"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[golstat2003]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I wanna reply to this specifically, as this is the exact mindset that I see whenever the topic comes up.

 

1) The assumption that everyone is either "Super Duper my-first MMO casual" or "Balls to the wall EXTREME to the 2nd decimal point of effectiveness".

 

Tons of people *must* be in between, hell a generic IO build surpasses SO builds in sheer value past lvl 30, and if you continue that the lvl 50 or beyond lvl 50 generic IO's allow you to be significantly better than SO (2 lvl 55 IO's is roughly equal to 3 SO's, while just 2 lvl 50 IO's is about 90% as effective as 3 SO's, etc), If we wanna just compare values on the somewhat standard "3dam / 1 acc / 1 rech / 1 end" :

 

SO's = 95% Dam / 33% other // IO's = 99% Dam / 42% Other at lvl 50. 

 

The bump in Dam is negligible, but that is a decent bump in the other stats that can let you easily turn the difficulty up a notch.

 

Even if you take an SO build and with many of the sets that have -Def, Achilles Heel changes your offense considerably. As does slotting Numina/Perf Shifter/Etc into Health and Stamina that everyone gets. Or the variety of Pool Powers that allow Defense Sets for LotG or Uniques. How much "power" is there beyond the norm when you're essentially just running generic + a handful of special IO's? You're not Uberbuild9001, but you must certainly be better than the "norm" and many, many people must fall into there....

 

 

2) On that note, my OP was more talking to the point of "are enough people using IO's to where it has become more normal than SO's?" That doesn't mean "balance vs the uber builds", moreso "oh, 70% of people have beyond vanilla recovery and recharge.... interesting"

The answer to that is no. The game should be continued to be balanced around SOs. Full stop.

 

If and when FULLY CRAFTED Common IOs and setIOs start dropping from casually defeating Minions, LTs, Bosses, EBs and AVs THEN and only THEN should they start to think about balancing around IOs.

 

The Inventions system (I consider the AH and the crafting of all IOs a part of that) was always said to be optional. Starting to balance around IOs breaks that idea.

 

Some may say it's past time that the Inventions System stop being optional. I would vehemently DISAGREE. I'd bet many more than in the forums echo chamber would also say so if they were asked.

Edited January 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[Hyperstrike]

1 minute ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I think you and I had a miscommunication somewhere, @Hyperstrike.

I am not in favour of getting slaughtered either.  Jack's vision was that 4 minions should be enough to defeat a player-character.

And with careful play, one can beat this.
The primary issue is the whole slippery slope thing.
Once we start making things tougher, where EXACTLY do we stop?
I mean, this isn't just a "Let the +Level go to 11".
This would require a complete rework of EVERY critter of every rank of EVERY ENEMY.
For what?
So CaptainTwinkedoutMcGrindsitall can feel challenged on a toon he's played for 5 years and pushed north of the Immortality Line in the game?

[Galaxy Brain]

3 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

The answer to that is no. The game should be continued to be balanced around SOs. Full stop.

 

If and when Common IOs and setIOs start dropping from casually defeating Minions, LTs, Bosses, EBs and AVs THEN and only THEN should they start to think about balancing around IOs.

....they do, in the form of recipes. On top of that, you can just get them on the fly casually with /ah.

 

Hell, just playing a character that is above lvl 40 gets you tons of inf through just general missions + selling what drops to a vendor. You can easily get IOs straight up or at least components to craft super easily. 

 

I'm genuinely curious tho how many people actually use *Pure SO's* as opposed to SO/Generic + some odds and ends.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

@ the notion of we're supposed to "Feel Super" :

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[golstat2003]

1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

....they do, in the form of recipes. On top of that, you can just get them on the fly casually with /ah.

 

Hell, just playing a character that is above lvl 40 gets you tons of inf through just general missions + selling what drops to a vendor. You can easily get IOs straight up or at least components to craft super easily. 

 

I'm genuinely curious tho how many people actually use *Pure SO's* as opposed to SO/Generic + some odds and ends

See the rest of my reply. I edited while you were typing. Sorry.

 

The Inventions system (I consider crafting to be a part of that, just like the AH is) was said to be optional. I don't think that should change.

 

EDIT: Also I have some characters that use pure SOs, some a mix and, some frankenslotted with SOs, Common IOs and Set IOS,  some full on SET IO builds

Edited January 22, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

This discussion also leaves out if HC has the manpower to do the balance pass that would be necessary to re-balance everything around various types of IO builds. They don't.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

Edit:

 

@ the notion of we're supposed to "Feel Super" :

 

 

 

To me feeling super isn't just about me alone feeling super. I actually LIKE that more teams can blow through mobs of trash in missions, with the AVs being the main "show". That feels closer to team comics to me than what Jack's vision was. Just saying.

