Remove Cap on Power Pools

[Bill Z Bubba]

16 minutes ago, Maxzero said:

Add to that many builds take the same pools.

 

Speed for Hasten

Fighting for Tough/Weave

Jumping for CJ

Flying for Hover

 

Sometimes Leadership pops up. Trying to fit in multiple origin pools is a pipe dream.

 

ALL of my characters take Tough/Weave/CJ/Hasten.

Most take fly so that I can use hover/afterburner as LotG mules and fly is my preferred mode of travel.

Those that take leadership either drop CJ or end up finding other places for LotGs and go superjump.

 

Yea, I miss out on a lot of interesting concepts because of this rigidity.

 

Especially when there's plenty of primary/secondary powers I'd be happy to be rid of in the place of more power pool choices.

[Incursion]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

ALL of my characters take Tough/Weave/CJ/Hasten.

Most take fly so that I can use hover/afterburner as LotG mules and fly is my preferred mode of travel.

Those that take leadership either drop CJ or end up finding other places for LotGs and go superjump.

 

Yea, I miss out on a lot of interesting concepts because of this rigidity.

 

Especially when there's plenty of primary/secondary powers I'd be happy to be rid of in the place of more power pool choices.

 

I sometimes go leadership instead of flight, maneuvers, tactics and if I'm on a build in hard need of a LoTG mule, vengeance.  I've been experimenting with force of will and sorcery. I do like them.  I have a few concepts that would take very little out of the primary and really focus on some pool stuff just for something different.  Getting rid of the rigid factor would help greatly for those concepts.  My min/max heavy hitters probably won't deviate much from where they are now, but that's okay! I hate burner powers though. Another neat idea but may get too complicated would be to keep some of the same rules with precursors but open those later powers at a specific level.  For example. for rune of protection, the earliest you can obtain is at level 20 and you have to have 2 powers before it.  What if you decide you only want mystic flight, maybe rune opens up later at level 30 or even as late as 41.  This way it would take a little planning and be less likely to be able to stack more higher tier pools in the same manner because it will conflict with some late picks like patron or ancillary powers.  

 

edits - some lite grammatical changes

Edited March 19, 2021 by Incursion

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Obviously there is a middle ground that doesnt require one small leap to lead to such extremes.  Its silly to suggest because I think something would be fun or good for the game...  Then clearly I want everything else you listed.  Or that because power pools get opened up, then everything else you listed will happen.  In fact its very unlikely any of what you suggest would happen even if this thread were to get implemented.  Chill man.  Its a conversation.  Im not mad you dont like the ideas, dont be mad I do like em.

I never said *you* wanted it.

 

What I did say is "That should take care of everyone's complaints about limits." After all, what would make power pools worthy of such consideration over all the other things listed? "The number of power pool picks are limiting." OK, why is it more limiting than the 5-set-bonus rule? Especially if we had more power pools open up (which I doubt will happen to begin with.) After all, it opens more possibilities up. And hey, it's not like certain people don't think Hasten is taken by "everyone" and "should be inherent." Frees up another pick, right? And so forth.

 

If one's somehow worth doing, what makes the others not worth it for the same reasons?

 

And there's no anger there. I just think it's a bad idea.

[Zeraphia]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

If one's somehow worth doing, what makes the others not worth it for the same reasons?

This is not a "slippery slope" situation where people want all of the other things you mentioned. I certainly do not want all of those things. This is on the forum topic of unlocking the number of power pools, not unlocking all set bonuses to an infinite number. You are not comparing the same topics. The powers are still limited by the number of powers you can take, and arguably it's not going to be that great of a benefit. This is far different than being able to endlessly get Winter-O's/unique Def/Res IO's and make yourself Statesman 2.0.

[Troo]

too soon?

Edited March 19, 2021 by Troo

[Incursion]

Still don’t see any good reason not to open the limit on how many pools. Still costs power selections, deeper you go the more you lose elsewhere. Why even bother adding more pools to the list if it’s got the same limit since launch. God forbid someone use hover with mystic flight. Let’s make believe T4 incarnates don’t exist easy because that’s not gamebreaking in and of itself. 

