Why not just roll a scrapper or tanker?

[jojogladco]

6 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'm very curious as well by your numbers given that BZB and Inf both got much much longer times. You mention being fully Incarnate, were you using all the Incarnate powers liberally?

 

@Bill Z Bubba, @Infinitum, could you perhaps slap on t4 powers and see if you match?

I ran my Kat/ENA Brute through full T4's, just Alpha, and then no Incarnates. For a DPS reference this build is a consistent 1:45 against a Pylon. 

 

No Incarantes was 12:15

Just Alpha at Tier 3 was 9:10

All Incarnates was 6:15 7:15

 

That's using Incarnates as effectively as I can, like herding the group at the 1st intersection into the dead end room to hit two spawns with Judgement and repeat that trick again for the two groups that spawn almost on top of each other on the right side of that room on I think floor 3. it's only 1 run of each so lots of noise.

 

I also ran my EM/RAD and RAD/EM brute/tanks through at full tier 4. Those are generally 1:35-1:40 and 1:45-1:50 Pylon toons for reference. Brute 6:10 7:10 and Tank 6:19 7:19 . 

 

Corrected times on Incarnate runs (this is why I should always check notes and not post from memory on lunch break)

Edited February 16, 2021 by jojogladco
Correct times

[Linea]

Quote

I'm very curious as well by your numbers given that BZB and Inf both got much much longer times.  You mention being fully Incarnate, were you using all the Incarnate powers liberally?

Yes.  As to T3 or T4, I'd have to to look, I'm as likely to be T3 as T4.  I've not been as overzealous T4ing lately as I used to be.  But nothing would be below T3.

I was running for speed/damage, solo, not protecting a team or any other distractions.  All those things severely effect performance.

The bigger problem you're going to run into here, is you're testing builds, players, and playstyles as much or more than you are sets.  I wasn't even beginning to try to be fair about testing sets, I was just curious what my main stable would do.  And I was hoping the empath would beat all the tanks /and/ survive to tell the tale so she could tease them all.  Unfortunately runners are a pain and she came in last.

I'm personally curious how Dahlia will do.  She's my only "Tank".  I'm curious to see how much that difference costs her.

 

Here's how I rate them.  Note I've not rated the Rad/Kat.  It should be slightly better than the Rad/Staff.

Name	Build	AT	Off	ST	AoE
Ciaraine	Water/Atomic	Blaster	94	81	100
Jilaiya Medici	Emp/Fire/Dark	Defender	79	77	80
Amhra	Kat/Bio	Scrapper	77	91	70
Kitana	Kat/EnA	Brute	60	87	47
Lucy Medrano (dam)	SD/RadM	Tank	59	77	50
Lucy Medrano (tank)	SD/RadM	Tank	52	57	50
Radicat	Rad Armor/Staff	Tank	50	57	47

 

Spoiler

Kat Bio Scrapper - Alpha 3 ITF - [i25].mxd Kat ENA - Mu 1i - [i25].mxd SD RadM Tank - Alpha 5b - [i25].mxd Rad Kat Tank - Radicat II - Mu 3f - [i25].mxd Water Atomic - Ciaraine 2b - [i25].mxd Emp Fire - Combat Medic Concept 4 - [i25].mxd

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Linea

[Linea]

Quote

 yeah i plan on it, thats got me very curious if Incarnates make the times that much better and then secondary to that which ones contribute the most.

I've always said (Full T4 Incarnates) are half your damage, and T4 is double T3, T4 or stay home.  This is not strictly true, but it's scarily relevant. 

 

Quote

No Incarantes was 12:15

Just Alpha at Tier 3 was 9:10

All Incarnates was 6:15

You're not helping me to change my mind.

 

A 1:45 pylon time is well above my normal dps levels on anything other than a stalker.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Linea

[Apparition]

I do now see why many power gamers now say that Brutes are good for solo play, but useless on teams.  If I form a PUG team on my Brute, I usually get a Tanker.  If that Tanker player isn't lazy, then that Tanker will always get aggro, superseding my own even if I use Taunt.  There's no such thing as an offtank in City of Heroes.  That essentially leaves my Brute as a wannabe poor man's Scrapper, unless I start going off one or two mob groups ahead and try to solo that until the group catches up with me.  I feel like I never get to use my Brute effectively on teams unless there are no Tankers on the team, which is extremely rare on a PUG team.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, Apparition said:

I do now see why many power gamers now say that Brutes are good for solo play, but useless on teams.  If I form a PUG team on my Brute, I usually get a Tanker.  If that Tanker player isn't lazy, then that Tanker will always get aggro, superseding my own even if I use Taunt.  There's no such thing as an offtank in City of Heroes.  That essentially leaves my Brute as a wannabe poor man's Scrapper, unless I start going off one or two mob groups ahead and try to solo that until the group catches up with me.  I feel like I never get to use my Brute effectively on teams unless there are no Tankers on the team, which is extremely rare on a PUG team.