[Hyperstrike]

11 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

And was absolute idiocy as a game vision.

 

Especially for anyone who actually read a comic book. . . 

Yes.  Because a brand new hero should simply do a Doctor Manhattan, and blow hundreds of enemies into paste at once.

[Shenanigunner]

16 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Tons of people *must* be in between, hell a generic IO build surpasses SO builds in sheer value past lvl 30, and if you continue that the lvl 50 or beyond lvl 50 generic IO's allow you to be significantly better than SO (2 lvl 55 IO's is roughly equal to 3 SO's, while just 2 lvl 50 IO's is about 90% as effective as 3 SO's, etc), If we wanna just compare values on the somewhat standard "3dam / 1 acc / 1 rech / 1 end" :

 

I've played since launch and only slotted the odd IO I found on the sidewalk. And the spread of material I've contributed to the community should indicate I am not a casual, kill-some-time player.

 

 

Quote

2) On that note, my OP was more talking to the point of "are enough people using IO's to where it has become more normal than SO's?" That doesn't mean "balance vs the uber builds", moreso "oh, 70% of people have beyond vanilla recovery and recharge.... interesting"

 

Absolutely NOTHING stands in the way of this power-gaming style. The HC devs have brought down the bars on faster leveling and faster power building — bordering on too much so, IMVHO.

 

So why can't the power-gamer, min-max builders just accept that they are welcome, even admired, and allowed (in all ways) to play this style... and quit trying to drag the game to that model, with only "poor people no one cares about" left out of the gameplay and "balance"?

 

I didn't make the suggestion for a separate shard for these folks lightly, but MAN was it unpopular. At least among power gamers. I can't for the life of me figure out why... is it only fun to play this style if you have all the other players as an audience?

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Shenanigunner

[Hyperstrike]

7 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

....they do, in the form of recipes. On top of that, you can just get them on the fly casually with /ah.

 

Hell, just playing a character that is above lvl 40 gets you tons of inf through just general missions + selling what drops to a vendor. You can easily get IOs straight up or at least components to craft super easily. 

 

I'm genuinely curious tho how many people actually use *Pure SO's* as opposed to SO/Generic + some odds and ends.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

@ the notion of we're supposed to "Feel Super" :

 

 

 

Most of my builds, I go in not exactly knowing how I'm going to build.
So I basically SO until I have the spare Inf to Generic IO. with a couple special pieces that make play easier (usually the Endurance uniques in Health and Perf Shifter in Stamina).

I generally only go nuts once i've reached 50, or I've run into a problem in the 35+ range due to build mistakes requiring a Respec.

[golstat2003]

3 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Yes.  Because a brand new hero should simply do a Doctor Manhattan, and blow hundreds of enemies into paste at once.

Except when you start getting into build discussion that's not a brand new hero . . .

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

 

I've played since launch and only slotted the odd IO I found on the sidewalk. And the spread of material I've contributed to the community should indicate I am not a casual, kill-some-time player.

 

 

 

Absolutely NOTHING stands in the way of this power-gaming style. The HC devs have brought down the bars on faster leveling and faster power building — bordering on too much so, IMVHO.

 

So why can't the power-gamer, min-max builders just accept that they are welcome, even admired, and allowed (in all ways) to play this style... and quit trying to drag the game to that model, with only "poor people no one cares about" left out of the gameplay and "balance"?

 

I didn't make the suggestion for a separate shard for these folks lightly, but MAN was it unpopular. At least among power gamers.

 

It was unpopular because it was completely unrealistic with the amount of (VOLUNTEER) manpower HC devs have.

[Xeres]

To answer the question in the subject - no.  You cannot assume that pre-50 chars have IOs.  Post 50 content can be, and maybe some should - around IO set potential, and around incarnate potential.  We may have that now, but I think the post 50 needs a little tweaking.

[UltraAlt]

23 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

As long as teaming up with someone set-IOed-out doesn't semi-permanently taint you as Quant bait!

There coming for you, Doc!

You know you stick of IO sets.

You're just worried that you stink of them more than my characters 😉

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 hours ago, Snarky said:

The game IS balanced around I/Os.  Have you not encountered a team running +4/x8?  Or have you ever tried a Incarnate Trial with toons that are SOd?  

If this were true, then why is soloing at that level ridiculously easy for some archetypes and painful to impossible for others?

[UltraAlt]

31 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Sure, if it's optional based on difficulty settings you the player set. And if folks who join your team are told ahead of time that you set this.

So not at all like a Quantum because you have a squid on your team.

[Erratic1]

21 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Yes.  Because a brand new hero should simply do a Doctor Manhattan, and blow hundreds of enemies into paste at once.

I am pretty sure that was neither stated nor implied.

 

Even street level comic book heroes tend not to have any problems with four minions (non-name thugs).

