A note on Rune of Protection changes

[Coyotedancer]

Fair enough. 

 

I'll admit that I pretty much ignore the resistance effect. I'm entirely in it for the mez protection, especially on that Mastermind I mentioned earlier.

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Fair enough. 

 

I'll admit that I pretty much ignore the resistance effect. I'm entirely in it for the mez protection, especially on that Mastermind I mentioned earlier.

 

Funny story, that added Resistance that RoP gives you, stacks with Bodyguard mode, giving you an insane level of mitigation on your Mastermind (in addition to the Mez Protection), as your resistance reduces the damage first, then Bodyguard mode is activated.

[CaptainLupis]

3 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Fair enough. 

 

I'll admit that I pretty much ignore the resistance effect. I'm entirely in it for the mez protection, especially on that Mastermind I mentioned earlier.

Ironically I first picked up RoP on my rad armour tank to fill the hole in it's mez protection to confuses. Only to discover after taking it it doesn't protect from confuse! And as I hate respeccing I kept it for the res and rotated it with meltdown, so that character only uses it for the res. Others use it for the mez protection. 

[Coyotedancer]

3 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Funny story, that added Resistance that RoP gives you, stacks with Bodyguard mode, giving you an insane level of mitigation on your Mastermind (in addition to the Mez Protection), as your resistance reduces the damage first, then Bodyguard mode is activated.

 

Nice for my little guys, who are the ones I tend to keep in Bodyguard. 👍

[arcane]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Frankly, this all just smells of changing a power based on spreadsheet analysis and not on in-game function. On paper, perhaps the power itself might be "too strong", though I struggle to hold that opinion considering what players can do without it that makes them better than they ever were with the power. That's my problem with this change: it's changing something based on spreadsheet data and not practical usage.

 

When you can make a character more powerful, and do so much easier, by picking up the "standard meta" of Pool Powers to cap out your defenses and run around with around 200% recharge solo, and that is better than Rune will ever be under it's current Live numbers, how can you justify a nerf to it?

 

One single power being good, but difficult to leverage with clear trade-offs sounds like GOOD design to me. In a game where being a literal god is but a few IOs away, how is one difficult-to-leverage alternative even an issue?

Absolutely disagree with the “must be considered as good as Hasten, Weave, Maneuvers, etc. before you can nerf it”. Those powers are at the far (good) end of the bell curve, yes, but IMO everything on the entire “better” half of the bell curve is fair game for balancing.
 

I also think the only reason the big 4 pools meta hasn’t been nerfed to encourage build diversity is because the shitstorm would make this thread look like nothing - not because those powers represent the epitome of reasonable balance.

[Apparition]

2 hours ago, BRADICAL said:

By non-viable, what I mean to say is that without RoP, any one of my Time/X defenders is going to have it much harder soloing even something simple like a fire farm set to +4/x8.

 

Uh... if you're trying to prove that Rune of Protection isn't overpowered, that's not the route you want to take, 'cause you just did a bang up job of proving that it is.

Edited March 31, 2021 by Apparition

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, arcane said:

Absolutely disagree with the “must be considered as good as Hasten, Weave, Maneuvers, etc. before you can nerf it”. Those powers are at the far (good) end of the bell curve, yes, but IMO everything on the entire “better” half of the bell curve is fair game for balancing.
 

I also think the only reason the big 4 pools meta hasn’t been nerfed to encourage build diversity is because the shitstorm would make this thread look like nothing - not because those powers represent the epitome of reasonable balance.

 

Here is where I would actually disagree a lot. Hasten has an end crash, and doesn't stack (no matter how hard you try..) Tough/Weave have pretty steep endurance costs, as does Maneuvers. What makes them so powerful is that they stack, and you can manage their downsides pretty easily.

 

Now Combat Jumping? That power is heavily overpowered for what it does.

[ForeverLaxx]

36 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

You assume facts not in evidence

I can only work with what I'm given, and they don't like to give anything I can work with. In the absence of evidence to the contrary (and the fact that Dominators are designed around permaDom, making high recharge an "expectation" to a certain degree), I'm going to continue to hold my opinion that High Recharge + Defense Cap is an acceptable level of power for the Developers.

