Focused Feedback: Travel Power Updates (FLY POOL) - Build 2

[Glacier Peak]

5 hours ago, QuiJon said:

It reallyl doesnt matter what way  you test it or how little you want to try and say the time difference might matter.

If you read my methodology, you'd realize the test was for extreme/outlier cases. As in, they aren't expected to happen, but if they did, it would be a rarity.

 

And please don't distort my testing results and confuse other testers. I'm happy to provide a more detailed methodology for you if you're interested in replicating. 

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

You, in fact, missed what he is comparing. He is not comparing the before and after speeds of i17p2, but the comparative speeds of Fly to Super Speed from both live, beta and even historical before Afterburner. He noted that the gap was pulled much closer with the addition of the original Afterburner.

No, I didn't miss anything. You just can't read the data for some reason.

 

1 hour ago, arthurh35353 said:

Now, in beta (with both sets being faster) Fly is actually losing some of that ground that it had with the Afterburner.

That's the opposite of what the data shows. It shows that Fly gained ground against Super Speed in a 2 mile distance test. He left Afterburner out to prove the point, and putting it into the equation would just close the smaller gap even further. Remember, we're comparing one power against one power in both versions, not two powers against one power. Fly vs SS is much closer on Beta than it is on Live. Just read the data -- it's right there.

 

If you want to take exception to old Fly "being closer to SS" when you pick up an additional power to get there, but ignore you can do that here too with EvM, that's your prerogative. It's a bad position to take, but it's yours if you want it.

 

This is why no one understands what your complaint is. You take data presented and read it wrong, then tell everyone else we're mistaken.

[arthurh35353]

48 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

No, I didn't miss anything. You just can't read the data for some reason.

He (and I) were talking apples to apples, when you are trying to say apples to oranges. We are both talking about different things or seeing it from a different perspective.

 

We are not saying we aren't going faster, just that the percentage comparison between Fly and SS has gone up between them. The rework with Evasive Maneuvers is not the same power we had chosen before and doesn't exist as we would have chosen it.

[ForeverLaxx]

3 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

We are not saying we aren't going faster, just that the percentage comparison between Fly and SS has gone up between them

I'm only going to say this one last time. If you still can't wrap your head around it, that's no longer my problem.

 

Current Live: Super Speed travels 2 miles, and Fly travels the same 2 miles. Fly arrives at the end point 45 seconds after SS does.

Current Beta: Super Speed travels 2 miles, and Fly travels the same 2 miles. Fly arrives at the end point 22 seconds after SS does.

 

They even managed to keep roughly the same "top speed difference" between these two powers when buffing their speeds, making sure Fly is still the slower one overall, while cutting down the travel time over long distances by a large margin. Why you believe 45 seconds is a smaller number than 22 seconds, I have no idea.

 

I've condensed it down into something I hope you can follow. If you still want to be obtuse about this, be my guest; I won't entertain this further.

[Hew]

11 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Current Live: Super Speed travels 2 miles, and Fly travels the same 2 miles. Fly arrives at the end point 45 seconds after SS does.

Current Beta: Super Speed travels 2 miles, and Fly travels the same 2 miles. Fly arrives at the end point 22 seconds after SS does.

Let me help:

 

Fly is 50% faster in beta.

 

(crazy minmaxers and statisticians will get the not a joke at all real statement here)

Edited March 27, 2021 by Hew

[QuiJon]

21 hours ago, Bopper said:

It's concerning to see people still hung up on a fixed speed delta being equivalent between old and new. I've said it before but I'll repeat it, it's not about the speed delta it's about the speed ratios. Just because Fly at 58.63 mph is ~33 mph slower than Super Speed at 92.5 mph does not mean your experience will be the same now that Fly at 87.95 mph is ~33 mph slower than Super Speed is at 120.24 mph.

Here are the numbers for traveling 2 miles under three conditions. Page 2's Run and Fly speed caps, HC Live's regular Run and Fly speed caps, and a Granite Armor character versus something that can run 33 mph fast than it. In all three conditions, the speed difference is approximately 33 mph, but the difference in time arrival is very different.

 

 

Notice that the time delta between Page 2's and Live's Fly/Run time arrivals is more than cut in half. On live, that 33 mph discrepancy resulted in Fly taking ~58% longer than Super Speed. Now on Page 2, it only takes ~37% longer. So either way you want to look at it, the time differences being cut in half or the time difference percentage being greatly reduced, the increase in speed caps results in better performance going from one place to another.

 

Finally, check out Granite Armor. So sad. It's not shown here, but it also takes a little over a century for it to roll over a curb.