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Erratic1

[Hyperstrike]

Just now, Erratic1 said:

I am pretty sure that was neither stated nor implied.

 

Even street level comic book heroes tend not to have any problems with four minions (non-name thugs).

No.  It wasn't.
I just needed to get it out there and it was the perfect opening for it.

And I said "brand new" hero.  Not "street level".
There's a difference.

[Erratic1]

3 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

And I said "brand new" hero.  Not "street level".
There's a difference.

You start off dealing with Hellions. I am pretty sure they are street level.

[Doomrider]

36 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I wanna reply to this specifically, as this is the exact mindset that I see whenever the topic comes up.

 

1) The assumption that everyone is either "Super Duper my-first MMO casual" or "Balls to the wall EXTREME to the 2nd decimal point of effectiveness".

 

Tons of people *must* be in between, hell a generic IO build surpasses SO builds in sheer value past lvl 30, and if you continue that the lvl 50 or beyond lvl 50 generic IO's allow you to be significantly better than SO (2 lvl 55 IO's is roughly equal to 3 SO's, while just 2 lvl 50 IO's is about 90% as effective as 3 SO's, etc), If we wanna just compare values on the somewhat standard "3dam / 1 acc / 1 rech / 1 end" :

 

This seems to be the same back and forth that this topic always receives, and it's unfortunate. This being just a discussion of ideas, not a development manifesto, you'd think more people would be able to entertain the hypothetical without the need to act like their opinion or feedback has to be a whole hearted acceptance or rejection of an idea. 

I believe you are correct though, the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle when it comes to frequency of IO usage among players. It's a really hard thing to measure though, kudos for your efforts GB.

 

It's too bad that feedback posted on the HC forums is no where near representative of the whole playerbase. Same for Discord. Just 2 different slices of the same pie, but a handful of vocal players in either example. If in game polling was something that could be utilized, that might be a better way at measuring this.
 

[Shenanigunner]

25 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

It was unpopular because it was completely unrealistic with the amount of (VOLUNTEER) manpower HC devs have.

 

Devote one (1) shard to one (1) option that bypasses leveling to end-game content.

 

At the risk of speaking for the devs or seeming to dismiss their efforts, I think "completely unrealistic" is a bit much. Especially against the effort needed to "rebalance the game for the min-max players who are the only ones who seem to count any more anyway."

[Erratic1]

15 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

At the risk of speaking for the devs or seeming to dismiss their efforts, I think "completely unrealistic" is a bit much. Especially against the effort needed to "rebalance the game for the min-max players who are the only ones who seem to count any more anyway."

 

Quibble: Mainly because its a pet peeve of mine (despite knowing how terms evolve beyond their original or intended meaning) if you do not slot more than three of the same SO you're a min-max player. If you slot your damaging powers with 1 Accuracy and 3 Dmage SOs, you're a min-max player. If you choose a power because it is effective while skipping another for not being useful, you're a min-max player. Min-max only means you are seeking minimize costs while maximizing benefits. 

 

"Power gamer" is probably the term that fits what you are describing.

[Infinitum]

30 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

 

Devote one (1) shard to one (1) option that bypasses leveling to end-game content.

 

At the risk of speaking for the devs or seeming to dismiss their efforts, I think "completely unrealistic" is a bit much. Especially against the effort needed to "rebalance the game for the min-max players who are the only ones who seem to count any more anyway."

How bout no.

[golstat2003]

32 minutes ago, Shenanigunner said:

 

Devote one (1) shard to one (1) option that bypasses leveling to end-game content.

 

At the risk of speaking for the devs or seeming to dismiss their efforts, I think "completely unrealistic" is a bit much. Especially against the effort needed to "rebalance the game for the min-max players who are the only ones who seem to count any more anyway."

You're asking them to devote resources to potentially two different code bases. That seems unrealistic with the VOLUNTEER team we currently.

 

Also completely unnecessary.

[Yomo Kimyata]

43 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

You start off dealing with Hellions. I am pretty sure they are street level.

Someone I know begs to differ...  

 

[Shenanigunner]

8 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

You're asking them to devote resources to potentially two different code bases. That seems unrealistic with the VOLUNTEER team we currently.

 

Also completely unnecessary.

 

Unnecessary to the gamers who just want the game bent their way. I completely get that.

 

And I have made it clear that it could use exactly the same code base, exactly the same implementation, update after update, just as five shards already do, despite some player differences among them... with one additional switch enabled that already exists on beta/test. No other difference unless the mass pleas of the gamers there want further anti-nerfs.

 

I haven't heard one single cogent argument against the idea itself, except misunderstandings about this and that I somehow advocate "banning" some subset of users. I've said and mean nothing of the kind... but if all the crazed powergamers migrate there, we're all better off, including them.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Shenanigunner