[RageusQuitus2]

5 hours ago, Zeraphia said:

This is not a "slippery slope" situation where people want all of the other things you mentioned

This

[Incursion]

3 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

This

Exactly, this simple change would only make the argument against other suggestions stronger as it will satisfy other requests by attrition.

[arcane]

On 3/17/2021 at 4:30 PM, SwitchFade said:

As in the other thread, I vote to keep it at 4

This

[Grouchybeast]

In the past I would've probably said leave it, but now that the Origin pools exist, and will hopefully be filled out to the full complement, I think opening it up to five pools would be a good idea.  Unlimited?  Maybe, but we could start with five and see how it goes.

[arcane]

14 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

ALL of my characters take Tough/Weave/CJ/Hasten.

Most take fly so that I can use hover/afterburner as LotG mules and fly is my preferred mode of travel.

Those that take leadership either drop CJ or end up finding other places for LotGs and go superjump.

 

Yea, I miss out on a lot of interesting concepts because of this rigidity.

 

Especially when there's plenty of primary/secondary powers I'd be happy to be rid of in the place of more power pool choices.

This post describes you limiting your own build diversity, not the game doing it. I don’t have a single power that is constant across all of my characters because I value variety and recognize that will require some sacrifices.

[tidge]

I'm perfectly happy with 4 pools plus an Epic/Patron. I'm only slightly peeved by the constraints on VEAT/HEAT, but I can accept them.

 

My guess is that if players could pick without the constraints of specific pools, we would end up with:

• An immediate desire to not be constrained by primary or secondary default choices,
• Accusations of self-gimping because some folks refuse to pick from more than five pools to make their characters MOAR BETTA

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

This post describes you limiting your own build diversity, not the game doing it. I don’t have a single power that is constant across all of my characters because I value variety and recognize that will require some sacrifices.

 

If you valued variety you'd support the request.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

If you valued variety you'd support the request.

No, I wouldn’t. IMO this will decrease build diversity by removing one of the only incentives in the game to consider skipping hasten/CJ/fighting/leadership.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

No, I wouldn’t. IMO this will decrease build diversity by removing one of the only incentives in the game to consider skipping hasten/CJ/fighting/leadership.

 

It will increase build diversity by allowing us to swap out of lesser desired primary/secondary powers for the lesser taken pool powers we'd otherwise be inclined to take such as provoke or aid other.

[Troo]

One Epic or Ancillary per character and then as many of the power pools as people want.

 

Let folks make what they want in that framework and we should be okay.

[arcane]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It will increase build diversity by allowing us to swap out of lesser desired primary/secondary powers for the lesser taken pool powers we'd otherwise be inclined to take such as provoke or aid other.

Sorry man, there’s diversity in some ways and not in others, but I’m not seeing a change that further validates a practice of taking the same five powers on every single alt as a net positive. I’m likely outvoted though so hey no worries.

[Incursion]

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

Sorry man, there’s diversity in some ways and not in others, but I’m not seeing a change that further validates a practice of taking the same five powers on every single alt as a net positive. I’m likely outvoted though so hey no worries.

Let’s hope you are outvoted because that logic makes no sense. Some people feel strongly about certain selections, so what? That doesn’t impact you, so no skin off your back, I don’t see why you guys vote it down, it will allow people to experiment in other ways.  In the old days people would cry that this will only help the PLing and make more noobs. Yeah that argument never held up, now you can have double xp weekend 8 hours at a clip and farm missions with 1 damage type. Really? Extra pool powers is this big game breaker?
 

