A note on Rune of Protection changes

[BRADICAL]

Personally, I'm of the belief that we should be creating more competitive options in the pools to force some actual hard decisions in the character building process. RoP already had that effect on several of my builds. I don't see how buffing the rest of sorcery is going to make it any more desirable to the characters that were previously interested in it, without one of the other powers also being survivability-oriented, so the idea that the one "good" power people actually wanted from the set had to get nerfed to bring the rest of it up to par doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. It's not like the speed pool isn't also full of incredibly niche powers and a single great one that I'm pretty sure is taken by a lot more than 5% of characters, and that power is immediately available in the set. Besides, like I said earlier, point-for-point Spirit Ward is actually an incredibly good power numerically, it's just that the mechanic is virtually meaningless to people. I think that just goes to show how broken the value of support powers actually is.

[America's Angel]

  

44 minutes ago, nihilii said:

It's very hard to see and trust the logic, without having at least an idea of the numbers that led to this conclusion the power is overpowered.

 

On 3/30/2021 at 11:44 PM, America's Angel said:

Here's the beta server mitigation numbers for anyone curious. (On a level 50 blaster with no set bonuses/accolades.)

 

Unrelenting

With 3 IOs for healing, Unrelenting heals 1677.36 HP in 30s

...So it adds 27.96 HPS over 60s

 

Unleashed Potential

With 3 IOs for healing and 3 IOs for defense Unleashed Potential mitigates:

1897.8 damage mitigated vs 100 DPS over 60s

2886.2 damage mitigated vs 200 DPS over 60s

3894.6 damage mitigated vs 300 DPS over 60s

4893 damage mitigated  vs 400 DPs over 60s

5891 damage mitigated vs 500 DPS over 60s.

...So it adds 31.63-98.19 HPS over 60s

 

Rune of Protection
With 3 IOs for resistance, Rune of Protection mitigates:

1545 damage  vs 100 DPS over 60s

3090 damage vs 200 DPS over 60s

4635 damage vs 300 DPS over 60s

6180 damage vs 400 DPs over 60s

7725 damage vs 500 DPS over 60s

...So it adds 25.75-128.75 HPS over 60s

 

Conclusion - Rune is still significantly better than the other options.

 

**EDIT**

 

And here are the numbers on live. The gap is even more significant, and should go some way to explaining the change:

Unrelenting - 18.45 HPS over 90s

Unleashed Potential - 20.88-64.81 HPS over 90s

Rune of Protection - 25.75-128.75 HPS over 90s

 

On 3/31/2021 at 4:03 AM, America's Angel said:

The reason for 600s recharge is because that makes the minimum recharge possible 120s. This is by design, because it means the power can never have an uptime greater than 50% at the recharge cap.

 

On live, Rune currently has an uptime of 75% at the recharge cap. That is insanely overpowered and likely the reason for the nerf. If rune were to keep its 90s duration on live, the recharge would need to be increased to 900s.

[BRADICAL]

I'm not sure the efficacy of these powers is directly comparable, because defense and resistance don't have the same inherent value across the board and definitely not to every character type, and I can't think of a single build that would even be able to benefit from a short-lived defense power like Unleash Potential in the first place. Defense is already heavily saturated everywhere else in the game, in other power pools and in set bonuses in a way that are all functionally superior to that power as it is. Full stop, both examples are just kinda bad, but that shouldn't be a reason to nerf a power that has already proven its worth (and with no real data to prove that this functionality was ever, as you put it, "insanely overpowered.")

Strong numbers on paper don't always translate into overperformance in actual gameplay. I'm not saying RoP isn't an exceptional power in a very small number of cases, but there seems to be little reason to defend its nerfing without any evidence that the power was causing problems in the first place. And having played with it extensively in every single one of those cases I can think of, all I can really say it was ever doing was making things feel better for the underdog.

[Jacke]

On 3/31/2021 at 8:51 PM, Faultline said:

Realize that less than 5% of all characters have Rune at level 50; with Corruptors being the AT that takes it the most at 11%, and Brutes taking it the least at 1.7%. Compare to something like Afterburner, which was also modified this patch: 11% of all characters have it by level 50, with Blasters leading at 22% and Brutes in the back at 4% (Peacebringers are at 0.6% but we're ignoring them since they get inherent versions of it). So part of the reason why the Rune feedback was largely not acknowledged is that it was seen as a sidegrade (remember that it comes with a buff when used reactively) that affected a minority. So having many pages of feedback arguing about this one particular power lets us know that while it's only used by a minority, that minority is pretty serious about it, and we should handle it with more care.

