Energy Aura for Tankers?

[ValiantBlu]

So, I haven't played this game since like 2008, I came back around November(?) and I was a kid when I last played, I had no idea what I was doing and so I didn't exactly bring much knowledge with me when I did return.

My first Homecoming main was my EM/EA Brute, and I very much enjoyed the sets aesthetically but I struggled because I didn't fully understand how to build him (I still don't fully understand, but I've improved my build by a lot since I hit 50). I just really wanted the flavor of a tanky boi who uses energy to attack and defend. EM/EA brute fits the bill for sure, but since I didn't understand how to build him, I wasn't a huge fan since I just felt super squishy as a tank (which I would later learn was a me problem). I've rerolled the toon a bunch, trying different combinations of Brutes and Tankers, eventually coming back to the original (thankfully I had the foresight to rename rather than delete).

So at first I thought it just wasn't a viable Tanker set since it was based on Defense instead of Resistance, that would explain why I felt so squishy using it, right? But then I realized that SR is a Tanker set based almost entirely on positional Defense (whereas EA is based on damage types). Then I decided it must be because positional Defense is just more viable than damage type Defense since it's easier to stack a bunch of defense bonuses into Melee Defense or AoE Defense, but I would later learn that my Brute is kinda tanky af once I got a clue how to build him, I also learned that base value of SR's Defense bonuses changes between Brutes and Tankers by a lot (Focused Fighting grants 18.5% base Defense on Tankers, 13.9% for Brutes); now granted SR does not grant you infinite energy, but it does buff your speed and attack rate. Then I decided maybe it's not a Tanker set because it grants stealth, and that's not very useful for a Tank, but then DA Tankers exist. Maybe because it grants like infinite energy and you never have to worry about running out of power between Energize and Energy Drain, but then Invulnerability gets a ton of passives that cost literally nothing, and having all toggles on costs less than 1 point of end/sec.

Finally today I just realized there's really no reason why EA shouldn't be available to Tankers. It's kind of a great foil to DA as well, both are based primarily on toggles, but one grants resistance and the other grants defense, both have stealth powers, one steals enemy health the other steals enemy end, and in that way it offers something kind of great to the Tanker class. Plus, aesthetically, nothing else looks like it. You get a unique flavor and playstyle.

 

TL;DR

 

EA should be a Tanker set. It would not be an easy set to use as a Tanker, but looking at how similar it is to sets like DA and SR, and how tanky EA brutes can become, I actually don't really see what the problem is. Aesthetically it has a very unique flavor that other Tank sets just can't deliver, and the playstyle is fun as heck. The only really necessary change is improving base Def values to make it on par with SR.

Edited January 19, 2021 by ValiantBlu

[CrudeVileTerror]

It's a decently popular idea:

 https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/2926-energy-aura-for-tanks/

 https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/11542-a-formal-request/

 https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/23645-energy-aura-for-tankers/

 https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/24062-energy-aura-for-tank/

 

However, as seen with https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/11542-a-formal-request/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-113600 it's on at least @Captain Powerhouse's radar insomuch as Powerhouse won't be porting it over as-is.

[aethereal]

Yeah, the basic problem is EA is arguably overpowered on everyone, and with Tanker values would be crazy overpowered.

[Infinitum]

23 hours ago, aethereal said:

Yeah, the basic problem is EA is arguably overpowered on everyone, and with Tanker values would be crazy overpowered.

It's not really though - in the right hands it's a technicians play - but if you mess up any sequence for survival you all of the sudden find yourself squishy.

 

It has a huge toxic issue and the same old psionic issue most toons have.

 

I ran numbers on this a few weeks ago and it's basically a clicky version of invul - so there is no reason to not port it over.

 

See below:

 

That's base brute numbers invul vs EA saturated. I'm pretty sure that's with both energy drain and invincibility saturated.

 

Extrapolate that to tanker numbers using invul as a guide from brute to tanker.

 

 

No reason to not port it.

 

It's a clicky invul that's not quite as durable.

[aethereal]

Compared to invul, it's got endurance management, a heal that you can use tactically, and a bunch of regen, albeit none of the giant max hp buff.

 

But also, it interacts well with the environment: invul on takers finds it easy to massively overcap s/l resistance and defense, while EA has better energy values, and you can get some of the prolific s/l resistance (tough plus sets), and defense (sets including kinetic combat and blistering cold).

[Infinitum]

On 1/21/2021 at 1:33 AM, aethereal said:

Compared to invul, it's got endurance management, a heal that you can use tactically, and a bunch of regen, albeit none of the giant max hp buff.

