"The Game is not Balanced around IO's"..... should it be?

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

1. The only way any of those - Invul Shield or SR are unkillable is through extensive IO set bonuses and slotting - otherwise each of them have holes through regular slotting.

Agreed.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Its really got nothing to do with powersets.

Strongly disagree. There are powersets within archetypes that are vastly superior to their counterparts as has been shown repeatably in a vast number of threads on these and the old forums.

To me, roleplaying should be about flavor and not numerical superiority.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Tanker damage - I dont think its out of line with any other Melee AT

Tanks shouldn't dish out more damage than brutes. Full stop. Currently, for AoE they absolutely do and do it with single target damage being way too damn close considering the mitigation they provide.

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Yes, exceptions exist and they always will but in the big picture there also exists groups that are definitely more difficult than others across multiple builds.

I don't disagree that anything we do which is more difficult than we expect or prefer should be more rewarding, but I do disagree that arbitrary reward increases for certain groups is the solution.  That's not going to make those groups more attractive to fight, it's going to make power sets which render those groups "easy mode" more attractive.  It's an invitation to homogenize far more than letting people farm their Council missions with their soft-capped L/S Defense characters, because at least they're soft-capping a variety of builds, rather than sticking to a select few.

 

The big picture is always at the forefront of my mind when I'm playing or posting.  But so is human nature.  Making any specific enemy group more rewarding than others is inviting more problems than solutions.  An adaptive reward system is a better way to accomplish the goal.  Let people fight what they want to fight and be rewarded appropriately for the difficulty they truly encounter.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Let people fight what they want to fight and be rewarded appropriately for the difficulty they truly encounter.

I'm confused. Isn't that precisely what changing the inf/xp rate of certain factions would accomplish? Or is that too mundane? How does the game configure rewards when the difficulty is based on such a vast number of variables as vet lvl, IO slotting, potential buffs/debuffs, etc? ... dude, that AI would scare me.

[BelleSorciere]

Having read this entire thread I have to say that hard capping defense at 40-45% depending upon AT strikes me as an extremely bad idea that will effectively shred the effectiveness of defense-based sets whether defense or support. The argument that 45% is also the "soft cap" doesn't really fly, as defense debuffs are everywhere.

 

This won't solve any problems but it'll definitely make super reflexes and force field even less popular. 

 

As far as people never hitting the caps on blasters, 

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Inspirations

[Apparition]

I think the solution to this thread is to temporarily replace every enemy group in the game with either The Awakened or Animus Arcana for a week.  Then see if the game is still too easy and that PCs need to be nerfed.

[Coyotedancer]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

I think the solution to this thread is to temporarily replace every enemy group in the game with either The Awakened or Animus Arcana for a week.  Then see if the game is still too easy and that PCs need to be nerfed.

Toss in some Rularuu, too, just for fun... Eyeballs are like honey badgers, They just don't care what your Defense is. 

[SwitchFade]

*ahem*

 

Unequivocally, NO vote on lowering defense soft or hard cap.

 

Nerf Regen.

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Because, even when you craft a build designed to fight Carnies or Malta better than anyone else, they're still going to be more difficult to fight and have no tangible reward increase to justify such a narrow focus when you can mow down Council or Sky Raiders worth the same per kill in less than half the time.

 

That's the part I disagree with.  Running with the Carnies example, if you bump up the rewards for that group, you're not, in fact, bumping up the rewards for Carnies, you're bumping up the rewards for power sets with status protection, for power sets with high positional Defense, for sets with large ToHit debuffs, and leaving all of the other people playing other sets twisting in the wind.  You're encouraging players to avoid anything that doesn't help with Carnies, and only to fight Carnies because they'd be the most rewarding group.  Yeah, you're getting people out of the Council maps and fire farms, but only so they can go farm Carnies.  Nothing positive has been accomplished by the increase to Carnie rewards, but you will have damaged the diversity currently existing in the game (at least the people farming Council can do so with a lot of different characters, since L/S Defense is comparatively easy to acquire).

 

No one group should be more rewarding than any other in and of itself, because the wide variety available in character creation leaves too many out in the cold.  That, in turn, discourages diversity by encouraging players to avoid the sets, and even archetypes, which can't deal with the more rewarding groups as well as other sets or archetypes.  Rewards can be increased, I do agree with that, but not arbitrarily or globally.  The increases should be individual, tailored to every character, adaptive, as I outlined in the post which sparked this side discussion.  A simple reward increase for any given enemy group, though, is just a change to the farm du jour.