 

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

Thank you for the hard numbers. It does support the thesis many of us intuitively had, without access to data: RoP usage is minimal.

But... it doesn't help the dev thesis we're hearing, that of RoP being overpowered.

You'd expect the playerbase to gravitate towards overpowered picks, as they do in every other part of the game. RoP being "new" cannot explain away lack of popularity. People took but a few months, if not weeks, to start playing Titan Weapons and Rad/Fire brutes massively.

It's very hard to see and trust the logic, without having at least an idea of the numbers that led to this conclusion the power is overpowered.

 

I think the numbers are so low because Sorcery is an Origin Pool as opposed to a Primary/Secondary Powerset.  Besides the choice of Primary and Secondary--which are unchangeable but can be different on an alt--Power Pools choices are the tightest resource in a build, allowing only 4 and only 1 Origin Pool.

 

To take on Titan Weapons or Radiation Melee+Fiery Aura only needs an experimental alt,  A player has to learn about the power of Rune and decide it's an experiment worth taking up 1 Power Pool choice and 3 Power choices in a build that only has 4 and 24 of them to go around.  In discussion with another player, they mentioned they start out in a build taking all 9 Primary and 9 Secondary powers, then the Leadership Pool and some of its powers, then they fill in.  Other people do it other ways.  Certain powerful build measures, especially those needing a Power Pool pick and thus excluding other Pools,  are going to be slow to spread.  Especially as other Power Pools have very powerful powers to improve a build and give it travel speed.

 

Notwithstanding that, I do not think Rune is overpowered.  Note that Corrupters builds had it the most.  I'd bet that Defenders, Controllers, and Dominators are up there too.  It was used to level the Mez playing field as well as another Resist Damage power for Resist IOs and IO sets, both of which are needed by squishies to shore up inherent weaknesses.

 

We've had many players like @Luminara and @Linea give the history and experience of Mez in City of Heroes.  From both the perspective of a game and from the comics source material, such a binary division, between those ATs that barely need to care beyond seeing their shield power is up and those who have to plan their builds and tactics around the very real threat, well, it's not right.

 

For the weakest and easiest to tolerate / handle "Mez", Knockback, name me one comic-book superhero who's NEVER been knocked down or back.  (Well, one who's not the next best thing to an Uber God.)

 

I hope Mez gets some serious address soon.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Jacke

[America's Angel]

16 minutes ago, BRADICAL said:

I'm not sure the efficacy of these powers is directly comparable, because defense and resistance don't have the same inherent value across the board and definitely not to every character type, and I can't think of a single build that would even be able to benefit from a short-lived defense power like Unleash Potential in the first place. Defense is already heavily saturated everywhere else in the game, in other power pools and in set bonuses in a way that are all functionally superior to that power as it is. Full stop, both examples are just kinda bad, but that shouldn't be a reason to nerf a power that has already proven its worth (and with no real data to prove that this functionality was ever, as you put it, "insanely overpowered.")

Strong numbers on paper don't always translate into overperformance in actual gameplay. I'm not saying RoP isn't an exceptional power in a very small number of cases, but there seems to be little reason to defend its nerfing without any evidence that the power was causing problems in the first place. And having played with it extensively in every single one of those cases I can think of, all I can really say it was ever doing was making things feel better for the underdog.

 

You're looking at this from an IO'd-at-50 POV.

 

The devs are looking at it from a leveling-from-1-to-50 POV.

 

Hence the disconnect.

Edited April 3, 2021 by America's Angel

[Ankhammon]

So just give me my new AT with Defender primary and melee secondary and make the inherent a mag 3 mez prot and I'll go about my merry way making dozens of new chars and you will never hear me complain. 😄

[BRADICAL]

4 minutes ago, Ankhammon said:

So just give me my new AT with Defender primary and melee secondary and make the inherent a mag 3 mez prot and I'll go about my merry way making dozens of new chars and you will never hear me complain. 😄

THE DREAM.

[BRADICAL]

32 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

You're looking at this from an IO'd-at-50 POV.

 

The devs are looking at it from a leveling-from-1-to-50 POV.

 

Hence the disconnect.