Let me tell you the story of Redside. Sit down with something warm to drink.  Next to a fire, preferably burning on the bodies of your enemies.

 

The Devs envisioned MMs as Redside Tanks.  Do not ask me why.  Redside teams had no patience for that. Do you?  

 

So Redside teams let Brutes take the Alphas.  That is mostly it on a good team.  Not hold agro.  Not herd.  Soak the first strike and survive.  Then your team hits back with everything they got.  In busy maps.  (There are a LOT more busy maps Redside) where opponent mobs are close and splash agro is practically guaranteed a second Brute will take that Alpha.  If you do not have a second Brute that means you got Doms, Corr, MMs, something that can at least start to lock down the craziness.  

 

When teams learned the tactics well and built their toons to take advantage of it true ROFLSTOMP teams were born.  Leapfrogging from one giant room spawn to the next.  Brute taking the Alpha, team cleaning.  Second Brute (not off-brute) jumping to the next fresh spawn to start the process.  Players that like to clean mop up would be doing that and move on at the tail end of teams.  Brutes would be in the front.  Everyone else right behind the Brute.

 

If you build a Brute to Tank (taking Taunt, which is NOT required for ROFLSTOMP tactics) you can Tank okay with it.  Not quite as good as a Tanker because of the Agro mechanism on Taunt regarding Tanks.  I Tank with my Dark/Dark Brute on heavy Psi damage incarnate Trials.  My Brute does not have Taunt.  It aint necessary when you keep punching something in the face.

 

If, big if, You have a team where there is a traditional Tank and you try to "off-tank" and your team is slowly working the map from one less than 17 mob spawn until the next.  Yeah, you probably will not enjoy the experience.  If I am on a team doing that.....  I will be soloing the spawn ahead of you.  Wave to me.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

I do now see why many power gamers now say that Brutes are good for solo play, but useless on teams.  If I form a PUG team on my Brute, I usually get a Tanker.  If that Tanker player isn't lazy, then that Tanker will always get aggro, superseding my own even if I use Taunt.  There's no such thing as an offtank in City of Heroes.  That essentially leaves my Brute as a wannabe poor man's Scrapper, unless I start going off one or two mob groups ahead and try to solo that until the group catches up with me.  I feel like I never get to use my Brute effectively on teams unless there are no Tankers on the team, which is extremely rare on a PUG team.

I thought supposedly the newer brute changes changed fury generation based on team size to fix this issue. 

[Galaxy Brain]

3 hours ago, Linea said:

The bigger problem you're going to run into here, is you're testing builds, players, and playstyles as much or more than you are sets.  I wasn't even beginning to try to be fair about testing sets, I was just curious what my main stable would do.  And I was hoping the empath would beat all the tanks /and/ survive to tell the tale so she could tease them all.  Unfortunately runners are a pain and she came in last.

I'm personally curious how Dahlia will do.  She's my only "Tank".  I'm curious to see how much that difference costs her.

Well, tbqh its a bit of an unspoken rule to exclude Incarnates as they make everything kind of homogenized. All judgements hit the same AT to AT, etc.

 

The office map is made to be run multiple times and is one of the best in terms of being linear but "real" in terms of limiting herding the whole map and so on with elevators and blocked off segments (gentleman's rule to not herd through the doors you can open to not have tank n spank be as powerful). That said, with the same build and agreements the players should get *similar enough* results over time to be valid.

[Infinitum]

3 hours ago, Apparition said:

I do now see why many power gamers now say that Brutes are good for solo play, but useless on teams.  If I form a PUG team on my Brute, I usually get a Tanker.  If that Tanker player isn't lazy, then that Tanker will always get aggro, superseding my own even if I use Taunt.  There's no such thing as an offtank in City of Heroes.  That essentially leaves my Brute as a wannabe poor man's Scrapper, unless I start going off one or two mob groups ahead and try to solo that until the group catches up with me.  I feel like I never get to use my Brute effectively on teams unless there are no Tankers on the team, which is extremely rare on a PUG team.

Keep in mind I'm a tanker first when you read what I'm about to say.

