Mastermind changes in beta

[Coyote]

5 minutes ago, VV said:

Like with Blasters, I cannot stand having to pop two BUs before and during each fight. On most good, fast-moving teams, by the time I pop them, the mob is mostly gone.

 

This is a pretty good simile.

MM henchmen do damage. Upgraded henchmen do MORE damage. If we could get to having henchmen do MORE damage without having had to animate and pay the End cost of the upgrade powers, then isn't it fair for Blasters to claim that once they've trained Aim and/or Build Up, they should also get to do MORE damage without having to bother animating those two powers?

Henchmen upgrade powers ARE our Build Up and Aim, except that instead of +Damage, they add more damage powers. And last until the henchman dies. We're still way ahead.

[TheSpiritFox]

7 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Lol damn the hostility is hot here. Don't ever disagree with @TheSpiritFox . Like does proving that a certain archetype in a game is your life purpose really need to be so emotionally charged and do you even read what you type?

 

Btw whether you're right or the other guy is right about the direction of the game really gets lost when you shove it down their throat. Just because you spend more time playing this archetype than anyone else doesnt mean others who do not play MMs or tend to not like the archetype dont have valid reasons either or might enjoy populating the class if they were different.

 

I've dealt with that dude on more than one occasion. He argues without listening, repeats his points without addressing discussion, and constantly makes flat out false statements which he has zero understanding of game mechanics to back up. He is an active nightmare to deal with and HIM very specifically, I do not want to interact with. He is the pidgeon who knocks the pieces on the chessboard over. 

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, The_Warpact said:

 

This right here is why no one will ever respect or give your reasoning any serious thought or consideration. 

Besides the devs said it wasn't going to happen so put that on your wishlist of shit your never going to get.

Disagreeing with someone should not induce a rage such as yours.

And you telling me what I can or cannot wish for is something that I do not have the words for.  And where will it end?

[kelika2]

31 minutes ago, TheSpiritFox said:

 

I've dealt with that dude on more than one occasion. He argues without listening, repeats his points without addressing discussion, and constantly makes flat out false statements which he has zero understanding of game mechanics to back up. He is an active nightmare to deal with and HIM very specifically, I do not want to interact with. He is the pidgeon who knocks the pieces on the chessboard over. 

You do the same thing but you go down the brow beating route.

And the rest are just blind rage assumptions about me because I do not see things your way.

I can tell how mad you are by how you are avoiding direct lines of low brow personal attacks without actually crossing the line.

[kelika2]

45 minutes ago, VV said:

I cannot stand having to pop two BUs before and during each fight. On most good, fast-moving teams, by the time I pop them, the mob is mostly gone.

This is why I alternate BU and Aim each group.  because it sounds like you only have two actions per fight before its over, why not have the second one being the AoE?  But in the case of a level 45+ group and everyones magically alternating judgements then nah, cant be helped

[The_Warpact]

15 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Disagreeing with someone should not induce a rage such as yours.

And you telling me what I can or cannot wish for is something that I do not have the words for.  And where will it end?

Do you actually read what you type?

You're casually dismissive about responses explaining something to you, you disrespect someone by blatantly ignoring something because it "was too long", and then have the audacity to call people out for being pissed when you're the reason why they did.

 

This poor thread is so off track, my apologies to the @WindDemon21 .

 

 

[Arbegla]

2 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Brutes do since the patch, one alpha strike from a large group gets you damn near 80% fury

In the case of defender that 30% is smaller than you think due to their base damage being low as it is

breakfrees/rune, early level blastering trays are mostly BFs

controller has a harder time getting to caps

some enemies are mechanically rooted

the corruptor thing doesnt really click as an arguement

regen gets nerfed everytime something else gets a buff or a new set comes out, you know this to be true.  Yes the Rooted change on beta is a nerf to regen secondaries.  With Rooted providing Regen, and Stone armor having dull pain, all it needs is to have the s/l auto turned into Rock Polish to mimic Reconstruction.

 

And lightly enough calling me dumb to be slightly outside the grasp of a personal attack is just silly.

 

1) 80% isn't 100%, wanna try again? Also, brutes damage caps were nerfed in the patch you're referencing.

 

2) Defenders have the same damage cap as Dominators, but one is a buff class, and the other is a control/damage class. Why is that?

 

3) Why aren't breakfrees instantly used when Blasters get mezzed? Also, if your early leveling inspiration tray is BFs, you're doing it wrong. the T1 and T2 primary are usable while mezzed, and the T1 secondary is as well. Purples will give you more bang for your buck then break frees will. Reactive vs Proactive mitigation bud.