 

In that scenario, one power you can't afford to perma when solo that also tends to strip significant defense bonuses from the build when not used with powersets that provide their own inherent defenses getting nerfed for being "too good" just seems exceptionally silly and needlessly restricts build diversity. Sets that come with their own modifiers to defense can hit the Defense Cap much easier, but we're not nerfing SR or Defense Set Bonuses simply because SR can hit the cap way faster, easier, and cheaper than Regen. Instead, we're nerfing a power that takes 3 power slots to access, locks you out of power pools to access, takes one of your 4 allotted pools, and is essentially just a glorified Break Free + Orange inspiration.

 

I'm with you on wondering what else they may think is overpowered if they believe RoP qualifies, though, considering how it works in-game and not in the vacuum of a spreadsheet.

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I can only work with what I'm given, and they don't like to give anything I can work with. In the absence of evidence to the contrary (and the fact that Dominators are designed around permaDom, making high recharge an "expectation" to a certain degree), I'm going to continue to hold my opinion that High Recharge + Defense Cap is an acceptable level of power for the Developers.

 

In that scenario, one power you can't afford to perma when solo that also tends to strip significant defense bonuses from the build when not used with powersets that provide their own inherent defenses getting nerfed for being "too good" just seems exceptionally silly and needlessly restricts build diversity. Sets that come with their own modifiers to defense can hit the Defense Cap much easier, but we're not nerfing SR or Defense Set Bonuses simply because SR can hit the cap way faster, easier, and cheaper than Regen. Instead, we're nerfing a power that takes 3 power slots to access, locks you out of power pools to access, takes one of your 4 allotted pools, and is essentially just a glorified Break Free + Orange inspiration.

 

I'm with you on wondering what else they may think is overpowered if they believe RoP qualifies, though, considering how it works in-game and not in the vacuum of a spreadsheet.

 

I'm confused how you're saying that RoP strips significant Defense bonuses, when it takes Resistance IO sets, and can literally give you 6% defense (via two slots) in addition to the Mez Protection and Resistance. Steadfast Protection, and Gladiator's Armor can both be slotted in it, giving more defense then base Weave/Manuevers/Combat Jumping...

[Luminara]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

The squishies tend to have control and range - chances to take out and/or debuff (and/or buff the rest of the team) before the enemy's given a *chance* to mez them.  That's their mez protection.

 

Using controls takes time.  If you're facing three Tsoo Yellow Ink Men, that's time you have to spend mezzing each one.  Does Unyielding work in a similar manner, forcing you to perform an animation for every mez you encounter?  No, you're not rooted in place and locked out of your other powers while the toggle is dealing with the mez for you.  This allows the toggle/click status protection user to progress more rapidly and respond instantly to other threats, while the squishie is forced to pay an animation tax just to proceed.

 

Using controls can fail.  There's always a 5% chance for a control to miss.  Does Active Defense miss?  No, of course not.  Active Defense ensures that those three Tsoo Yellow Ink Men won't put your character to Sleep.  But controls, due to the hit check mechanic, offer no similar guarantee.

 

Controls don't deal much damage.  Squishies already have low damage scalars, and they're required to use their least damaging powers to lead fights so they can prevent themselves from being mezzed.  Meanwhile, other archetypes are leading with their strongest attacks, because they can ignore mez.  They mop up all three of those Ink Men in seconds, while the squishies are still trying to prevent themselves from being mezzed.

 

Break Frees aren't Rages, or Insights, or Lucks.  Archetypes with toggle/click status protection can afford to bring some variety to their inspiration tray.  Not only are they exempt from the status protection animation tax, and the potential for missing with their status protection, and dealing more damage by using their more powerful attacks to start fights, but they can also carry more combat inspirations to improve their efficiency and speed.

 

Range is poor at providing defensive benefits in Co*.  It doesn't offer increased Defense.  There's no +Res_For_Being_At_Range modifier.  Enemies can move into melee range.  If the squishie's controls, the controls he/she was forced to use to make up for not having status protection, actually did the job, then range becomes a penalty, not a bonus.  Those enemies are, presumably, mezzed, but the squishie is paying yet another tax, that of ranged damage being lower than melee damage.

