was the second least popular primary for doms, but the third most popular primary for controllers.

 

  

[oedipus_tex]

13 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Didn't they already decrease the time taken for it to animate? I just ran some tests and Propel only has a 1.235 second Activation time between the time it activates to the time the target takes damage. That's pretty damn fast. I would post my video footage with the time scale in place but sadly we can't post in game footage yet. If memory servers me correctly, that is a hell of a lot faster than it used to be. Seems like it used to take a solid 2.5 seconds from activation to hit in the old days. Check it out and get back to me on that.

 

Yes they decreased the cast time drastically. The original cast time was absurd. For some reason the number 3.3 seconds sticks in mind, but that could be wrong.

[Solarverse]

10 minutes ago, Uun said:

As of March 2020, Gravity was the second least popular primary for doms, but the third most popular primary for controllers.

 

  

As it was also pointed out to me, popularity is not a very good indicator to functionality. For an example, Claws/Regen was the most popular Scrapper set back in 2019, however, we all know that is a horrible combination in functionality. Another example is that /Fire Brutes are the absolute most popular Brutes out there, even though functionality shows us that /Fire is only good for one thing and that is fighting against Fire Damage with no CCs.

Not saying that your graph does not contribute to your argument and is not a valid piece of evidence, however, I am saying that it is not exactly definitive evidence.

[oedipus_tex]

Those graphs look pretty indicative to me, personally. Mind Control dead last on Controllers with Ice, Electric, Earth making up the next bottom three--oh for sure hell yes. That situation deserves its own thread. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Solarverse]

Just now, oedipus_tex said:

Those graphs look pretty indicative to me, personally. Mind Control dead last on Controllers with Ice, Electric, Earth making up the next bottom three--oh for sure hell yes. That situation deserves its own thread. 

The reverse can be said about Mind Control or even Plant. Mind being dead last for Controllers but being #2 for Doms. Plant being #1 for Doms but #4 for Controllers. That's why I say those graphs are indeed supporting evidence, they just aren't definitive.

[Greycat]

40 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Didn't they already decrease the time taken for it to animate? I just ran some tests and Propel only has a 1.235 second Activation time between the time it activates to the time the target takes damage.  lot faster than it used to be. Seems like it used to take a solid 2.5 seconds from activation to hit in the old days. Check it out and get back to me on that.

Perhaps, but feel wise it still feels like a long time when I'm running on a team. I've shot cars into already defeated enemies more times than I care to admit (and they were quite healthy when I started.)

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

Perhaps, but feel wise it still feels like a long time when I'm running on a team. I've shot cars into already defeated enemies more times than I care to admit (and they were quite healthy when I started.)

LOL, I hear you there. I have fired Power Burst at Bosses that were at full health when I activated it, but were dead before the power hit the target, lol. It's insane!

[Naraka]

Have you ever got that feeling people are just bored so they start conversations about little inconsequential things like the meaning behind the last episode of season 3 Rick and Morty or if a hybrid attack/control power could be swapped around for more control that is not needed?

[Player2]

14 hours ago, Dragon Crush said:

Yeah, a gravity assault set might be enough to make grav doms more popular, thematically I have trouble really pairing it with anything but maybe psy and energy right now and kinda feel like it might be stretching it.

I now want this very much.  I want a Gravity Smash PBAoE attack with that jumping up in the air and coming down on a target with two fists animation  with the sound effect suggestive of building momentum.  Also a single target Gravity Punch...  secondary effects for these attacks should be more than just knockdown, though.  I'd like to see a brief (1 second) immobilize in midair akin to the way teleporters are stuck hovering for a moment before they are then slammed to the ground for a knockdown.  KaBOOM!  The tier 1 attack should be "Propel Lite" using small objects only and doing less damage but with much better animation time.  And maybe have a targeted AoE effect similar to Foot Stomp... like I just want to screw up gravity for people where ever I point my finger, damn it.

 

MOAR GRAVITY!!

Edited December 9, 2020 by Player2