 

4) Still the same caps, and ALL controllers can get access to Temp Invulnerability, why don't Scrappers get the same level of access to Smash/Lethal resistance that Controllers get? Controllers also don't get containment on Fear or Confuse.

 

5) Scourge is the Corrupter's inherent. They do double damage on their attacks, but it only has a chance to happen when an enemy has 50% or less hit points. You literally proved my point about not knowing enough about the game as a whole to speak freely about changing something inherent to an AT.

 

6) Actually, the last time Regen got looked at severely, it got buffed (Look at new MoG vs old MoG). Also if you want to compare Stone armor to Regen, you really don't have any idea how the two power sets work. I'd personally take MoG over granite armor any day of the week.

 

 

[kelika2]

54 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Do you actually read what you type?

You're casually dismissive about responses explaining something to you, you disrespect someone by blatantly ignoring something because it "was too long", and then have the audacity to call people out for being pissed when you're the reason why they did.

 

This poor thread is so off track, my apologies to the @WindDemon21 .

 

 

Yes I do, you are not.  You are aggressively dismissive about it.  And disagreeing with someone might be disrespect, depending on the reader but like what is going on right now as you are reading this, disagreeing with someone happens in a discussion and going off-er the rails to go on a rant about how a disagreement was handled is not helping anything.

 

I came into this thread voicing my wish list and defending it.

You came into this thread swinging at me.

 

And the last bit on pandering to the OP  did not add anything to the topic, replies or the decency of the thread because it was typed out to antagonize me.

[kelika2]

5 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

1) 80% isn't 100%, wanna try again? Also, brutes damage caps were nerfed in the patch you're referencing.

2) Defenders have the same damage cap as Dominators, but one is a buff class, and the other is a control/damage class. Why is that?

3) Why aren't breakfrees instantly used when Blasters get mezzed? Also, if your early leveling inspiration tray is BFs, you're doing it wrong. the T1 and T2 primary are usable while mezzed, and the T1 secondary is as well. Purples will give you more bang for your buck then break frees will. Reactive vs Proactive mitigation bud.

4) Still the same caps, and ALL controllers can get access to Temp Invulnerability, why don't Scrappers get the same level of access to Smash/Lethal resistance that Controllers get? Controllers also don't get containment on Fear or Confuse.

5) Scourge is the Corrupter's inherent. They do double damage on their attacks, but it only has a chance to happen when an enemy has 50% or less hit points. You literally proved my point about not knowing enough about the game as a whole to speak freely about changing something inherent to an AT.

6) Actually, the last time Regen got looked at severely, it got buffed (Look at new MoG vs old MoG). Also if you want to compare Stone armor to Regen, you really don't have any idea how the two power sets work. I'd personally take MoG over granite armor any day of the week.

1.) Because now that your argument shifted to that 20% window, which fluctuates its barely an issue

2.) You are forgetting one important thing:  Base damage.  Dominators have a slightly higher base damage than defenders which means they will benefit more from damage buffs/enhancements.  At their damage caps, a dominator will still do more damage than a defender because of BASE DAMAGE.  Just because two ATs have the same power set/power name, does not mean they do the same base damage.  Please refer to the character creator info for examples.  Use Ice Blast/Icy Assault for example when/if you do so.

3.) train muscle memory and keep your tray tidy, i instantly tap F4 when mezzed

4.) A controller may get temp invul, but they do not get the other autos and unyielding which also add to other resists, further diminishing your point

5.) Please keep in mind the window of which that 50% health is in most cases.  in the event of minion/lt/bosses, they are dead before you blink.  and in AVs everyone summons lore pets anywho

6.) While my fault, you took a regen post/bullet point seriously.  it was my understanding that any time regeneration is brought up on the forums people instantly go into meme mode.

But with the new instant combat tele thing a few months back id still take granite over regen.

[GM Kaiju]

Stop the jabs and name calling folks.

 

if you can’t constructively add to the conversation and stay on topic, don’t post.

[BGSacho]

So back to feedback on the changes.

I think these changes are really good. One thing that wasn't mentioned is the effect they have on new/undergeared MMs, who will be resummoning way more than the ones with completed builds, and thus not bottoming out their endurance anymore.