 

Don't say "teams".  Cryptic started moving us away from that solution a long, long time ago.  Paragon did nothing to steer us back toward it.  The HC team opened up multiple "team only" avenues to solo players, so clearly, they're no more intent on forcing players to team for basic things than the previous developers were.  The "team if you want status protection" horse died so long ago that it's not even a decomposing pile of bones at this point, it's dust.

 

Squishies have to pay animation taxes, damage taxes and HP taxes "for having debuffs and controls" (everyone has some controls, and some debuffs, but everyone doesn't pay the same taxes, oddly).  Any one of those three would be a sufficient limitation.  All three together is... well, it leads to threads like this.

[ForeverLaxx]

7 minutes ago, arcane said:

Absolutely disagree with the “must be considered as good as Hasten, Weave, Maneuvers, etc. before you can nerf it”. Those powers are at the far (good) end of the bell curve, yes, but IMO everything on the entire “better” half of the bell curve is fair game for balancing.
 

I also think the only reason the big 4 pools meta hasn’t been nerfed to encourage build diversity is because the shitstorm would make this thread look like nothing - not because those powers represent the epitome of reasonable balance.

Your attempts to distill an argument down to a soundbite in order to refute it miss the mark, yet again.

 

My point is not that powers needs to reach "The Big 3" before they can be nerfed, my point is that when a power doesn't even come close to those is getting nerfed for being "too good", there's some obvious spreadsheet number crunching going on and no accounting for how the game actually plays or what you lose to get there.

 

115% global recharge and you have permaHasten. Everything you take to get to that number are defense powers, which encourages 45% Defense Softcaps. The powers essentially pick themselves.

 

Compared to 500% recharge for "perma"RoP. You're not getting that solo unless all you want to do is have RoP as your entire build. You may pick up Hasten, and you might even be able to get it perma, but you'll be charged 3 picks and 3 pools (since you're locked out of two for picking Sorcery at all) to use RoP instead Defense as your personal armoring of choice. What do you gain by doing this? 20-40% resistances if you slot for it, and downtime between activations that you have to fill with other powers if you don't want to be vulnerable.

 

So you give up passive, perfect defensive coverage in order to gain active, imperfect coverage that's weaker than the former. Yet it's still getting nerfed, because "internal discussion" says it's too good.

 

As I said before, I don't buy it.

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Controls don't deal much damage.  Squishies already have low damage scalars, and they're required to use their least damaging powers to lead fights so they can prevent themselves from being mezzed.  Meanwhile, other archetypes are leading with their strongest attacks, because they can ignore mez.  They mop up all three of those Ink Men in seconds, while the squishies are still trying to prevent themselves from being mezzed.

 

Blasters have the highest damage scalars for both melee and ranged attacks and are arguable the most squishy. Controllers deal double damage when something is mezzed. I'll give you Defenders and Corruptors, though they do have solo bonuses (30% damage for defenders, and Scourge for Corruptors)

 

They also have MUCH higher buff/debuff values. Except Blasters, who have the weakest.

 

AoE mezzes exist, kiting is a thing. Jousting is also a thing. Line of Sight tactics pretty much wreck the AI in City of Heroes so badly isn't not even funny. There are plenty of other ways to deal with Mez then popping an origin power pool and pretending you're a tank for 60-90 seconds.

[BRADICAL]

1 minute ago, Apparition said:

Uh... if you're trying to prove that Rune of Protection isn't overpowered, that's not the route you want to take.

I'm not trying to prove that. I fully agree that RoP is a high value choice for anyone in the same niche position as something like a Time/X defender looking to rotate their defenses in order to become survivable in a way that many other archetypes don't have to do in order to achieve what is often worse performance than those who can do this without breaking a sweat, and I'm confident that this position is well understood by the powers-that-be. What we may disagree upon is whether a defender should be capable of it at all, versus something like a tanker or scrapper. Either way, the system is there to push the limits, and a fire farm isn't exactly the hardest thing to tackle but it does serve as a reasonable baseline for how well you can soak up damage consistently.