[BelleSorciere]

2 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Toss in some Rularuu, too, just for fun... Eyeballs are like honey badgers, They just don't care what your Defense is. 

I just mentioned to @Apparition how -20 Rularuu killed my scrapper during the random zone invasions when the Shadow Shard was added to the game.

[Brutal Justice]

23 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Shield isnt just defense though. You can say that 100 times it doesn't make it true.

 

Precision matters especially when you are explaining to potentially new people how certain sets work.

 

Shield isnt a defensive set - its a hybrid set with a team defense boost, damage per enemy boost, with no heal.

Agreed.  I think I said multiple times that defense and sr are not just defense sets.  

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

The only sets that arent hybrid are sets like Rad, Fire, Dark, Elec.  Etc. But they have other tools that aid in survival against other mechanics and usually have damage auras and other kill speed increasers also.

Calling these not hybrids is a bit of the same statement in layman’s terms.  They are indeed hybrids just not specifically def/res hybrids.  Can we just agree to move on from such detailed descriptions of every set mentioned for the sake of sanity?

 

31 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

That just brought up a good point if you hard cap defense powers like grant cover etc will be largely useless then.

This is more or less the argument with bubbles.  It IS super helpful right up until everybody soft caps themselves.  Then it’s moot.  This is the current state of the game and wouldn’t change much with a defensive hardcap.  

 

36 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Thats one of the many reasons your idea and premise is flawed - because its more than a nerf - its a complete game rebuild and restructure for a net result the majority doesn't even want

I’ll test it later to confirm if nobody beats me to it.  But if a purple will compensate for a -def debuff then  it’s possible things like bubbles and grant cover would still be effective and actually more valuable as power picks because people are getting hit with more debuffs do to lower defense.  

 

Currently a soft capped toon doesnt get hit with that many def debuffs in comparison to a toon at 40 defense.  And since your +def doesn’t add effectual mitigation for them, they only get the benefit 5% of the time when that one hit is a def debuff.

 

if they are getting hit 10% of the time by that debuff because they have lower defense, then they are getting double the amount of support they were getting from your grant cover.  Making grant cover a more valuable pick.  

 

A defensive hard cap may prevent grant cover from soft capping a teammate, but in the current meta it’s already not doing that because they got there themselves.  

 

I suppose I really need to test some -res and popping an orange to see how an actual hard cap would react as opposed to a soft cap.  

 

How about neither of us assume we are the majority.  Instead possibly the most vocal of our respective camps?   The true majority is probably silent.  

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

That which is dead can't hurt you.

 

Dead monkey farts hurt.

[Neiska]

Out of curiosity, what effect would this have on say, shenanigans like 2 players on a team taking turns popping a t4 barrier? We would be right back to square one, no? "Teams too powerful"?

[golstat2003]

7 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

They can certainly form teams for specific tasks, but when broadcasting which pulls more people?

tfs and sfs every single time. Every time recently when I've asked after seeing a comment on LFG, the tf is filled if I wait more than 5 minutes to tell the leader.

 

With itrials filling out over time but always filling.

 

I say again me and some folks are playing a different game.

 

EDiT: And to be fair depending on the time of day pugs may fill up faster. But that is to be expected. I don’t expect most folks to put in the time commitment for a tf if it’s 4 am in the morning. Those folks are gonna do one or two quick council missions and go to bed. LOL

 

Time commitment is also another reason why it’s not a goood idea to compare council missions or PUG missh teams to sfs/tfs

Edited January 27, 2021 by golstat2003

[Infinitum]

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Tanks shouldn't dish out more damage than brutes. Full stop. Currently, for AoE they absolutely do and do it with single target damage being way too damn close considering the mitigation they provide.

AOE yes they do, thats how the update was designed - single target unless you are proc monstering Brutes are a good bit ahead. scrappers and stalkers - tankers aren't in the same league.

[Infinitum]

27 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Currently a soft capped toon doesnt get hit with that many def debuffs in comparison to a toon at 40 defense.  And since your +def doesn’t add effectual mitigation for them, they only get the benefit 5% of the time when that one hit is a def debuff.

Without DDR and not attacking or mitigating my Rad Tank sitting on 48% defense will drop in 30 seconds in an ITF scenario.

 

Doesnt matter if you are at 100% against defense debuffs - they will eat your lunch if you don't have ddr to mitigate it.

 

Basically without ddr its an alpha absorber - not the main layer.

[Infinitum]

31 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

This is more or less the argument with bubbles.  It IS super helpful right up until everybody soft caps themselves.  Then it’s moot.  This is the current state of the game and wouldn’t change much with a defensive hardcap.  