 

But also, it interacts well with the environment: invul on takers finds it easy to massively overcap s/l resistance and defense, while EA has better energy values, and you can get some of the prolific s/l resistance (tough plus sets), and defense (sets including kinetic combat and blistering cold).

Those are nice, but if comparing to invul - it has no issues in any of those areas - in fact I only cast dull pain for the HP buff to run perma capped HP.  

 

You don't need heals or end with a properly built invul.

 

With EA you actually need those clicky buffs to survive (similar to absorbs in rad) which is why I said it was a clicky version of invul where invul is the Ron Popeil set it and forget it variety.  They both mitigate similarly.

 

This is my invul build with only 1 stack of the ATO.

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Infinitum

[aethereal]

Right, so clearly that character would be better with lower S/L resists and higher energy resists.  And somewhat more arguably lower S/L defense and higher energy defense.  I mean, level 50 tankers are all fairly unkillable, so maybe who cares, but you have way past capped S/L mitigation (99%), even in incarnate environments, while your incarnate energy damage mitigation could get almost an order of magnitude better, and even in non- incarnate environments it could get more than 2.5 times better.

[Infinitum]

35 minutes ago, aethereal said:

Right, so clearly that character would be better with lower S/L resists and higher energy resists.  And somewhat more arguably lower S/L defense and higher energy defense.  I mean, level 50 tankers are all fairly unkillable, so maybe who cares, but you have way past capped S/L mitigation (99%), even in incarnate environments, while your incarnate energy damage mitigation could get almost an order of magnitude better, and even in non- incarnate environments it could get more than 2.5 times better.

No I'm saying its close to capped to everything once the ATO stacks 2 more times 84% on fire cold energy neg energy.

 

SL is what you want capped and even over capping isn't bad because almost everything in the game has a SL element to it.

 

Energy Aura is similar in that it accomplishes that more with SL defense with lesser resists but ends up at the same mitigation once you factor in the tactical heal/regen also.

 

Things eventually get through to EA especially toxic whereas on invul it really doesn't - luckily EA has the clicks to bring it to the same level of performance Invul has.  At the end its basically a busy body invul clicker.

[Infinitum]

Basically what I'm getting at is its a mirage that EA would be any more OP than anything else already there if it were ported to tankers.

 

I dont think it would be the best by any logical reasoning and practical gameplay I have experienced. I have all the tanker armor sets at least one of each and I think EA would fall somewhere like this Stone, Invul, Dark, EA, Shield, (maybe Shield, EA), Ice, Willpower, SR, Rad, Elec, Fire.

 

In terms of a broad scale shear survivability against debuffers/multiple dmg types at once Etc.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Infinitum

[Gobbledigook]

I agree with @Infinitum. I see no reason why EA should not be ported over. It would be no better than some other Tanker sets.

 

SHield and invuln are nigh unlikable. SR will have very defence and can hit 90% resistances on top. To name a few other defence sets.

[CrudeVileTerror]

I believe the crux of the issue is Energy Drain.

Out of the gate on a Brute, it's 1 minute cooldown, with 45 second up-time.  Grants 0.38 Defense per target, 10 targets max, 0.75 Defense for first target hit.

SOs can get that to 30 second cooldown, with 0.608 / 1.2 Defense.  Giving the opportunity for 13.344 Defense.

Then you get that sucker ramped up with IO Set Bonuses and Global Recharge.

 

THEN you scale it to Tanker numbers.

-That- is what (to the best of my understanding) is @Captain Powerhouse's primary hang-up on giving Energy Aura to Tankers.

Powerhouse would naturally need to explain their stance directly, though.  I'd rather not disseminate misinformation.

[arcane]

54 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

I agree with @Infinitum. I see no reason why EA should not be ported over. It would be no better than some other Tanker sets.

 

SHield and invuln are nigh unlikable. SR will have very defence and can hit 90% resistances on top. To name a few other defence sets.

Off-topic but I’m still trying to figure out how to play my SR tank right. Sure he doesn’t die, but having to hang out with low health to get to your high damage resistance feels and looks wrong 😕

[Gobbledigook]

10 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Off-topic but I’m still trying to figure out how to play my SR tank right. Sure he doesn’t die, but having to hang out with low health to get to your high damage resistance feels and looks wrong 😕

It does lol but it works.

[Infinitum]

56 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I believe the crux of the issue is Energy Drain.

Out of the gate on a Brute, it's 1 minute cooldown, with 45 second up-time.  Grants 0.38 Defense per target, 10 targets max, 0.75 Defense for first target hit.

SOs can get that to 30 second cooldown, with 0.608 / 1.2 Defense.  Giving the opportunity for 13.344 Defense.