It’s pure math, you select more pool powers you give either a primary, secondary or epic pick away. It’s an even trade and encourages build diversity. I don’t know why it scares people so much. I always hear, but incursion, that’s “how you play the game”, but all I’m hearing from the no Crowd is we want you to keep playing our way, and be stuck with limited choice as the game adds more stuff to this area.  I don’t think they added these origin like pools so people wouldn’t try them. He look at these shiny powers....don’t even think about it unless you want to lose that hasten or that self heal or that hover. Bad bad bad

Edited March 19, 2021 by Incursion

[Narfu12]

6 minutes ago, Incursion said:

Let’s hope you are outvoted because that logic makes no sense. Some people feel strongly about certain selections, so what? That doesn’t impact you, so no skin off your back, I don’t see why you guys vote it down, it will allow people to experiment in other ways.  In the old days people would cry that this will only help the PLing and make more noobs. Yeah that argument never held up, now you can have double xp weekend 8 hours at a clip and farm missions with 1 damage type. Really? Extra pool powers is this big game breaker?
 

It’s pure math, you select more pool powers you give either a primary, secondary or epic pick away. It’s an even trade and encourages build diversity. I don’t know why it scares people so much. I always hear, but incursion, that’s “how you play the game”, but all I’m hearing from the no Crowd is we want you to keep playing our way, and be stuck with limited choice as the game adds more stuff to this area.  I don’t think they added these original like pools so people wouldn’t try them. He look at these shiny powers....don’t even think about it unless you want to lose that hasten or that self heal or that hover. Bad bad bad

Yeah that logic makes no sense. There are people that farm missions and you can get double xp boosts for free from the P2W Vendor in Atlas. At this point 'WHO CARES?!' There's enough ridiculous builds out there that have adapted with each update that no matter what you're gonna get people with stupidly powerful characters. At this point just try to have fun. If you have fun farming other people to higher levels then alright, If you have fun doing it the old fashioned way alright then. Thats really what it boils down too at this point. Just have fun.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Narfu12

[arcane]

8 minutes ago, Incursion said:

Let’s hope you are outvoted because that logic makes no sense. Some people feel strongly about certain selections, so what? That doesn’t impact you, so no skin off your back, I don’t see why you guys vote it down, it will allow people to experiment in other ways.  In the old days people would cry that this will only help the PLing and make more noobs. Yeah that argument never held up, now you can have double xp weekend 8 hours at a clip and farm missions with 1 damage type. Really? Extra pool powers is this big game breaker?
 

It’s pure math, you select more pool powers you give either a primary, secondary or epic pick away. It’s an even trade and encourages build diversity. I don’t know why it scares people so much. I always hear, but incursion, that’s “how you play the game”, but all I’m hearing from the no Crowd is we want you to keep playing our way, and be stuck with limited choice as the game adds more stuff to this area.  I don’t think they added these origin like pools so people wouldn’t try them. He look at these shiny powers....don’t even think about it unless you want to lose that hasten or that self heal or that hover. Bad bad bad

“It will allow people to experiment” - as long as these same users are referring to certain pools as mandatory, I am not convinced they are trying to experiment at all. The avenue for experimentation is already right there under your nose. You want to try another pool? Easy. Drop one. Done.

 

”Encourages diversity” - validating the concept of mandatory pool choices is antithetical to build diversity.

 

I will also add that I think, in general terms, tearing down a norm that has been with the game since day one should require a high burden of proof from those arguing in favor of change.

Edited March 19, 2021 by arcane

[Narfu12]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

“It will allow people to experiment” - as long as these same users are referring to certain pools as mandatory, I am not convinced they are trying to experiment at all. The avenue for experimentation is already right there under your nose. You want to try another pool? Easy. Drop one. Done.

 

”Encourages diversity” - validating the concept of mandatory pool choices is antithetical to build diversity.

Arcane there are always gonna be those people in MMORPGS like this. There are always gonna be the ones that make the most powerful characters they can and try to get others to follow in their footsteps. That happens its more or less at this point a 'do what YOU want' thing. Don't let other people dictate what you do. I've done Arachnos with Medicine. I have a sentinel that has Hover and I use it occasionally to fuck around. Just drop it at this point. You're on a sinking ship because if we allow those pool powers to be selected its going to end up with a new flood of complaints and history like this is gonna repeat itself over and over and over.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Narfu12

[Incursion]

5 minutes ago, arcane said:

“It will allow people to experiment” - as long as these same users are referring to certain pools as mandatory, I am not convinced they are trying to experiment at all. The avenue for experimentation is already right there under your nose. You want to try another pool? Easy. Drop one. Done.