Soloing a +4/x8 fire farm is still entirely possible without RoP (and even moreso with RoP merely nerfed in duration) under these circumstances, to clarify; it's just less comfortable, and does more to push things towards the melee meta than they already were.

[SwitchFade]

Sweet baby dirt-napping jebus.

 

Stop the madness.

[Arbegla]

That goes back to the "But What is Balance?" argument.

 

Do we balance around +4/x8? or not?

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Sweet baby dirt-napping jebus.

 

Stop the madness.

But Easter has a full moon. Zombie WereWolf Jesus rises!

Edited March 31, 2021 by Arbegla

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Your attempts to distill an argument down to a soundbite in order to refute it miss the mark, yet again.

 

My point is not that powers needs to reach "The Big 3" before they can be nerfed, my point is that when a power doesn't even come close to those is getting nerfed for being "too good", there's some obvious spreadsheet number crunching going on and no accounting for how the game actually plays or what you lose to get there.

 

115% global recharge and you have permaHasten. Everything you take to get to that number are defense powers, which encourages 45% Defense Softcaps. The powers essentially pick themselves.

 

Compared to 500% recharge for "perma"RoP. You're not getting that solo unless all you want to do is have RoP as your entire build. You may pick up Hasten, and you might even be able to get it perma, but you'll be charged 3 picks and 3 pools (since you're locked out of two for picking Sorcery at all) to use RoP instead Defense as your personal armoring of choice. What do you gain by doing this? 20-40% resistances if you slot for it, and downtime between activations that you have to fill with other powers if you don't want to be vulnerable.

 

So you give up passive, perfect defensive coverage in order to gain active, imperfect coverage that's weaker than the former. Yet it's still getting nerfed, because "internal discussion" says it's too good.

 

As I said before, I don't buy it.

Right... and.. again.. my point is that those powers should not be the reference point for balance at all. So until we stop bringing up the absolute *best* pool powers when balance is something you do based on the *average* pool power, the comparisons are irrelevant to me.

[Arbegla]

15 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Your attempts to distill an argument down to a soundbite in order to refute it miss the mark, yet again.

 

My point is not that powers needs to reach "The Big 3" before they can be nerfed, my point is that when a power doesn't even come close to those is getting nerfed for being "too good", there's some obvious spreadsheet number crunching going on and no accounting for how the game actually plays or what you lose to get there.

 

115% global recharge and you have permaHasten. Everything you take to get to that number are defense powers, which encourages 45% Defense Softcaps. The powers essentially pick themselves.

 

Compared to 500% recharge for "perma"RoP. You're not getting that solo unless all you want to do is have RoP as your entire build. You may pick up Hasten, and you might even be able to get it perma, but you'll be charged 3 picks and 3 pools (since you're locked out of two for picking Sorcery at all) to use RoP instead Defense as your personal armoring of choice. What do you gain by doing this? 20-40% resistances if you slot for it, and downtime between activations that you have to fill with other powers if you don't want to be vulnerable.

 

So you give up passive, perfect defensive coverage in order to gain active, imperfect coverage that's weaker than the former. Yet it's still getting nerfed, because "internal discussion" says it's too good.

 

As I said before, I don't buy it.

 

You can't actually perma RoP.. its not possible now on live. Best you can get is 1/4 reduction, at 400% recharge, giving you a recharge of 150 seconds, with a duration of 90.

 

But what you get is complete immunity to Mezzes for the duration. That is a MASSIVE boost and you're simple intentionally undervaluing. You also get a pretty nice resistance bonus to EVERYTHING. All Damage types. Including Psi. Rune of Protection is best compared to Strength of Will, the Willpower T9 power, which ironically enough, doesn't accept any Recharge enhancements. And you get pick it up at level 20, on ANY AT.

[Peacemoon]

If this the verdict on RoP I can’t wait to see the verdict on Judgement powers. People are in for a shock!

[Arbegla]

6 minutes ago, Peacemoon said:

If this the verdict on RoP I can’t wait to see the verdict on Judgement powers. People are in for a shock!