I mean, playing at the recharge cap isn't even a factor when IO'd at 50, much less during the leveling process, so I have my sincere doubts about that. RoP is pretty underwhelming on SOs, overtuned or not.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

The devs are looking at it from a leveling-from-1-to-50 POV

Yet the nerf is only going to affect the IO'd crowd. A build running just SOs can't use it in a manner that could be considered gamebreaking. Irrespective of that, being a full IO build doesn't break the power either.

 

I know I said I was done posting in this thread, but I couldn't stop myself from this one. It's just a bad argument on every face.

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, nihilii said:

On that point specifically...

 

Is anyone under the belief most people take Hasten because they have "speedster" as a theme?

Combat Jumping because they're roleplaying an acrobat?

 

Tough/Weave because they're a brawler?

Maneuvers/Assault/Tactics because their character is a natural born leader?

If a specific distinction is to be made between origin pools and generic power pools, where origin pools must be picked only for theme and generic power pools for any reason, then invariably origin pools will be second class citizens. The moment an origin pool is at least as good as the 4th best generic power pool, it's going to be an alternative pick regardless of theme; and by corollary if only thematic reasons must lead to origin pools, then the best origin pool will always be below the 4th best generic power pool...

 

If the idea that origin pools were created for theme and there is an expectation that only those folks who pick that theme will want those powers no matter how lackluster they are,  then I'd rather they not create any further origin pools and just create generic ones that work with any theme. It will just be a waste of time.

Edited April 3, 2021 by golstat2003

[siolfir]

Fun anecdote, but it's somewhat neutral feedback from a third party - I was talking to a friend who used to play on live (and doesn't play here) and this thread came up because I was catching up to it at the time. Since they stopped playing well before shutdown, they had no idea of anything in the Sorcery pool and I decided to see if they could guess what the power does when I told them the name, and that it was being nerfed.

 

Unprompted for anything other than details when they answered "well, it provides protection," they guessed that it "probably provides a lot of defense, like 50% to everything, and mez protection." I asked them how long they thought the recharge on such a power should be, and how long it would last. They correctly guessed the 10 minute recharge, and said that it would probably last 60 seconds, "same as an inspiration." I asked if they felt their description of the power was too strong, and they said no, because you can get an accolade that does 50% defense and 30% resistance without having to pick any powers.

 

So you see, just need to change it to +50% defense to all instead of +18.75% resistance and we're good to go. 🤪

[America's Angel]

7 hours ago, BRADICAL said:

I mean, playing at the recharge cap isn't even a factor when IO'd at 50, much less during the leveling process, so I have my sincere doubts about that. RoP is pretty underwhelming on SOs, overtuned or not.

 

6 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Yet the nerf is only going to affect the IO'd crowd. A build running just SOs can't use it in a manner that could be considered gamebreaking. Irrespective of that, being a full IO build doesn't break the power either.

 

I know I said I was done posting in this thread, but I couldn't stop myself from this one. It's just a bad argument on every face.

 

You're both correct that the current iterations of Rune both on live and in beta are underwhelming on SOs. This is because:

• Most spawns clear in 30-40s, so you have a duration redundancy of 50-60s on live & 20-30s on beta.
• 90/60s duration means the enhaceable recharge has to be very long. So you can't use it as an escape mez power as frequently as you'd like.

 

There is a further change being trialed on the closed beta server that goes some way to improve these concerns.

 

For those curious, here's a link to the testing discord: https://discord.gg/DptUBzh

Edited April 4, 2021 by America's Angel

[Cheli]

4 hours ago, nihilii said:

On that point specifically...

 

Is anyone under the belief most people take Hasten because they have "speedster" as a theme?

Combat Jumping because they're roleplaying an acrobat?

 

Tough/Weave because they're a brawler?

Maneuvers/Assault/Tactics because their character is a natural born leader?

If a specific distinction is to be made between origin pools and generic power pools, where origin pools must be picked only for theme and generic power pools for any reason, then invariably origin pools will be second class citizens. The moment an origin pool is at least as good as the 4th best generic power pool, it's going to be an alternative pick regardless of theme; and by corollary if only thematic reasons must lead to origin pools, then the best origin pool will always be below the 4th best generic power pool...