Yes it would and its misguided and misimformed to think or say otherwise.

 

32 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

Calling these not hybrids is a bit of the same statement in layman’s terms.  They are indeed hybrids just not specifically def/res hybrids.  Can we just agree to move on from such detailed descriptions of every set mentioned for the sake of sanity?

Hybrids lessen damage either by not getting hit and also by lessening the hit.

 

Other forms that pure resist sets have such as absorbs and heals etc doesn't make them hybrids because it's just mechanics that don't mitigate the incoming damage directly - it mitigates them by adding to your HP - again thats a mechanic.  They are still pure resist sets because there is no other reliable way to mitigate the incoming damage directly.

 

I said reliable because without ddr any defense you add to a resist set is an alpha absorber then you must move on.

 

Regan is an outlier.... Regen sucks...  Regen will steal your wallet, max out your credit cards and leave you on the streets with an I ❤ skulls t shirt with no passport.

[Infinitum]

39 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

How about neither of us assume we are the majority.  Instead possibly the most vocal of our respective camps?   The true majority is probably silent.  

I may not be the majority but im 100% sure your idea isn't nor will never be the majority - because it won't work, and would destroy the game community were it to be implemented.

[Arbegla]

48 minutes ago, Brutal Justice said:

I’ll test it later to confirm if nobody beats me to it.  But if a purple will compensate for a -def debuff then  it’s possible things like bubbles and grant cover would still be effective and actually more valuable as power picks because people are getting hit with more debuffs do to lower defense.  

 

Currently a soft capped toon doesnt get hit with that many def debuffs in comparison to a toon at 40 defense.  And since your +def doesn’t add effectual mitigation for them, they only get the benefit 5% of the time when that one hit is a def debuff.

 

if they are getting hit 10% of the time by that debuff because they have lower defense, then they are getting double the amount of support they were getting from your grant cover.  Making grant cover a more valuable pick. 

Inspirations will 'counteract' the defense debuff, but you still have a 5% of getting hit. Same with resistance, the orange pills will help, but they aren't permanent, and you still have a 5% chance of being it. And inspirations don't provide DDR, so the next time you're hit, you're back where you started again with the cascading failure. I can't tell you the number of times I've had my Mastermind, who runs softcapped to basically all positions, experience cascading failure when fighting https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Awakened_Division

 

I think you're missing the point on the difference between getting hit 5% of the time, and 10% of the time. Its not as simple as 'Oh, its only 5% more' Its literally twice (i/e, 100% more) as often as you were being hit before.

 

If you want to just decrease defense by an effective 5%, you would need to have the cap go from 45% to 44.75%. That would be an effective 5% reduction in defensive protection. Which is what happens when a SR is hit with a defense debuff, they resist the bulk of it, and go from 45% to 44.75% (or something like it) and while they are hit 5% more of the time, its the different between 5% and 5.25%. Its not simple math tinkering with the defense softcap, it has cascading effects that you're not really understanding or taking into consideration.

 

And it really doesn't solve the problem you think it would solve. How many characters, out of all of the people who play, run softcapped builds? Especially on squishies like Blasters, and Dominators? Controllers, Defenders, Corruptors, Masterminds all have a buff/debuff set that can get them some level of mitigation, but Blasters and Dominators really don't have anything right out of the box to help them out and get them to the durability you seem to think is very common.

 

Building for softcap defense takes away from other things in the build, and as much as you want to say "Well, you can just kill them before they kill you" it doesn't work in practice very well. Especially in large NPC groups. And if you're softcapped running 0/1 missions, you have wasted a lot of inf for nothing.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Arbegla

[BelleSorciere]

25 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

AOE yes they do, thats how the update was designed - single target unless you are proc monstering Brutes are a good bit ahead. scrappers and stalkers - tankers aren't in the same league.

Curious.

 

What kinds of fights are more frequent do you think?

[Infinitum]

5 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

Curious.

 

What kinds of fights are more frequent do you think?

Define fights for me, like AV vs Radio vs Mission Arc content?

[Arbegla]

11 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

Curious.

 

What kinds of fights are more frequent do you think?

I mean, this is a comic book game right? AoE until you get to the Big Bad, then its single target until someone dies.

Unless he calls in help, then you need to balance.

[Infinitum]

14 minutes ago, BelleSorciere said:

Curious.

 

What kinds of fights are more frequent do you think?

Nvm I brainfarted you mean AOE vs single target?

 

My group is a mixed bag, we do lots of the hardest content - with lots of teammate variety - some of us are setted out some of us still have SOs.

 

With bosses in every group - sometimes EBs with the content we play I would say its a 50 50 mix with us.

