How well does knockback/down work at higher levels?

[dekova]

I'm wondering how well the various knockback and knockdown powers work to mitigate incoming damage at higher levels. I'm asking because I imagine that the magnitude of immunity increases as enemy level does.

 

Same question for repel I suppose, does it continue to work at 50?

[Psyonico]

You'll find more enemies with Knockback protection as you get higher in level, but it is still effective.

 

As for repel, I don't know if any enemies other than AVs/GMs resist repel.

[DougGraves]

It depends on what you mean by higher level and if you are assuming IO set bonuses.

 

At incarnate play with IO sets, everyone is assumed to have soft capped defense and decent resistances.  And ridiculous damage.  So the only thing that matters at that point is how much damage you can do. 

[Doomguide2005]

In varies a lot from a number of factors.  It can even be beneficial.  For example, I use Claws Shockwave vs +0 mobs and many still go flying from KB (even at 50)  But make them +4's and the purple patch results in turning it into kd.  Folks pay good money for a proc the purple patch does for me 😁 (in that particular power)

[Drazah Krad]

KB->KD is one of my main sources of migration while farming. The mobs consistently flopping about makes it much easier. I do have multiple stacks of knockdown though. 
 

gravity/storm/ice controller 

[Hew]

kd and kb are amazing even at high levels. just need to practice its use

[Xenosone]

Not very much since the ai has immunity to multiple instances of kb and a player does not.

[Nemu]

 

8 hours ago, dekova said:

I'm wondering how well the various knockback and knockdown powers work to mitigate incoming damage at higher levels. I'm asking because I imagine that the magnitude of immunity increases as enemy level does.

Not really, most standard mobs don't have KB protection, and they don't gain immunity even if they con higher. Higher cons just turn some KB into KD because they decrease the KB magnitude. Anything with a kb magnitude 1 or more does knockback, anything less does knock down, but even if a power does 0.1 mag kb it will still knock down mobs.

 

AoE KB/KD are typically more consistent and dependable means of crowd control compared to holds/stuns and other hard controls because they tend to recharge faster. Not too many standard mobs have KB/KD immunity. Rularuu brutes are the only ones that come to mind, Flyers and arachnos tarantulas recover from KD quickly or at least seems that way. It doesn't work against a lot of AV/GMs but then again neither does hard controls unless you stack enough mags.

 

Not all powers that KB/KD has 100% chance to do so but if you can cycle powers that do, such as force of thunder and thunderstrike, you can chain KD mobs consistently.

[Andreah]

I have a kinetic defender with Repel. I have it slotted for KB->KD, and a resulting 110% chance for knock magnitude -22. It works wonderfully, even at the highest difficulties. You won't bounce AV's or EB's with it, but just about everything else. Bouncing them costs endurance, so some end reduction and yourself slotted for end recovery are important.  It seems to generate a lot of aggro, and if you're stunned, held, slept, etc., it will drop and need to be restarted.

[Heraclea]

On my melees, most of the single target attacks will have a knockdown proc slotted into them.  It seems to be stackable like any other flavor of mez; after you have beaten on Recluse long enough even he will start getting knocked down, which is always amusing.  

[Andreah]

It's interesting. Maybe one of the more technically knowledgeable people will confirm or not, but I think mezz magnitudes of some different kinds stack. E.g., someone hits an immob on a boss/eb/av, and it's not quite enough to affect them. Then, another person puts a KD on them, that ordinarily wouldn't affect them either, but then it seems to do so.