 

Edit: FWIW, I purposely did not include Afterburner being activated. Hopefully folks can figure out the time difference in Page 2 will be even less than what I showed in the calculations.

Ok but you didnt use afterburner, and IMO most fliers currently have it, and obviously still have it when this goes live. On my own testing, unfortunately with AB my flier is only at 85mph but close enough really......So lets compare possibilities from the two systems. 

 

At HC current speeds speedsters go 92.5mph and run 2 miles by your own chart in 78 seconds. At HC flight with AB even only at 85mph i can fly 2 miles in about 83 seconds. So i might hit the same target about 4-5 seconds behind a speedster. 

 

At P2 the speedster is doing 120mph and does the same 2 miles in about 1 minute more or less. A flier can hit 102 mph but only for 30 seconds. This allows the flier to go just under .9 miles in 30 seconds, then he drops to 87mph which takes 45 seconds on my flier to go the final 1.1 miles. So add those up and it is taking me about 75 seconds to go that same 2 mile trip. So this new version of AB over all when plugged into all the new travel changes nets a larger difference in the times it takes to travel longer distances over .9 miles between SS and flight. 

 

So what i am saying and have been is that though speed caps appear faster, flight over all when compared to how it currently stacks up with its possibilities on live, is going to take a hit on how it performs in comparison to AT LEAST  Super Speed, and likely Jumping as well. Which is why i say to make afterburner full time (when toggles) maybe kick jumping up to 108ish mph and maybe take afterburner down to 100 even. It leaves noticable speed boosts to SS and SJ over fly for the "convience" factor, but within game play wont feel like people are always waiting at the door for you to finally get there. 

 

 

[cohRock]

A question about a peacebringer's Combat Flight.  Presumably it will act with Energy Flight the same way Hover acts with Fly.  I.e., we will be able to have both on at same time, and have the control and defense of Combat Flight added to Energy Flight.  Right?

 

My main question deals with the Nova form's fly.  It has always lacked control.  Will Combat Flight be modified so that it can be used along with the Nova form?  This would not be the only such exception to Nova limitations.  I don't know when it happened, but at some point the Gleaming Eye attack was not only kept active during Nova, but enhanced by Nova as well.  So I'm hoping Combat Flight will be added to Nova capabilities as well.  If not now, then maybe at some point in the future.  I hate flying in narrow caves at high speed with limited control.

Edited March 27, 2021 by cohRock

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, QuiJon said:

Ok but you didnt use afterburner, and IMO most fliers currently have it, and obviously still have it when this goes live. On my own testing, unfortunately with AB my flier is only at 85mph but close enough really......So lets compare possibilities from the two systems. 

 

At HC current speeds speedsters go 92.5mph and run 2 miles by your own chart in 78 seconds. At HC flight with AB even only at 85mph i can fly 2 miles in about 83 seconds. So i might hit the same target about 4-5 seconds behind a speedster. 

 

At P2 the speedster is doing 120mph and does the same 2 miles in about 1 minute more or less. A flier can hit 102 mph but only for 30 seconds. This allows the flier to go just under .9 miles in 30 seconds, then he drops to 87mph which takes 45 seconds on my flier to go the final 1.1 miles. So add those up and it is taking me about 75 seconds to go that same 2 mile trip. So this new version of AB over all when plugged into all the new travel changes nets a larger difference in the times it takes to travel longer distances over .9 miles between SS and flight. 

 

So what i am saying and have been is that though speed caps appear faster, flight over all when compared to how it currently stacks up with its possibilities on live, is going to take a hit on how it performs in comparison to AT LEAST  Super Speed, and likely Jumping as well. Which is why i say to make afterburner full time (when toggles) maybe kick jumping up to 108ish mph and maybe take afterburner down to 100 even. It leaves noticable speed boosts to SS and SJ over fly for the "convience" factor, but within game play wont feel like people are always waiting at the door for you to finally get there. 

 

 

You are leaving out the vertical aspect of flight.

 

Its always going to be closer than a straight line test will indicate.

[arthurh35353]

2 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

You are leaving out the vertical aspect of flight.

 

Its always going to be closer than a straight line test will indicate.

Just ignore all those tall buildings in the city?

[Bopper]

4 hours ago, QuiJon said:

At HC current speeds speedsters go 92.5mph and run 2 miles by your own chart in 78 seconds. At HC flight with AB even only at 85mph i can fly 2 miles in about 83 seconds. So i might hit the same target about 4-5 seconds behind a speedster. 