Then you get that sucker ramped up with IO Set Bonuses and Global Recharge.

 

THEN you scale it to Tanker numbers.

-That- is what (to the best of my understanding) is @Captain Powerhouse's primary hang-up on giving Energy Aura to Tankers.

Powerhouse would naturally need to explain their stance directly, though.  I'd rather not disseminate misinformation.

I ran those numbers on another thread Brute invul vs Brute EA and it still matches up to invul there pretty closely with EA having higher defenses and invul having higher resists. That's with both saturated. 

 

Either way it's very similar and at the end of the day you still have to remember to click the power on EA whereas Invul its auto.  Without that click EA is a lot weaker under duress than invul.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Infinitum

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

It does lol but it works.

SR - It's almost like a mini game "Oooop you almost had me"

[SeraphimKensai]

15 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

SR - It's almost like a mini game "Oooop you almost had me"

Yeah SR tank is pretty much, you better get a hell of a lucky alpha strike that can basically one shot me, otherwise I ain't dying.

 

Regarding EA as a Tank Armor, I'd be alright bringing it over to Tanks (they can even keep the defense modifier on Energy Drain where it's at). Maybe revamp Overload to rather provide more DDR, and exotic damage type resistances instead of defense.

[aethereal]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

No I'm saying its close to capped to everything once the ATO stacks 2 more times 84% on fire cold energy neg energy.

 

SL is what you want capped and even over capping isn't bad because almost everything in the game has a SL element to it.

Overcapping that much seems pretty silly to me.  You're 10% above incarnate defense softcap and I dunno how much over resist cap.  Meanwhile, you're 9% under incarnate softcap and 16% under resist cap on energy.  It seems clear that if you could knock 5-10% off your S/L numbers and add the same amount to your energy numbers, you'd drop incoming energy damage to less than 1/5th of its current value in incarnate content, and you would lose effectively no S/L durability.

 

Now, sure, maybe that takes you from "who cares I'm unkillable" to "who cares lol I'm unkillable rofl."  That's the life of a high-end level 50 tank.  But if the thesis is that EA and Invul are pretty similar, then I'd prefer less S/L and more energy compared to an invul tank.

 

I'll also note that Invul is a top-tier Tanker set, so saying that EA is very similar to it is a pretty high bar.

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, aethereal said:

"who cares lol I'm unkillable rofl." 

My invul, Dark, stone, Willpower, Ice, SR and shield are already there.

 

Doesnt matter what you move - I ain't dying.  lol

 

17 minutes ago, aethereal said:

I'll also note that Invul is a top-tier Tanker set, so saying that EA is very similar to it is a pretty high bar.

There isnt much separating Invul Shield Ice SR and Dark when it comes to survivability - stone also but its a different animal with movement penalties.

 

Yeah EA would be in that mix but so what?  Those are already there - EA would just be a different flavor added.

[Infinitum]

On the rare occassions I do fall to something silly like Hamidon and the no heal bs its a week long pick at Infi fest because I fell By my sgmates. Thats how rare it is.

[Black Zot]

28 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

On the rare occassions I do fall to something silly like Hamidon and the no heal bs its a week long pick at Infi fest because I fell By my sgmates. Thats how rare it is.

 

Can't exactly make a drinking game of it, is what you're saying.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Black Zot said:

 

Can't exactly make a drinking game of it, is what you're saying.

Not if You want to get a buzz. lol

[SwitchFade]

Two tanks walk into a bar...

[Haijinx]

6 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Basically what I'm getting at is its a mirage that EA would be any more OP than anything else already there if it were ported to tankers.

 

I dont think it would be the best by any logical reasoning and practical gameplay I have experienced. I have all the tanker armor sets at least one of each and I think EA would fall somewhere like this Stone, Invul, Dark, EA, Shield, (maybe Shield, EA), Ice, Willpower, SR, Rad, Elec, Fire.

 

In terms of a broad scale shear survivability against debuffers/multiple dmg types at once Etc.

On IOs of course EA isn't OP

 

But think of what you can get away with on SO's as long as you are strategic with your Drains  

 

After all you see screenies of  IO'd brutes pumping themselves into the 70% Defense range.  

 

I wonder if that has anything to do with it.  

[Infinitum]

47 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

On IOs of course EA isn't OP

 

But think of what you can get away with on SO's as long as you are strategic with your Drains  

 

After all you see screenies of  IO'd brutes pumping themselves into the 70% Defense range.  

 

I wonder if that has anything to do with it.  

You can do that with invul, Shield and SR also.... Just sayin.

[Haijinx]

4 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You can do that with invul, Shield and SR also.... Just sayin.

but not on SOs