I'm a lifelong hardcore RPer and outside of primary and secondary sets, I rarely make build decisions based on RP reasons. And as I mentioned in one of the other threads on this, when I do make very specific build decisions for RP reasons, it's usually with the grudging acknowledgment that I'm purposefully making my character perform suboptimally for the theme. I'd much rather feel like I have more room for builds to breathe for RP reasons, tbh, but the solution to that problem isn't "nerf ROP/hasten/tough/weave to make all choices equally unappealing" imo.

[BRADICAL]

57 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

There is a further change being trialed on the closed beta server that goes some way to improve these concerns.

Thanks for the heads up!

I'm feeling more optimistic about things now for sure.

[Blackbird71]

5 hours ago, Jacke said:

 

 

I think the numbers are so low because Sorcery is an Origin Pool as opposed to a Primary/Secondary Powerset.  Besides the choice of Primary and Secondary--which are unchangeable but can be different on an alt--Power Pools choices are the tightest resource in a build, allowing only 4 and only 1 Origin Pool.

 

To take on Titan Weapons or Radiation Melee+Fiery Aura only needs an experimental alt,  A player has to learn about the power of Rune and decide it's an experiment worth taking up 1 Power Pool choice and 3 Power choices in a build that only has 4 and 24 of them to go around.  In discussion with another player, they mentioned they start out in a build taking all 9 Primary and 9 Secondary powers, then the Leadership Pool and some of its powers, then they fill in.  Other people do it other ways.  Certain powerful build measures, especially those needing a Power Pool pick and thus excluding other Pools,  are going to be slow to spread.  Especially as other Power Pools have very powerful powers to improve a build and give it travel speed.

 

So, this brings up a thought I've been having:  what level of usage should we be expecting from RoP?  Fair warning, to give my opinion, I'm going to have to delve heavily into the realms of assumptions, speculation, and hypotheses.

First, let's consider that this is an Origin Pool, meaning it's specifically themed to the magic origin.  While HC has made it possible for any origin to take it, let's just assume the intent is for it to be used primarily by magic origin characters.

So, next assumption:  all HC characters are divided equally among the five origins.  I'm sure the devs could provide numbers on this, but without those, I'll just have to go with the idea that magic-themed characters account for ~20% of all those on HC.

Of course, not every magic origin character will make use of the magic origin pool.  By a rough opinion, I would propose that if the origin pool is performing well, and is a solid but not overpowered choice, it would be used by roughly half of the characters with that origin.  So, taken with the previous assumptions, that would be ~10% of the total character population.

For a more numerical analysis, we can consider that there are 9 base power pools, and add the one corresponding origin pool for a total of 10 pools, of which a character may choose four.  These numbers would suggest that, all powers being equally effective, the Sorcery pool would be selected on two out of every five magic-origin characters.  This would work out to 8% of the total character population.

So, I'll make an assumption of 8%-10% as a (very) rough statistical window to indicate that Sorcery is performing well, but not overperforming.  If all these assumptions are remotely correct, then the number of 5% shared by Faultline would indicate that RoP or the Sorcery pool as a whole is underperforming by as much as half of what it should be.

Now, if we break this down further, Corruptors taking RoP at 11% hits close to this target range, indicating that the power and pool are considered a decent option, and perhaps only slightly better than alternatives.

Conversely though, with a 5% usage across all ATs, Corruptors being at 11% would indicate that some other ATs fall well below this 5%.  This would mean that for magic-origin characters of some ATs, the magic-origin pool is severely underperforming and is significantly less desirable than the available alternatives.

Are all of these assumptions accurate?  Probably not.  Are there flaws to this reasoning?  Plenty, I'm sure.  Does it provide any sort of baseline guideline for expectations?  Maybe; I think it at least sets something of a ballpark.  At the very least, it was an interesting thought experiment for me.  Maybe it's useful, maybe it's not.  If the numbers are completely wrong, at least it might give the devs an idea of what player expectations for power performance could be.  If they have some other ideas on what we should expect, then maybe they can use this to learn how to manage player expectations.  If these numbers and assumptions actually make some kind of sense, then maybe it can help guide them towards where the powers and pools need to be.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Blackbird71

[Coyotedancer]

6 hours ago, BRADICAL said:

Thanks for the heads up!

I'm feeling more optimistic about things now for sure.

 

I'd say be... very cautious about that. <_<

[Myrmidon]

6 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

 

So, this brings up a thought I've been having:  what level of usage should we be expecting from RoP?  Fair warning, to give my opinion, I'm going to have to delve heavily into the realms of assumptions, speculation, and hypotheses.