 

Thats completely false - Any Brute can tank for power teams - in fact probably do it better than a tank because power teams are moving so fast and able to manage individual agro at speed - the brutes ability to dish out much better simgle target dmg pays off more in the long run because of their unique ability to pulverized hardened targets and not get dinged up doing it.

 

A lot of that does depend on how the brute is built - brutes dmg will always take care of itself - thats why you build for near tanker level of survivability.

[Haijinx]

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Keep in mind I'm a tanker first when you read what I'm about to say.

 

Thats completely false - Any Brute can tank for power teams - in fact probably do it better than a tank because power teams are moving so fast and able to manage individual agro at speed - the brutes ability to dish out much better simgle target dmg pays off more in the long run because of their unique ability to pulverized hardened targets and not get dinged up doing it.

 

A lot of that does depend on how the brute is built - brutes dmg will always take care of itself - thats why you build for near tanker level of survivability.

That's probably not a unique ability.

 

Scrappers, Stalkers, Widows all say hi

 

[Infinitum]

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

That's probably not a unique ability.

 

Scrappers, Stalkers, Widows all say hi

 

Somewhat true but the 90% brute resistance cap also says hi - they are more equipped to handle alpha plus engulfment by an enemy spawn than the other three.

 

Not to mention brutes have a way better capacity and capability to retain agro than those three - that's not saying they cant take point - but thats different than tanking - which the brute is capable of.

[Apparition]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I thought supposedly the newer brute changes changed fury generation based on team size to fix this issue. 

 

27 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Keep in mind I'm a tanker first when you read what I'm about to say.

 

Thats completely false - Any Brute can tank for power teams - in fact probably do it better than a tank because power teams are moving so fast and able to manage individual agro at speed - the brutes ability to dish out much better simgle target dmg pays off more in the long run because of their unique ability to pulverized hardened targets and not get dinged up doing it.

 

A lot of that does depend on how the brute is built - brutes dmg will always take care of itself - thats why you build for near tanker level of survivability.

 

My point is that Brutes are now in the position where they can no longer effectively Tank on most teams unless they jump a couple of groups ahead of the rest of the team and effectively solo for the entirety of the mission, and they do not do as much damage as Scrappers.  So that pretty much means that on teams they are no longer as effective in either role they were designed for.

[Infinitum]

12 minutes ago, Apparition said:

My point is that Brutes are now in the position where they can no longer effectively Tank on most teams unless they jump a couple of groups ahead of the rest of the team and effectively solo for the entirety of the mission, and they do not do as much damage as Scrappers.  So that pretty much means that on teams they are no longer as effective in either role they were designed for.

Yeah see I don't think the dmg gap is that large between brute and scrapper - don't get me wrong I like them both - but the brute dmg potential IMO is more stable now that fury generation is so stable - but scrapper dmg while having a little more potential is dependent on critical hits.

 

Also the brute doesnt have to be several spawns ahead any more than a tanker would - hit that first heavy dude in the spawn with a air then ST it to death - keep fighting till the mob is subdued then move on while the team follows - thats pretty much the same on tanker or brute.

 

I don't think at the end of the day the gap is large enough in either aspect to say the brute lost either role - they share it better if anything.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Infinitum

[Snarky]

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

 

My point is that Brutes are now in the position where they can no longer effectively Tank on most teams unless they jump a couple of groups ahead of the rest of the team and effectively solo for the entirety of the mission, and they do not do as much damage as Scrappers.  So that pretty much means that on teams they are no longer as effective in either role they were designed for.

Okay.  I still hear what you are saying.  And you are wrong.  The statement above is just word smush that means nothing.  "Brutes ane now in a position where they can no longer effictively Tank on most teams unless they jump a couple groups ahead...."  WTF does that even mean?  I mean yes.  i read it.  I understand the words.  Can you explain how going off solo is "Tanking?"

 

It has been said, time and again.  and again.  and then one more time.  Brutes can Tank.  For A team.  

 

Forget it.  i am out for coffee.  

[Haijinx]

The only real reason for a Brute to try and steal aggro from a tanker was for fury.

 

If that isn't so much a thing now, then?  Why does it matter?

[Infinitum]

Just now, Haijinx said:

The only real reason for a Brute to try and steal aggro from a tanker was for fury.

 

If that isn't so much a thing now, then?  Why does it matter?

It don't - thats really not the topic - the topic is whether or not brutes can tank - which requires agro management - which a brute has.

 

Also whether or not brute dmg is so totally eclipsed by Scrappers to where its pointless to roll a brute.

 

The answer is that brutes are still useful and effective in both roles - at the same time in fact.

[Apparition]

3 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

It don't - thats really not the topic - the topic is whether or not brutes can tank - which requires agro management - which a brute has.