 

I doubt it. Judgement powers are:

 

1) Unlocked via the Incarnate System, which is designed to literally turn you into a God.

2) Only available to slot at level 50.

3) Only available to be used down to level 45.

4) Usually end up corpse blasting and/or having wasted targets. Even Ion, with its bouncing has a hard time hitting the 40 person target cap.

[Greycat]

30 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Using controls takes time.  If you're facing three Tsoo Yellow Ink Men, that's time you have to spend mezzing each one.  Does Unyielding work in a similar manner, forcing you to perform an animation for every mez you encounter?  No, you're not rooted in place and locked out of your other powers while the toggle is dealing with the mez for you.  This allows the toggle/click status protection user to progress more rapidly and respond instantly to other threats, while the squishie is forced to pay an animation tax just to proceed.

 

 

 

Put the melee in the same position as the squishy. No mez protection. HOwever, he has to move into melee range to do anything.

 

The squishy is attacking. Debuffing, putting holds or confuses or whatnot on the ink men. Debuffing them. Blinding them. Dropping their ToHit. Making them flop around on an ice patch. They get the advantage of attacking *first.*

 

What is the melee doing? Stuck there not able to attack because they're mezzed and only have melee.

 

So, sorry. Have to disagree. Melee gets status protection built in so they can do *anything at all.*

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, Arbegla said:

 

Oh I agree, but its still different animals. And pretending they are the same, it isn't fair to RoP. Because RoP is 1 power that provides immunity to an entire section of the game (in addition to granting significant damage resistance to ALL damage types) for its entire duration.

 

Softcapping your defense isn't possible via 1 power. It requires a specific set of powers and IO set combinations to achieve. Its MUCH more then just 1 power.

Nitpick, but since we're talking about what's possible and not it fits: look at the defensive set tier 9s. The base, unslotted defense is 45%. Yes, in one power.

 

They also last twice as long as the current version (180 sec) and have a recharge (1000 sec) that allows for a higher uptime than Rune, and provide additional effects (+recovery and run/jump speed or +maxhp). They're usually ignored because you hit 45% without them; IMO they should have flip-flopped the effects of the defense and resistance tier 9s so that resistance sets get +def and defense sets get +res, and then they would be (somewhat) useful.

 

To your point, those are tier 9s in armor sets which are only available to certain ATs that already don't need them, and we're looking at Rune of Protection which is available to any AT. Which also doesn't provide a base 30% resistance to all; at best it's 25% for 3 ATs (see below) and the next highest is 18.75%, which is only 30% once fully slotted.

 

4 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Blasters have the highest damage scalars for both melee and ranged attacks and are arguable the most squishy. Controllers deal double damage when something is mezzed. I'll give you Defenders and Corruptors, though they do have solo bonuses (30% damage for defenders, and Scourge for Corruptors)

 

They also have MUCH higher buff/debuff values. Except Blasters, who have the weakest.

 

AoE mezzes exist, kiting is a thing. Jousting is also a thing. Line of Sight tactics pretty much wreck the AI in City of Heroes so badly isn't not even funny. There are plenty of other ways to deal with Mez then popping an origin power pool and pretending you're a tank for 60-90 seconds.

Yeah... about that.

Defenders and Dominators share AT modifiers for mezzes, which are lower than Controllers.

Corruptors are lower for mez, but share many buff and debuff other modifers with Controllers.

Blasters get Stalker-level hit points and buff their damage better than anyone, including Defenders.

So it's not as cut-and-dried as that, and it's usually not much higher.

 

With regards to Rune of Protection, it uses the "Ranged_Res_Dmg" modifier - which is used by the Sonic and Thermal shields, so is one of those "buff values" - and Blasters (who get 16.25% base resistance) have the same modifier there as Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, slightly behind Tankers (18.75%), who are tied with nearly every other AT behind Arachnos Widows and Soldiers (they get the Defender number at 25%). Sentinels get the worst here at 12%, which is "much" worse.

 

[PirateCrew]

Thank you, Faultine.  The insight into the current process is appreciated, along with data on its uptake rate, and the care you're applying to comment on it.