First, let's consider that this is an Origin Pool, meaning it's specifically themed to the magic origin.  While HC has made it possible for any origin to take it, let's just assume the intent is for it to be used primarily by magic origin characters.

So, next assumption:  all HC characters are divided equally among the five origins.  I'm sure the devs could provide numbers on this, but without those, I'll just have to go with the idea that magic-themed characters account for ~20% of all those on HC.

Of course, not every magic origin character will make use of the magic origin pool.  By a rough opinion, I would propose that if the origin pool is performing well, and is a solid but not overpowered choice, it would be used by roughly half of the characters with that origin.  So, taken with the previous assumptions, that would be ~10% of the total character population.

For a more numerical analysis, we can consider that there are 9 base power pools, and add the one corresponding origin pool for a total of 10 pools, of which a character may choose four.  These numbers would suggest that, all powers being equally effective, the Sorcery pool would be selected on two out of every five magic-origin characters.  This would work out to 8% of the total character population.

So, I'll make an assumption of 8%-10% as a (very) rough statistical window to indicate that Sorcery is performing well, but not overperforming.  If all these assumptions are remotely correct, then the number of 5% shared by Faultline would indicate that RoP or the Sorcery pool as a whole is underperforming by as much as half of what it should be.

Now, if we break this down further, Corruptors taking RoP at 11% hits close to this target range, indicating that the power and pool are considered a decent option, and perhaps only slightly better than alternatives.

Conversely though, with a 5% usage across all ATs, Corruptors being at 11% would indicate that some other ATs fall well below this 5%.  This would mean that for magic-origin characters of some ATs, the magic-origin pool is severely underperforming and is significantly less desirable than the available alternatives.

Are all of these assumptions accurate?  Probably not.  Are there flaws to this reasoning?  Plenty, I'm sure.  Does it provide any sort of baseline guideline for expectations?  Maybe; I think it at least sets something of a ballpark.  At the very least, it was an interesting thought experiment for me.  Maybe it's useful, maybe it's not.  If the numbers are completely wrong, at least it might give the devs an idea of what player expectations for power performance could be.  If they have some other ideas on what we should expect, then maybe they can use this to learn how to manage player expectations.  If these numbers and assumptions actually make some kind of sense, then maybe it can help guide them towards where the powers and pools need to be.

Just to be clear, is this feedback or just simple “discussion”?

[nihilii]

15 hours ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

Conclusion - Rune is still significantly better than the other options.

I can't disagree with that, but I disagree with the premise these powers should be looked at in a vacuum.

 

Even your quote is somewhat misleading: Rune is significantly better than *equivalent Origin power pool* options. It's not significantly better than the other options in terms of power picks (or at least the current numbers have not demonstrated that), the most obvious of which would be whatever your 4th power pool is.

 

Say I become a dev tomorrow (and god save you all). I make 4 nihilii-themed power pools, named N1 to N4.

 

As I am a very creative person, all nihilii pools are comprised of a single power, a passive HP boost.

N1 gives +0.01% HP.

N2 gives +0.01% HP.

N3 gives +0.01% HP.

N4 gives +0.1% HP.

 

Is N4 "overpowered"? Within the context of nihilii pools, you might be tempted to say yes.

 

But in the grand scheme of things, I'd call you a fool if you picked N4 over Leadership or Fighting. Or even over Sorcery or Experimentation.

Relative power in a vacuum cannot in itself make something overpowered. The numbers I would like to see come down to characters with RoP significantly outperforming characters without RoP... Even within a specific subset, i.e. let's say squishies only; if we see players who pick RoP experience ~20% less defeats than the average squishie, that would be an interesting data point that might support the dev stance somewhat.

 

[nihilii]

14 hours ago, Jacke said:

I think the numbers are so low because Sorcery is an Origin Pool as opposed to a Primary/Secondary Powerset.  Besides the choice of Primary and Secondary--which are unchangeable but can be different on an alt--Power Pools choices are the tightest resource in a build, allowing only 4 and only 1 Origin Pool.

Interesting! I don't know whether I should be thankful you just educated me, or sad that Origin Pools are so bad overall I've never been tempted to fit more than 1 into any of my builds. 😄

[nihilii]

I don't believe origin pools shouldn't be balanced relative to each other.

 

I don't believe stronger numbers in a vacuum demonstrate overpoweredness.