 

Also whether or not brute dmg is so totally eclipsed by Scrappers to where its pointless to roll a brute.

 

The answer is that brutes are still useful and effective in both roles - at the same time in fact.

 

That actually is the topic.  I know that Brutes can tank.  I have done it and can do it well as my Brutes have Taunt.  The point is that the Brute can no longer effectively tank while there's also a Tanker on the team, unless jumping ahead of the rest of the team and effectively soloing the mission.  If you don't do that, then the Brute is effectively a Scrapper that does less DPS, so the team would be better off with a Scrapper.

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

That actually is the topic.  I know that Brutes can tank.  I have done it and can do it well as my Brutes have Taunt.  The point is that the Brute can no longer effectively tank while there's also a Tanker on the team, unless jumping ahead of the rest of the team and effectively soloing the mission.  If you don't do that, then the Brute is effectively a Scrapper that does less DPS, so the team would be better off with a Scrapper.

I think you are overexaggerating the divide between a brute and a scrapper in terms of dmg and also between a brute and tanker in terms of agro.

 

Even now I can grab agro from a tanker if we both are facing down an AV - so what if the tankers milkshake brings all the council to the yard - in still going to hit them harder and take more of them out and do it just as well as a scrapper with my brutes.

 

You can't go wrong with any of them really - and the differences isnt so drastic thats "mah gah what's this newb doin here with this brute"  no they are fine - all three are fine - all has a place and works interchangeably.

[Erratic1]

I spent a goodly chunk of yesterday playing first a Brute and then a Tanker  in groups running +4/8. In both groups I was the primary alpha taker, there being no other Brutes or Tankers when on the Brute, and there being a Brute in the group where I was on my Tanker.

 

My Brute suffered a few defeats when I did not appropriately time various soak abilities. The Tanker came close only once, then I remembered I had inspirations and should use  them. Both groups used my characters for absorbing the big hits but the feel was different in that with the Brute I stayed with the group until the current pack was down before moving on to the next whereas with the Tanker I would typically move on and start herding together a couple of groups while the team finished up. However I never on the Tanker felt like I was really meaningfully contributing to the damage like I did on the Brute, even with a sea of orange numbers flying up around the Tanker--even when the Tanker was buffed to the gills. It was a nice mass of numbers but there was none of the fully buffed Brutes, one, two, or three shots, "Oh, the trash surrounding my target is low in life, I'll just Foot Stomp, kill it, and follow up by putting down what I have targeted" action.

 

Both fun in their way, neither felt useless.

[Frosticus]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:18 PM, Haijinx said:

 

Also why bone smasher for the ATO?  Some were suggesting Total Focus. 

 

 

Enhancement unslotters are cheap, so I'd say try it out and see where it works best for you.

 

45% of the time it works 65% of the time.

[Infinitum]

2 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Enhancement unslotters are cheap, so I'd say try it out and see where it works best for you.

 

45% of the time it works 65% of the time.

Oooo i wonder if homecoming would make an exception and allow a toon named sex panther.  lol

[twozerofoxtrot]

Okay so, first:

 

On 2/16/2021 at 6:23 AM, Apparition said:

If I form a PUG team on my Brute, I usually get a Tanker.  If that Tanker player isn't lazy, then that Tanker will always get aggro, superseding my own even if I use Taunt.

This was exactly the position of Tankers vs. Brutes before the tanker buffs hit, only reversed.

 

Without rehashing the damage and target cap aspects, the way taunting was supercharged on tankers was absolutely necessary (as were the Fury changes to compensate) because as a Tanker, if I started a group and a competent Brute joined, I might as well have passed star and quit right then. It wouldn't matter if I was double stacking rage, it wouldn't matter if I was chaining Footstomp, Taunt, and Dark Obliteration (ooof my Ends!), that well-played Brute was taking my agro, and soaking the hits, and I couldn't do anything about it. And if they leapfrogged me, the team would just follow them and leave me there flapping in the wind.  It was impossible to tank on a Tanker with a Brute around.

 

It got so bad I actually just stopped grouping. Just flat-out stopped, somewhere around early Nov 2019. My Tanker became a badger and that's all I did with her. Solo. Mostly cause she was my most-played and had a lead on badges.

 

If I wanted to tank for teams, I'd pull my Brute out.

 

On 2/16/2021 at 10:40 AM, Apparition said:

The point is that the Brute can no longer effectively tank while there's also a Tanker on the team, unless jumping ahead of the rest of the team and effectively soloing the mission.