MMs face many unique challenges in handling pets, and I think I can enumerate a few for the devs to mull over:

- the uneven effect of purple patch scaling - I think pets should not lose levels, as the interaction between losing levels and purple patch doesn't seem to be an intended effect. To compensate, the baseline effectiveness of pets can be reduced across the board(e.g. by 10%). This would still be a buff to MMs where they struggle the most, e.g. +4/x.
- scaling pets with IOs - I don't think this is just a problem for MMs, I think this is a general problem with the game. IOs just provide too much survivability and turn everything into tanks; I don't think this is worth solving as an individual MM issue.
- MM auras are a burden to most primaries and just a minor slot tax for the "privileged" ones(demons, thugs, necro). I think this can be addressed without too many changes.
- Due to 'auras', MMs are encouraged to always move their pets in one big clump. I don't think this is interesting gameplay.

I think 3) and 4) can be addressed by a single, bold change:

- equip powers no longer give pets their abilities - just allow pets to use all their abilities or introduce them by level. 
- equip powers are now a layered buff, similar to destiny incarnate(barrier, clarion). The "baseline" buff can be the same or different for every primary(for flavor reasons). This gives you the effect devs are aiming for - newly summoned pets will be missing the buffs and be much weaker(but not unevenly crippled by missing some of their powers)
- you can slot the existing auras into equip powers - this won't affect the other pet classes but will equalize the MM primaries a little bit
- (wishful thinking) - sets you can slot into the equip powers would modify the buff, allowing you to choose more offensive/defensive power, to tailor to your secondary. For example, a storm player might want 2 strong defensive buffs for their pets, whereas an FF player would focus on offensive buffs.
- since these buffs will be a unique effect for MMs, they can be tailored accordingly without upsetting the balance of other pet users.

Hopefully, if the buff powers are expanded enough, this would reduce the requirement for every MM to pick up crutches like tactics and maneuvers just to buff pets *somehow*. It would also allow players to move around their pets a bit more loosely, rather than the rigid deathball that you are forced into now.

I know the end goals of my idea are difficult to reach, but I think even the most basic implementation - allowing MMs to slot pet auras into "equip" powers, would be at least beneficial to the weaker primaries.

Edited March 15, 2021 by BGSacho

[Decaying Rose]

2 hours ago, BGSacho said:

So back to feedback on the changes.

I think these changes are really good. One thing that wasn't mentioned is the effect they have on new/undergeared MMs, who will be resummoning way more than the ones with completed builds, and thus not bottoming out their endurance anymore.

MMs face many unique challenges in handling pets, and I think I can enumerate a few for the devs to mull over:

- the uneven effect of purple patch scaling - I think pets should not lose levels, as the interaction between losing levels and purple patch doesn't seem to be an intended effect. To compensate, the baseline effectiveness of pets can be reduced across the board(e.g. by 10%). This would still be a buff to MMs where they struggle the most, e.g. +4/x.
- scaling pets with IOs - I don't think this is just a problem for MMs, I think this is a general problem with the game. IOs just provide too much survivability and turn everything into tanks; I don't think this is worth solving as an individual MM issue.
- MM auras are a burden to most primaries and just a minor slot tax for the "privileged" ones(demons, thugs, necro). I think this can be addressed without too many changes.
- Due to 'auras', MMs are encouraged to always move their pets in one big clump. I don't think this is interesting gameplay.

I think 3) and 4) can be addressed by a single, bold change:

- equip powers no longer give pets their abilities - just allow pets to use all their abilities or introduce them by level. 
- equip powers are now a layered buff, similar to destiny incarnate(barrier, clarion). The "baseline" buff can be the same or different for every primary(for flavor reasons). This gives you the effect devs are aiming for - newly summoned pets will be missing the buffs and be much weaker(but not unevenly crippled by missing some of their powers)
- you can slot the existing auras into equip powers - this won't affect the other pet classes but will equalize the MM primaries a little bit
- (wishful thinking) - sets you can slot into the equip powers would modify the buff, allowing you to choose more offensive/defensive power, to tailor to your secondary. For example, a storm player might want 2 strong defensive buffs for their pets, whereas an FF player would focus on offensive buffs.
- since these buffs will be a unique effect for MMs, they can be tailored accordingly without upsetting the balance of other pet users.

Hopefully, if the buff powers are expanded enough, this would reduce the requirement for every MM to pick up crutches like tactics and maneuvers just to buff pets *somehow*. It would also allow players to move around their pets a bit more loosely, rather than the rigid deathball that you are forced into now.

I know the end goals of my idea are difficult to reach, but I think even the most basic implementation - allowing MMs to slot pet auras into "equip" powers, would be at least beneficial to the weaker primaries.

 

While I'm not sure about the first modifications you've proposed (those look like a lot of work, but for some really cool benefits), I'm all for the last one--being able to slot the aura buff IOs into the equip powers.  That would put a little more slot pressure on the MM's non-primary powers (you'd want to add at least one slot to each equip power, maybe two if you put all six def/res auras in) and free up some room for effects in the pets.