 

At P2 the speedster is doing 120mph and does the same 2 miles in about 1 minute more or less. A flier can hit 102 mph but only for 30 seconds. This allows the flier to go just under .9 miles in 30 seconds, then he drops to 87mph which takes 45 seconds on my flier to go the final 1.1 miles. So add those up and it is taking me about 75 seconds to go that same 2 mile trip. So this new version of AB over all when plugged into all the new travel changes nets a larger difference in the times it takes to travel longer distances over .9 miles between SS and flight. 

Your math seems off, or you're introducing major rounding errors and carrying them through. With a travel speed of 85 mph, you'll go 2 miles in ~85s. You'll need to go 86.75 mph to reach it in 83s. As for afterburner in P2, you'll go 2 miles in 77s (30s to go 0.85mi, 47s to go 1.15mi). In which case, it takes you 17s longer than a capped out Super Speed. Compare that to Live with your 85 mph Fly+AB versus 92.5 mph SS, which would take you 7s longer. SS increasing its arrival separation by another 10s over a 2 mile stretch is hardly a concern (where we're assuming a straight line with SS having absolutely nothing to navigate around and having no extended jump animations that could slow its speed down).

 

Comparing the relative performance between Live's AB+Fly vs. just SS is disingenuous if you're not factoring in the need to use two powers versus one, and the need to take three powers versus one. The only reason anyone could justify AB+Fly being able to reach 95% of what Super Speed can was the fact you had to triple your investment into traveling with flight than you had to with just super speed. That gift of being 95% of SS (if you capped out AB) is no longer warranted now that all of the flight speed capability is packaged into a single power available at level 4. In the end, you are faster than you were on Live with less investment (in both power picks and slotting) and you are going at these faster speeds much earlier in the leveling up process. And if you can't keep up with someone who is using Super Speed (with all the barriers they have to go around), then perhaps you should take the power pick you currently used on AB and replace is with Super Speed instead (now you can run 120 mph or fly 88 mph, nice). Or, you can reach the door a couple seconds later and use that extra power pick on something that might help you elsewhere. 

[Bopper]

2 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

Just ignore all those tall buildings in the city?

I recommend flying at an altitude that is greater than most of the buildings and then fly around the taller ones. It's one thing having to run around every single building versus having to fly around some of the buildings.

[Bopper]

4 hours ago, cohRock said:

A question about a peacebringer's Combat Flight.  Presumably it will act with Energy Flight the same way Hover acts with Fly.  I.e., we will be able to have both on at same time, and have the control and defense of Combat Flight added to Energy Flight.  Right?

 

My main question deals with the Nova form's fly.  It has always lacked control.  Will Combat Flight be modified so that it can be used along with the Nova form?  This would not be the only such exception to Nova limitations.  I don't know when it happened, but at some point the Gleaming Eye attack was not only kept active during Nova, but enhanced by Nova as well.  So I'm hoping Combat Flight will be added to Nova capabilities as well.  If not now, then maybe at some point in the future.  I hate flying in narrow caves at high speed with limited control.

For the first paragraph, you are correct. Combat Flight and Energy Flight will work the same as Hover and Fly. 

 

It is my understanding that nothing is changed with Nova forms. If you couldn't use a power while in Nova form before, you still won't be able to now. However, I have to defer to those who have tested Kheldians in Page 2 to confirm that. If I get time, I'll dig up the power info and see if there is anything changed there, but I am 90% sure I am not mistaken....eh...80% sure.

 

If it's easier, I would recommend you copy your character over to Beta and see for yourself. I would be curious what feedback you might have to offer.

[arthurh35353]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I recommend flying at an altitude that is greater than most of the buildings and then fly around the taller ones. It's one thing having to run around every single building versus having to fly around some of the buildings.

It was a snarky comment that you can't just ignore all obstacles. And pointed out that fly is not always a straight line.

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, arthurh35353 said:

Just ignore all those tall buildings in the city?

That... is kinda what fly allows you to do.

[Infinitum]

7 minutes ago, arthurh35353 said:

It was a snarky comment that you can't just ignore all obstacles. And pointed out that fly is not always a straight line.

Yes you can because its unrestricted 3 dimensional movement capability.

 

In other words I go up down side to side now cha cha slide.... In the air.

[macskull]

7 hours ago, QuiJon said:

Ok but you didnt use afterburner, and IMO most fliers currently have it

Except the actual hard facts don't support your opinion: from the most recent publicly-released data on pool power usage, across all levels there were 182,678 characters with Fly and only 18,983 with Afterburner. For those keeping track at home, that's 10.4% of Fly users who also had Afterburner. If you're only looking at level 50 builds those numbers shift a bit - 17,435 characters with Fly and 6,140 with Afterburner, or about 35%. In other words, if you were to pick a character with Fly at random odds are very good that character would not have Afterburner.