 

At least the Brute actually has that as a realistic option. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the literal namesake AT of the function shouldn't be the primary AT for said function? If Stalkers were called Singletargeters, would it not sound absurd to complain about how Scrappers aren't at parity with them in dishing out single target melee damage?

[Apparition]

31 minutes ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

Okay so, first:

 

This was exactly the position of Tankers vs. Brutes before the tanker buffs hit, only reversed.

 

Without rehashing the damage and target cap aspects, the way taunting was supercharged on tankers was absolutely necessary (as were the Fury changes to compensate) because as a Tanker, if I started a group and a competent Brute joined, I might as well have passed star and quit right then. It wouldn't matter if I was double stacking rage, it wouldn't matter if I was chaining Footstomp, Taunt, and Dark Obliteration (ooof my Ends!), that well-played Brute was taking my agro, and soaking the hits, and I couldn't do anything about it. And if they leapfrogged me, the team would just follow them and leave me there flapping in the wind.  It was impossible to tank on a Tanker with a Brute around.

 

It got so bad I actually just stopped grouping. Just flat-out stopped, somewhere around early Nov 2019. My Tanker became a badger and that's all I did with her. Solo. Mostly cause she was my most-played and had a lead on badges.

 

If I wanted to tank for teams, I'd pull my Brute out.

 

 

At least the Brute actually has that as a realistic option. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the literal namesake AT of the function shouldn't be the primary AT for said function? If Stalkers were called Singletargeters, would it not sound absurd to complain about how Scrappers aren't at parity with them in dishing out single target melee damage?

 

No.  What I am saying is that Brutes need something because as they stand in the game now, they do not tank as well as Tankers (or do not tank at all if there is a Tanker on the team and there usually is), do not do as much AoE damage as Tankers, and just plain do not do as much damage as Scrappers.  If you have the option of Tanker, Brute, or Scrapper for your team, there is no legitimate, objective reason to pick Brute.  They no longer have a clear function on teams, and anything they can do can be done better by either Tanker or Scrapper.

 

That's one of the reasons why I'm having so much trouble staying with a melee character now.  I've been a red sider since City of Villains launched in October 2005.  I've always preferred red side to blue side, including the ATs.  I do not like Tankers, and I do not like Scrappers.  However, I can no longer legitimately come up with an objective reason to play a Brute on Homecoming.  Not when Tankers tank better and do more AoE damage, and when Scrappers just plain do more damage.  So I've just stopped playing melee altogether. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Apparition

[Bill Z Bubba]

A fun side note... found out my shield/em tank, with saturated AAO, has better single target damage than my claws/sr scrapper. Not by much, granted, bout 5 seconds faster than the scrapper's average, bet if I ran more tests they'd even out around 3 minutes on a pylon... but it amused me. A tank... taking down a pylon in the same time as a scrapper. With vastly more mitigation.

 

BALANCE!

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

A fun side note... found out my shield/em tank, with saturated AAO, has better single target damage than my claws/sr scrapper. Not by much, granted, bout 5 seconds faster than the scrapper's average, bet if I ran more tests they'd even out around 3 minutes on a pylon... but it amused me. A tank... taking down a pylon in the same time as a scrapper. With vastly more mitigation.

 

BALANCE!

 

Yep.  Tankers were overbuffed and do too much damage now.

[twozerofoxtrot]

5 minutes ago, Apparition said:

What I am saying is that Brutes need something because as they stand in the game now, they do not tank as well as Tankers

And I'm of the opinion that they should not. Nobody should tank as well as Tankers. Again, my opinion, but also I think probably the general design philosophy. 

 

As to whether they should be doing more or less AoE damage as tankers, I'm not touching that. More savvy testers already concluded that Brutes are clearing faster than Tankers (albeit small margins) so I'm not inclined to believe the impact is as severe as you say. 

 

11 minutes ago, Apparition said:

If you have the option of Tanker, Brute, or Scrapper for your team, there is no legitimate, objective reason to pick Brute.

Legitimate? Objective? 

Pick for your team?

 

Can we go back to how we actually play this game? When was the last time anyone seriously cherry-picked ATs for a team (that um, wasn't a debuffer for Reichsman)?

 

I roll Brutes because they fit a concept. I roll Brutes because I want to be able to bulldoze everything and have fun with an actual attack chain below level 20.  I have never once, for any of my characters (including Tankers) rolled them and thought "Oh jeez, will people not let me join their team?"  We all understand it doesn't work like that.

 

The only real hang-up for not picking a Brute? You're not going to be the best at 1 thing. Sorry. But it has that in common with a lot of other ATs.