 

 

If I try to boil down my thoughts on this thread to one sentence, I would say:

"The net nerf to RoP on beta may be too abrupt/severe in the context of the appeal and gameplay tradeoff cost of the rest of the origin pool(s), and the specific choice of how to nerf and buff it (-duration/+resist) may have missed important reasons for it use, in the broader context of CoH's Damage + Defense + Recharge build dominance."

 

 

Why would I say "may be too severe?"

The "Nerf Counterbalancing" a.k.a. mild buffing of the sorcery pool seems inadequate / incomplete / targeted at a single use case of RoP.

 

1) "Nerf Counterbalancing" to mystic flight (while nice) will not feel like compensation/balancing for a RoP nerf, when all other travel powers are buffed as well.

...As a real life example, should I feel good if my salary is reduced but I am given more time off? Maybe.  What if my co-workers also get more time off, with no salary loss?  No.

Thus, mystic flight buffs are much more naturally perceived as connected strongly to travel power buffs, and not at all to RoP's net nerf or Sorcery Pool rebalancing.  To achieve this perception, they'd need to go above and beyond other travel power buffs (e.g. mystic flight teleport cost eliminated, or a combat mode with lower end cost, +def, and tighter maneuvering like hover).

 

2) "Nerf Counterbalancing" by providing resist for reactive use (also a nice thought) as balancing the RoP duration reduction will only help those who used it reactively, and will only be noticed/desired to the degree (and in the situations) its resist buffs were central to their reason for taking RoP in the first place.

...Still using the example above, what if I already have sufficient time off from work, or if I would like more, but greatly prefer the salary as this area has a high cost of living?

 

3) I and others have suggestions that could rebalance the pool to any desired level of overall power, spread the power more evenly across the 5 powers, while also decoupling use cases like "more resist for a tough fight" or "my controller struggles against occasional mez and unlucky misses" or "I'd like to exemplar and absorb alpha strikes with a tough defender/corrupter build."  But we'd need to know those suggestions are actually wanted.  Unfortunately, "oh look, a nerf on beta" doesn't exactly say "let's talk about retuning, your input is valued."

 

 

Why would I say "may be too abrupt" and "may have missed important reasons for its use?"

Well, from a process standpoint, were I operating a server, I would tread extra lightly around adjusting powers and powersets that create nonstandard build options, even if seemingly overtuned, for three reasons:

 

First, they are the key to build diversity, the longevity of gameplay, and player retention.  Shall I build Meleer #50, using the tried and true Dmg+Def+Rech, to easily perform well across most content/situations, which has recently been rebalanced?  Shall I drift away to another game that offers a new challenge?  Or shall I seek that challenge by an experimental build here, like a toggle debuff defender?  Will the game's design give me tools to make that creative experience motivating, or will it frequently highlight flaws?

 

Second, they are likely to have passionate support with unusual or less understood "branching use cases" that I may not want to disturb yet.  The rarity of the power(s) alone could indicate that their potential for creative use is still being explored by the playerbase, and if tuning is required, could be handled best by small adjustments to several stats rather than a large adjustment to a single stat.  At a minimum I would desire feedback before proposing a single stat reduction, since this is highly likely to crush some use cases while leaving others untouched.

 

Last, I'd want the players to be as happy as possible, within the limits of operating a stable game with wide appeal.  I'd want to ensure nerfing is necessary given the state of the game as a whole, the context of powers that are competitors to the one under the microscope, a full consideration of what a player gives up to get the power in question, etc.  Human psychology has its place here - cushioning the impact of nerfs with buffs (that address real concerns), sharing data that justifies said nerfs, and by never hitting a below-average-popularity playstyle, while other playstyles are untouched or buffed to a dominant position.  For better or worse, unfairness and inconsistency are detectable by humans even at extremely low concentrations.

 

Essay complete, thanks for thinking about these things.  Obviously, a lot of us care a lot about them.

[BRADICAL]

12 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

Blasters have the highest damage scalars for both melee and ranged attacks and are arguable the most squishy. Controllers deal double damage when something is mezzed. I'll give you Defenders and Corruptors, though they do have solo bonuses (30% damage for defenders, and Scourge for Corruptors)

 

They also have MUCH higher buff/debuff values. Except Blasters, who have the weakest.