[Doomguide2005]

To my knowledge (which is difficult to keep current with only a phone for internet) different sources of most mez stack.   Holds stack with holds, stuns with stuns.  Afaik different types of mez have no interaction with each other i.e.holds don't stack with stuns which don't stack with Fear etc..   Commonly even the same source from a caster will stack with each application.  And as far as I recall what happens is each occurrence wears off based on its duration so the key is to exceed the necessary protection (usually while the PToD are up it's 50 + whatever they otherwise have in the case of AVs) within the time span of the powers individual durations.  The individual durations are effected by the powers enhancement, buffs, debuffs etc., and the purple patch.  Knock effects don't have duration so magnitude is effected by those things.  You might occasionally get knocked around by an attack that normally doesn't have an effect on you if two separate attacks hit on the same server tic.  Resistance to the effect also plays a part.  Which is why a Dark Armor user vs Super Reflexes user might occasional get bounced by knock.  SR and many Armor sets also grant huge resistance to KB which reduces it enough for their protection to neuter where DA has none (as far as I recall).  Also of note neither Immobilize or Sleep are effected by the PToD so most AVs can be immobilized or slept relatively easily as their protection isn't buffed by the PToD.  Some AVs (here's looking at you Rommy) are prone to running all over the place and having an Immobilize power is of immense benefit to make them stay put instead of making like a track star.

 

As for @Heraclea's observation I'm honestly not sure how the proc creates its effect and how that might effect the ability to stack the necessary mag to overcome Recluses protection(s) and resistance. Is it, for example, creating a pseudo pet which places a debuff on him for 'x' seconds (similar to what the resistance debuff procs do).

Edited March 9, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Clarity

[Cidri]

Devouring Earth Devoureds are also immune to knockback.

 

Nemesis bosses, on the other hand, are not and take quite some time to get up. 🙂

[Andreah]

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

DA has none (as far as I recall)

I can confirm this. Before I got my KB protection IO's, my DA tanker got bounced around constantly.

[Doomguide2005]

34 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I can confirm this. Before I got my KB protection IO's, my DA tanker got bounced around constantly.

True no native KB protection.  I was referring to resistance in this case however.  If SR gets hit by KB it meets not only the protection offered by Practiced Brawler but 10,000% kb resistance.   DA even after slotting for protection via IOs has no resistance and will get the full effect of the remaining kb.

 

That 10,000% basically ensures that any amount of KB that gets past SR's protection will become knockdown.  For DA that means the amount after protection will determine if KB vs KD occurs.  Usually this will result in KB for the DA user.  Basically the DA user (or other sets lacking KB resistance) who particularly care about their positioning (vs simply remaining upright) will want higher amounts of protection than an SR user (or other set with knock resistance).

Edited March 9, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Further clarity

[siolfir]

On 3/8/2021 at 9:40 PM, Nemu said:

Anything with a kb magnitude 1 or more does knockback, anything less does knock down, but even if a power does 0.1 mag kb it will still knock down mobs.

It's actually less than 1 before it becomes knockback, but the rest of what you said was true. I don't know the exact threshold (it's a range on the wiki) but anything past it factors in to the distance of the knockback. It's why you have to chase after lower level mobs (+10% effectiveness) when you hit them with powers that due scale 0.67 mag knockback (.

 

23 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

That 10,000% basically ensures that any amount of KB that gets past SR's protection will become knockdown.

If anything manages to exceed 10 points of KB protection that has 10,000% resistance backing it, then it was flagged as unresistable in the first place and end up whatever magnitude it happened to be in the first place.

[Doomguide2005]

50 minutes ago, siolfir said:

 

If anything manages to exceed 10 points of KB protection that has 10,000% resistance backing it, then it was flagged as unresistable in the first place and end up whatever magnitude it happened to be in the first place.

Not sure I follow you if you could elaborate.  If a lvl 54 Longbow Warden hits my level 50 Claws/SR with Energy Torrent are you saying its unresistable?  His attack is listed as mag 12 and unless I'm misunderstanding things that puts roughly 2 points of mag past my PB protection (discounting the purple patch etc.).  Frankly I haven't fought one since Live so I don't recall if I got KB or KD occurring if/when I got hit.

 

According to the HCwiki the FinalAmount = AppliedAmount - TotalProtection.  And resistance is applied the FinalAmount not the AppliedAmount.