• Mercs could go all-in on damage/debuff procs on the pets.  (Serum's still junk currently, save as a mule)
• Thugs could fully slot Gang War for effect.
• Necromancy could also fully slot Soul Extraction for effect--that thing's got some serious range and pretty good damage.
• Demons could fully slot Hell on Earth for effect.
• Bots get a little more room to slot in defense/heal in the ProBots, and the other bots get some room for other effects.  (Repair's also pretty junky currently.)
• Beasts would get some proc/defense room in the T1/T2 pets.
• Ninjas would definitely benefit, they really need those auras and it's hell to try and cram them in without putting some in Tornado if you're Storm.

 

 

[tidge]

34 minutes ago, Decaying Rose said:

 

While I'm not sure about the first modifications you've proposed (those look like a lot of work, but for some really cool benefits), I'm all for the last one--being able to slot the aura buff IOs into the equip powers.  That would put a little more slot pressure on the MM's non-primary powers (you'd want to add at least one slot to each equip power, maybe two if you put all six def/res auras in) and free up some room for effects in the pets.

• Bots get a little more room to slot in defense/heal in the ProBots, and the other bots get some room for other effects.  (Repair's also pretty junky currently.)

 

If the Robots are ALSO trying to slot for Knockdown, that's another "tax" on the henchmen. Personally, I'm ok with opting to "burn" one slot on each henchmen for KB->KD, but also trying to fit the aura pieces in... well, lets just say that there doesn't end up being a lot of room for that much more actual enhancement of the henchmen.

[TheMoncrief]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

If the Robots are ALSO trying to slot for Knockdown, that's another "tax" on the henchmen. Personally, I'm ok with opting to "burn" one slot on each henchmen for KB->KD, but also trying to fit the aura pieces in... well, lets just say that there doesn't end up being a lot of room for that much more actual enhancement of the henchmen.

In my experience - which is far from comprehensive - once you have the Assault Bot fully upgraded and slotted, the damage and accuracy slotting in your other pets is kind of meaningless. Battle Drones are the lowest level pets and get hit by the purple patch super hard, plus their damage output isn't that amazing even if slotted ideally. Protector Bots are useful for healing and bubbling, even if slotted for damage they aren't big contributors. So you can use Battle Drones and Protector Bots as aura and set mules and not actually lose all that much.

 

I don't *LIKE* that the Assault Bot is the only really combat effective pet in the set, but at least it gives some freedom to slot stuff I want elsewhere without hindering my damage too badly.

[tidge]

57 minutes ago, TheMoncrief said:

I don't *LIKE* that the Assault Bot is the only really combat effective pet in the set, but at least it gives some freedom to slot stuff I want elsewhere without hindering my damage too badly.

 

FWIW: I did use a second build on my Bots/Traps MM as a "Boy and his Big Robot", i.e. a 1-pet only MM. This allowed me to slot the aura pieces elsewhere. The result was... disappointing.

[Coyote]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

Personally, I'm ok with opting to "burn" one slot on each henchmen for KB->KD, but also trying to fit the aura pieces in... well, lets just say that there doesn't end up being a lot of room for that much more actual enhancement of the henchmen.

 

I don't KB2KD on the first two tiers, because each has a single Knockback power with just a 30% chance and about a 12 second cycle time. That's like 1.5 mobs tossed per minute per robot, or 8 overall tosses for the entire squad. In a minute. Not worth caring about, IMO. Now, the AssBot gets the Overwhelming Force, which also adds KD to attacks that don't normally have it like Incendiary Swarm Missiles, so overall I don't feel that Robots are really hurting due to having to slot KB2KD converters.

[Elthenar]

One big bugaboo with the beta patch is that the MM itself now has a flight speed cap of 80 something percent. The pets still have the 56% number. They pets can hit that cap with an enhanced Group Fly at level 50. Making the pets have the same fly speed as the MM would be greatly appreciated.

 

I'd also love to be able to make group fly only affect me and my pets but I am not sure that change is within the scope of this patch. It's something I've been banging the drum for for years.  Even with Null the Gull, if you turn on Group Fly there will always be 1 or more people that get hit with it and get mad.

[TygerDarkstorm]

22 minutes ago, Elthenar said:

One big bugaboo with the beta patch is that the MM itself now has a flight speed cap of 80 something percent. The pets still have the 56% number. They pets can hit that cap with an enhanced Group Fly at level 50. Making the pets have the same fly speed as the MM would be greatly appreciated.