 

AoE mezzes exist, kiting is a thing. Jousting is also a thing. Line of Sight tactics pretty much wreck the AI in City of Heroes so badly isn't not even funny. There are plenty of other ways to deal with Mez then popping an origin power pool and pretending you're a tank for 60-90 seconds.

Squishy archetypes only begin to approach the damage output of melee archetypes when you factor in procs. Blasters are largely redundant, especially now that tanker AoE caps are at 16. Even the best controllers have poor AoE damage output, and if they aren't outright slowing things down, they're going slower by themselves than most other ATs trying to do the exact same thing.

This would all be justified, if the buffing/debuffing/controlling powers themselves had any actual meaning, but like I said before the game just doesn't work like that once you plug in set bonuses and incarnates. Unless you're playing at lower difficulty levels or forcing yourself to play in teams that only slot SOs, those powers are all a novelty at best.

There is simply no direct, equitable comparison to justify the status quo when you account for the disparity in power that the game allows you to build towards. That it is disproportionately in favor of the melee archetypes is a discussion prompted by this nerf to RoP, a statistically niche power itself that brings some measure of balance to the bigger picture here, but it's still terribly broken at its core.

 

20 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

That goes back to the "But What is Balance?" argument.

 

Do we balance around +4/x8? or not?

Balance isn't about whether +4/x8 is possible or not (it always is), it's about how easy it is to achieve that level of performance within the limitations of your archetype, powerset, set bonuses and incarnate powers. The game has encouraged this for a very long time now. Given that we have a pretty clear understanding of what everyone's defense, resistance, and recharge values tend to hover around in the end, it's impossible not to account for things like the overall efficacy of buff powers and the effect recharge has on their permanency.

But different archetypes operate on very different ends of the same system that is, for the most part, pushing them all towards the same goal. That is the problem.

[Arbegla]

7 minutes ago, siolfir said:

Nitpick, but since we're talking about what's possible and not it fits: look at the defensive set tier 9s. The base, unslotted defense is 45%. Yes, in one power.

 

They also last twice as long as the current version (180 sec) and have a recharge (1000 sec) that allows for a higher uptime than Rune, and provide additional effects (+recovery and run/jump speed or +maxhp). They're usually ignored because you hit 45% without them; IMO they should have flip-flopped the effects of the defense and resistance tier 9s so that resistance sets get +def and defense sets get +res, and then they would be (somewhat) useful.

 

To your point, those are tier 9s in armor sets which are only available to certain ATs that already don't need them, and we're looking at Rune of Protection which is available to any AT. Which also doesn't provide a base 30% resistance to all; at best it's 25% for 3 ATs (see below) and the next highest is 18.75%, which is only 30% once fully slotted.

 

Yeah... about that.

Defenders and Dominators share AT modifiers for mezzes, which are lower than Controllers.

Corruptors are lower for mez, but share many buff and debuff other modifers with Controllers.

Blasters get Stalker-level hit points and buff their damage better than anyone, including Defenders.

So it's not as cut-and-dried as that, and it's usually not much higher.

 

With regards to Rune of Protection, it uses the "Ranged_Res_Dmg" modifier - which is used by the Sonic and Thermal shields, so is one of those "buff values" - and Blasters (who get 16.25% base resistance) have the same modifier there as Brutes, Scrappers, Stalkers, slightly behind Tankers (18.75%), who are tied with nearly every other AT behind Arachnos Widows and Soldiers (they get the Defender number at 25%). Sentinels get the worst here at 12%, which is "much" worse.

 

 

Ok, you got me on the T9 defense powers, like Elude, and whatever /Nin gets. However, both of those powers have pretty nasty crashes, and RoP doesn't. Also, those are available at 32/38.

 

The resistance is affected by modifiers so you're right there as well. Though, even 16.25% resistance to all, (remember including Psi/Toxic) when enhanced can still get you to 25% resistance, so you're taking a lot less damage, from a power you can get at level 20.