Edited March 28, 2021 by macskull

[cohRock]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

...

It is my understanding that nothing is changed with Nova forms. If you couldn't use a power while in Nova form before, you still won't be able to now. However, I have to defer to those who have tested Kheldians in Page 2 to confirm that. If I get time, I'll dig up the power info and see if there is anything changed there, but I am 90% sure I am not mistaken....eh...80% sure.

 

If it's easier, I would recommend you copy your character over to Beta and see for yourself. I would be curious what feedback you might have to offer.

Okay, I got my Peacebringer high enough to have Combat Flight and copied him to Beta.  You were correct.  Combat Flight and Energy Flight act together to give the flight control and a little defense.  But Combat Flight is not active in Nova form, I believe leaving it the only fly power which will still lack control, constantly overshooting desired location.  So I again suggest that Nova allow Combat Flight to operate and give control.  I don't even care about the defense aspect; the control itself is what is important.

[Bopper]

 

For fun, I generated a plot showing the average fly speed performance over time when at cap (87.95 mph w/o AB, 102.27 mph w/ AB). The first 30s are great, as you're going the maxmax of 102.27 mph (85% of the run speed cap), then you quickly dip to 95 mph at the 60s mark (the same average speed you'll hit at the 120s mark when the 2nd AB wears off). At its minimum (every 90s interval, just before you activate AB again), you will have averaged 92.723 mph (77% of run speed cap). Interestingly enough, this speed is faster than the run speed cap on Live. I don't know if this was the design goal or simply a coincidence, but interesting to me nonetheless.

 

For those interested in ratio equivalences, an unslotted Afterburner on Live provides a speed cap of 72.95 mph (78.86% of Live's run cap). So at worst, the new Fly's performance is roughly on par with Live's version of Fly when given an unslotted AB. Neat factoid.

 

Anyways, this was mostly an exercise as I try to learn Octave now that I don't have MATLAB. I'll bust out some other plots in the future I'm sure.

[Bopper]

10 minutes ago, cohRock said:

Okay, I got my Peacebringer high enough to have Combat Flight and copied him to Beta.  You were correct.  Combat Flight and Energy Flight act together to give the flight control and a little defense.  But Combat Flight is not active in Nova form, I believe leaving it the only fly power which will still lack control, constantly overshooting desired location.  So I again suggest that Nova allow Combat Flight to operate and give control.  I don't even care about the defense aspect; the control itself is what is important.

I just hopped on to see if there are any options and you're right, nothing. Perhaps it would be easier to make a suggestion to add control/friction to Nova form, although some folks might like the feel of the current fly control so they may not be happy with that change idea.

[cohRock]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

I just hopped on to see if there are any options and you're right, nothing. Perhaps it would be easier to make a suggestion to add control/friction to Nova form, although some folks might like the feel of the current fly control so they may not be happy with that change idea.

You're right.  There are folks I know who willingly use Fly on purpose during missions.  They can't stand the slow speed of Hover.  But I'll gladly take the control Hover (and Combat Flight) give, especially in narrow caves and construction areas with lots of beams and pipes there blocking direct access to where you want to go.  So I think it would be better to not make controlled flight in Nova form the norm, but give people the choice to gain control via Combat Flight.

 

One way this could work is to not have the Combat Flight button active while in Nova.  But if it were active when you went into Nova form, it would remain active.  You would have to leave Nova form to shut it off.  This is how Essence Boost already works.  You cannot activate it while in Nova, but if it were active it remains active in Nova until it wears out via its normal timer.

Edited March 28, 2021 by cohRock
added second paragraph

[Excraft]

On 3/20/2021 at 9:26 PM, Obitus said:

You are, of course, welcome to feel that the developers should be doing something else instead of buffing travel powers, but that doesn't speak to the quality of the travel-power changes.  And given that devs work for free, on this game that you can play for free, waxing curmudgeonly because your own pet ideas weren't implemented first isn't terribly compelling.  It isn't as if this version of CoH is littered with game-stopping bugs that have been pointedly neglected.

 

Insulting me isn't very compelling either.  I know they work for free.  They can pick and choose whatever it is they want to do and I've never suggested otherwise.  I'm simply expressing a personal opinion there are better uses of their talents and time.  Feel free to disagree. 

[Arcanum]

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