 

I'd also love to be able to make group fly only affect me and my pets but I am not sure that change is within the scope of this patch. It's something I've been banging the drum for for years.  Even with Null the Gull, if you turn on Group Fly there will always be 1 or more people that get hit with it and get mad.

You should put this in one of the focused feedback threads so the devs can see it, since they won't be able to take note of your observation here. 🙂

[Elthenar]

1 minute ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

You should put this in one of the focused feedback threads so the devs can see it, since they won't be able to take note of your observation here. 🙂

 

 

I did and in much more detail

[TygerDarkstorm]

8 minutes ago, Elthenar said:

 

 

I did and in much more detail

Whoops! My apologies!

[RageusQuitus2]

13 hours ago, Coyote said:

isn't it fair for Blasters to claim that once they've trained Aim and/or Build Up, they should also get to do MORE damage without having to bother animating those two powers?

Best idea in this thread so far.  I think we can all agree that mashing buttons is boring.  So how do we move perma build up or aim forward?  Maybe even add perma bu and aim to all archtypes?

[Turric]

On 3/14/2021 at 1:49 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

 

I mean, you're flat out wrong, but hey you're allowed to be if you want, it's not like it's gonna change MMs at this point. 

 

Thank you for telling me my opinion is flat out wrong. That is very gracious of you. I am sure that tactic wins many arguments.

 

From my own standpoint, it is my opinion that masterminds are not broken. They are simply annoying to me. As you stated in another post, yes, their play style does not match my own. I wish that it would. Clearly you wish it to remain the same. However, asserting your own opinion as simple fact does not make it so, as much as you provide evidence for your opinion or state the original intent of the developers. It becomes a moot point but wished to express my opinion, as useless as it seems to be.

 

But consider this (to channel Tommy Boy): if I took a dump and served it to you as a sandwich, then convinced you that is the way sandwiches are supposed to taste. And you, persuaded by my statement, rationalized it so that you enjoyed shit sandwiches. Further, in your ingenuity, you made other dishes that incorporated the shit sandwich and became really good at eating shit sandwiches, which is a testament to your perseverance and skill. But in the end, whether you like it or not, it does not change the fact that it is a shit sandwich. My desire is that we all did not need to eat shit.

[Maxzero]

18 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

I don't want to speak about "engaging" because that's a player preference thing. But for balance, here is the reason:

 

A MM who doesn't take or use attacks does about 66% of their max damage via their pets. Pets take no animation time on the part of the MM in order for them to do their damage. If an MM gets stuck in having to spam heals or debuffs, they are still doing a good portion of their max damage (and even 100% of it, if they didn't take personal attacks).

 

Other ATs who switch to a full-defensive mode using their secondaries generally stop doing damage, or only what they are doing with their secondary. This means that the animation-time pressure on MMs is lower than every other AT in the game... they can switch to spending 0% of their time doing damage, and STILL do most of their damage.

 

Now, a MM loses a henchman here and there, and has to re-summon... the % of their time that they use in summoning and buffing is still lower than every other AT unless somehow they're spending 50% of their time resummoning (basically, a full resummons every 20 seconds or so). So even with time taken to summon and buff, they still have by far the lowest animation pressure from their damage primary.

 

And people still ask to lower this because there is too much time spent on buffing? How don't you realize that it's not reasonable compared to how other ATs have to choose between animating heals or attacks?

 

For me my MMs have two modes:

 

Stationary: Life's great and I feel super powerful.

 

Moving: Oh crap.

 

Automatic upgrades combined with the new reduced summon times would make me much more mobile. I could fight in a location, unsummon, zip off to the next location, quick resummon and I am into the action again.

 

MMs probably have the largest gap between theoretical effectiveness and practical effectivness.

[TheMoncrief]

6 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Best idea in this thread so far.  I think we can all agree that mashing buttons is boring.  So how do we move perma build up or aim forward?  Maybe even add perma bu and aim to all archtypes?

That people treat the comparison as even remotely valid is bizarre. Build Up and Aim are short duration buffs intended to allow a brief burst of higher damage and accuracy. The Mastermind pet upgrades are permanent buffs intended to increase the baseline effectiveness of the pets.

 

I'm not sure it's a good reason to just make the pet upgrades auto powers, but the comparison to Build Up and Aim is spurious and deserves to be called out as such.

[Coyote]

3 hours ago, TheMoncrief said:

the comparison to Build Up and Aim is spurious and deserves to be called out as such

 

Eh. The comparison to BU/Aim was well-reasoned and introduced for good and logical arguments.