 

Only 3 of my tankers can solo an AV - meaning take them out - and even then it won't set any speed records.

 

On the counter point to that theres only 3 things in the game that can take my tankers out - Hamidon, tyrant / battle maiden unique crap, and ME.   lol

[Luminara]

34 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I'm confused. Isn't that precisely what changing the inf/xp rate of certain factions would accomplish? Or is that too mundane?

 

Too mundane.

 

As I mentioned previously, Legionette stomps Carnies day in and day out.  Nothing slows her down when she's fighting them.  Does she deserve more XP/inf* for beating on Carnies?  No, because she's not being challenged.

 

Parthenia, on the other hand, is a different story.  She doesn't have the piles of extra hit points, the massive amount of +Regeneration, the status protection (the new and improved EMP Arrow helps with that, when it's available), that Legionette sports.  She has to work for her XP/inf*/drops, and Carnies are more work.  One mezzer too many, or one Strongman not Immobilized (they resist Slows, so we have to open with the first attack, instead of debuffs, which is riskier), or a group a little too spread out (cones have arc limits), or a Master Illusionist phasing or summoning at the wrong moment... it can all go sideways in a hurry.  She is challenged by Carnies, and she does deserve better rewards.

 

Legionette would be excessively rewarded by a broad, general increase to the rewards for defeating Carnies.  Parthenia might not be rewarded enough for the amount of extra work it takes.

 

A simple reward structure may be superficially appealing, but it's ultimately unfair and far too easy to exploit.

 

55 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

How does the game configure rewards when the difficulty is based on such a vast number of variables as vet lvl, IO slotting, potential buffs/debuffs, etc? ... dude, that AI would scare me.

 

It wouldn't have to be terribly complex.  Half a dozen to a dozen flags to account for the important variables should be sufficient.  The biggest factors would be mitigation flags, which would calculate an average of the character's total damage mitigation potential at the beginning of combat (active or available buffs (including heals), available debuffs (note that "available" would indicate fully recharged and ready to go), max HP, status protection, etc.), and damage flags (primary damage type, number of damage procs slotted, single-target or AoE, currently recharged or not, etc.).  A few flags to indicate the enemy spawn's special attributes, like specific damage Resistances, heavy use of mez, summons (things like Warwolf spawns in place of almost defeated foes would count as summons (because they are, technically)) would be necessary.  But I'm not suggesting a redesign of the Co* engine with a learning algorithm to tailor the rewards as the player goes, or to let SHODAN out of the bottle.  Just flags and comparisons that wouldn't even slow the servers down a jot.  It could even be as simple as counting the number of flags of certain variables and adding/subtracting enemy spawn flags to create a reward modifier.

 

With such a system, Legionette could go poke Carnies with her big stick and accumulate the typical rewards, never missing out on anything.  Parthenia, since she'd be struggling more, would reap larger gains for her successes, commensurate with the reality of having to do more to accomplish the same result.  The two characters would, over time, achieve the same general totals - Legionette through speed and safety, Parthenia through increased rewards for the increased difficulty she faces.

 

Won't ever happen, though.  It would be nice if it did, but it's just a thought exercise.

[BelleSorciere]

14 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Nvm I brainfarted you mean AOE vs single target?

 

My group is a mixed bag, we do lots of the hardest content - with lots of teammate variety - some of us are setted out some of us still have SOs.

 

With bosses in every group - sometimes EBs with the content we play I would say its a 50 50 mix with us.

 

Only 3 of my tankers can solo an AV - meaning take them out - and even then it won't set any speed records.

 

On the counter point to that theres only 3 things in the game that can take my tankers out - Hamidon, tyrant / battle maiden unique crap, and ME.   lol

Yeah, that.

 

It just seems to me that tanker damage benefits most in the most frequent situations. An argument could be made that on teams it doesn't make a big difference, and I'd agree, but when doing solo content it seems tankers have the advantage.

 

I don't mind all that much - I have two level 50 tankers which is twice as many as level 50 brutes - but I do think Bill has a point.

[Brutal Justice]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Hybrids lessen damage either by not getting hit and also by lessening the hit.

 

Other forms that pure resist sets have such as absorbs and heals etc doesn't make them hybrids because it's just mechanics that don't mitigate the incoming damage directly - it mitigates them by adding to your HP - again thats a mechanic.  They are still pure resist sets because there is no other reliable way to mitigate the incoming damage directly.

Ok really you’re just making up you own definition of a hybrid and applying it to whatever it is you define as one.  A hybrid is really just a mix two or more things.