 

”Encourages diversity” - validating the concept of mandatory pool choices is antithetical to build diversity.

 

I will also add that I think, in general terms, tearing down a norm that has been with the game since day one should require a high burden of proof from those arguing in favor of change.

To any min/max player they will consider some powers requirements for some or all characters, again so what? Because they play a certain way the game can’t add some flexibility to make it more enjoyable?  It’s almost like you don’t agree with a certain play style so any advancement to their benefit you shoot down, even if it gives you more creative choice as well. You talk about norms from the beginning yet we have the following

 

p2win vendor offering double XP, every prestige power, every utility power for mere influence.

 

we have super packs that hand you merits, AE missions that can power level a character to 50 in 3 hours, incarnate abilities which blow most bonuses out of the water and create god mode, yet here we are arguing about having extra pool powers that still come at the cost of powers in your primary and secondary. It’s math plain and simple. It’s not like anyone is proposing adding more powers to the game and opening up pools. I’ve suggested being able to respec out of mandatory primary and secondary powers to dive deeper into these expanded pools, but as usual gets shot down by the I don’t want change the game. The same game that a giant company shuttered because it couldn’t make enough money. Everytime the devs made Huge blunderous decisions more people left.  That’s the legacy that people are staunchly defending. 

[Narfu12]

2 minutes ago, Incursion said:

To any min/max player they will consider some powers requirements for some or all characters, again so what? Because they play a certain way the game can’t add some flexibility to make it more enjoyable?  It’s almost like you don’t agree with a certain play style so any advancement to their benefit you shoot down, even if it gives you more creative choice as well. You talk about norms from the beginning yet we have the following

 

p2win vendor offering double XP, every prestige power, every utility power for mere influence.

 

we have super packs that hand you merits, AE missions that can power level a character to 50 in 3 hours, incarnate abilities which blow most bonuses out of the water and create god mode, yet here we are arguing about having extra pool powers that still come at the cost of powers in your primary and secondary. It’s math plain and simple. It’s not like anyone is proposing adding more powers to the game and opening up pools. I’ve suggested being able to respec out of mandatory primary and secondary powers to dive deeper into these expanded pools, but as usual gets shot down by the I don’t want change the game. The same game that a giant company shuttered because it couldn’t make enough money. Everytime the devs made Huge blunderous decisions more people left.  That’s the legacy that people are staunchly defending. 

Hell I don't even use the P2W vendor for anything aside Sands of Mu, the axe, and the staff for my origin and the free travel powers. I agree here. Yeah I keep suggesting my damn shotgun power thing but thats because I just wanted to try and spice things up a little bit. I'm open for change but if people don't accept change then what chance does homecoming has then follow in the footsteps of the games original creator?

[Grindingsucks]

I would vote yes. 

 

The problem, as I see it, isn't with having all the pools available to pick from.  The problem is a few pool powers that are overpowered.  The logical solution would be to nerf the offending powers, but people have a shit-hemorrhage when you suggest changing haste or the like, so I reckon that's a non-starter.

 

On the other hand, I can live with it being as it's implemented presently, too- so whateves.  🤷‍♂️

[AerialAssault]

Provisionally, I would say no. My personal belief is that it would be a step on the road towards further power creep. People already feel that the game is too easy, to me, the response wouldn't be to make things easier, and I sincerely believe that it would make things easier. Nobody here has been lamenting that they can't fit another pool in when they've picked Presence, Medicine, Concealment and Teleportation. 

 

That being said, I would not be opposed to testing it out. That's what testing is for. If it turns out good then I wouldn't be upset about that. And even if it weren't to go ahead, I imagine there would be valuable lessons learned along the way.