Neither of these beliefs are mutually exclusive.

All T5 origins could be buffed to 120s. All other T5 origins could be buffed to 120s, with RoP remaining at 90s. Or any other change upwards.

 

Origin Pools can be 1) balanced between each other, and 2) balanced as a power pool pick. Not an either/or, but both. They can and arguably they SHOULD be.

 

My opinion, shared by some, is that Origin Pools, RoP included, currently aren't optimal choices.

The logical choice under that perspective is to buff Origin Pools towards parity, not nerf the slightly more powerful Origin Pool that still isn't up to par down to the other severely underpar choices.

 

The "buff" solution solves a practical game balance issue. People would start using Origin Pools more often.

The "nerf" solution solves a theorycraft problem. The only realistic externality to that solution is a reduction of the number of characters who pick Sorcery, and that reduction is unlikely to be compensated by a proportional increase ot the number of characters picking other Origin Pools.

Edited April 4, 2021 by nihilii

[America's Angel]

17 minutes ago, nihilii said:

My opinion, shared by some, is that Origin Pools, RoP included, currently aren't optimal choices.

For what?

[nihilii]

19 minutes ago, America&#x27;s Angel said:

For what?

For what... what? 🤨

 

Your increasing brevity sounds increasingly trollish... coupled with deleting the post of yours where you quoted me, that I replied to but didn't quote.

Jesus Christ, man. It's a video game forum. You don't need to be so upset about "losing the argument" you become more and more vague and succinct to the point you don't feel "trapped" when someone shows a statement of yours to not be fully accurate. There is no great forum PvP game here of being perfect and immaculate.

Just two posts ago, *I* admitted I was completely unaware of the only one per build limitation of Origin Pools specifically. So there you go. I make mistakes too. I am dumb. You win.

It's frustrating how 99% of these balance discussions are derailed by a handful of forum posters playing some childish ego metagame.

[Blackbird71]

4 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

Just to be clear, is this feedback or just simple “discussion”?

A bit of both.  I'd consider it feedback on the grounds that it informs the devs what sort of numbers I'd expect to see if RoP were performing well or "overtuned."  That then gives the devs something to work with, even if that work is just correcting my expectations with some other justification.

Managing customer expectations is a huge part of any project, and understanding customers' existing expectations is an important part of that.  So far, it feels like the HC devs have done a poor job of 1) understanding what the players' expectations are for RoP (and other powers addressed in this page), and 2) effectively communicating what expectations they think the players should have, and providing sufficient reasoning to convince them why those expectations should be considered the standard by which to measure this update.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Blackbird71

[America's Angel]

38 minutes ago, nihilii said:

For what... what? 🤨

 

Your increasing brevity sounds increasingly trollish... coupled with deleting the post of yours where you quoted me, that I replied to but didn't quote.

Jesus Christ, man. It's a video game forum. You don't need to be so upset about "losing the argument" you become more and more vague and succinct to the point you don't feel "trapped" when someone shows a statement of yours to not be fully accurate. There is no great forum PvP game here of being perfect and immaculate.

Just two posts ago, *I* admitted I was completely unaware of the only one per build limitation of Origin Pools specifically. So there you go. I make mistakes too. I am dumb. You win.

It's frustrating how 99% of these balance discussions are derailed by a handful of forum posters playing some childish ego metagame.

I was genuinely asking. Brevity helps cut through noise IME. (Of which there is a lot in this thread.) I was hoping you might have some insight I hadn't considered as I'm currently testing these changes pretty extensively.

 

(Also, if you could chill out on the personal attacks I'd appreciate it.)

[arcane]

2 hours ago, nihilii said:

For what... what? 🤨

 

Your increasing brevity sounds increasingly trollish... coupled with deleting the post of yours where you quoted me, that I replied to but didn't quote.

Jesus Christ, man. It's a video game forum. You don't need to be so upset about "losing the argument" you become more and more vague and succinct to the point you don't feel "trapped" when someone shows a statement of yours to not be fully accurate. There is no great forum PvP game here of being perfect and immaculate.

Just two posts ago, *I* admitted I was completely unaware of the only one per build limitation of Origin Pools specifically. So there you go. I make mistakes too. I am dumb. You win.

It's frustrating how 99% of these balance discussions are derailed by a handful of forum posters playing some childish ego metagame.

That’s an awful lot being read into two words. Seems like a high level of projection..