 

To me unless I'm reading or understanding incorrectly that means the resistance is applied to the ~2 mag getting past my protection.  

 

Edit:  Followed your link.  Hmmm, maybe but now I want to find the Longbow Warden entry data.

 

Edit 2:  Thinking that might be because "I'm Statesman" (using Batman voice).  Sneaking suspicion the Warden doesn't have the same flag if I can find it.

Either way the difference is a bit of an edge case.  Mags that high are rare.  Probably only a concern if you are tanking a foe with such attacks on a Dark Armor character.

 

Edit 3:  wish I could recall for certain but fairly sure I've been blasted by a Rikti bomb and I do not recall sailing across the map the way a friends blaster did once.  That's 300 mag.  I do sort of recall being forced backed (sort of stuttering movement) but remaining upright.

 

If some SR volunteer could try that against a Rikti bomb ideally with a DA buddy with IO kb protection of 10+ ... 

Edited March 10, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Afterthoughts

[agentx5]

On 3/9/2021 at 7:57 AM, Andreah said:

I have a kinetic defender with Repel. I have it slotted for KB->KD, and a resulting 110% chance for knock magnitude -22. It works wonderfully, even at the highest difficulties. You won't bounce AV's or EB's with it, but just about everything else. Bouncing them costs endurance, so some end reduction and yourself slotted for end recovery are important.  It seems to generate a lot of aggro, and if you're stunned, held, slept, etc., it will drop and need to be restarted.

And don't forget the Force Feedback chance for +100 recharge too!

[siolfir]

On 3/10/2021 at 5:52 PM, Doomguide2005 said:

Not sure I follow you if you could elaborate.  If a lvl 54 Longbow Warden hits my level 50 Claws/SR with Energy Torrent are you saying its unresistable?  His attack is listed as mag 12 and unless I'm misunderstanding things that puts roughly 2 points of mag past my PB protection (discounting the purple patch etc.).  Frankly I haven't fought one since Live so I don't recall if I got KB or KD occurring if/when I got hit.

 

According to the HCwiki the FinalAmount = AppliedAmount - TotalProtection.  And resistance is applied the FinalAmount not the AppliedAmount.

 

To me unless I'm reading or understanding incorrectly that means the resistance is applied to the ~2 mag getting past my protection.  

The formula you listed is for general status effects - where resistance reduces duration and not magnitude, spelled out in the line above the formula - and while it does mention knockback in terms of reduced magnitude between 0 and 0.75 turning into knockback below the formula, my experience leads me to believe that the resistance to knockback is applied before the protection in the case of knockback, not afterwards. Why do I say that? Because powers such as a Nemesis Staff (mag 9 at even con, mag 12 at +3) would normally cause you to be knocked down with 10 points of protection and resistance - after all, you would have 2 points reduced to between 0 and 0.75 using the general formula as described - but armor sets that have resistance just continue to stand there. You could still be affected by Repel effects pushing you back, though: that's treated differently because it's a different status.

 

As for the Statesman power I used as my first unresistable example? Yeah, it's just "because Statesman" that it's flagged unresistable but it was also a shock to find - pre-nerfed Acrobatics and IOs - that my Corruptor with Acrobatics (mag 100 protection) avoided the knockback better than the Granite Brute on the team who was supposed to tank during a LRSF. There are a few other sources as well, such as the UXBs which are flagged as unresistable: everyone just gets sent back a good ways until they hit something/someone that stops them and there often isn't a knockdown at the end because I think the game doesn't handle KB of that high magnitude well.

 

[Doomguide2005]

Hmmm, I follow you.  Memories are both old and not quite as reliable these days but your mention of Fake Nemesis matches those memories.  Namely getting a bolt to the face and not being knocked at all, just taking the damage from it.  And the game must be reducing it to some tiny number then subtracting 10 (for PB) for a 0.00 or less value as otherwise it would be a small but greater than 0.00 value and result in kd (unless the game is doing some rounding math of some sort)