Focused Feedback: Pool Powerset Revamp: Sorcery

[Carnifax]

46 minutes ago, Number Six said:

 

That would be a completely broken proc rate since it would calculate PPM based on a 10 second cycle but get to apply the resulting chance roll every 3 seconds. Irradiated Ground currently suffers from this problem.

 

EnToggleflame - once the issue with it not passing enhancements through to the pet at all was fixed - was designed in a way that procs should have a chance to fire per the normal 10 second toggle rule. The dropped patches do not apply procs once they're on the ground.

 

This seems accurate. Explains why my Parser is seeing them as "root level" procs rather than belonging to a pseudopet. I rolled an Ice/Traps/Earth/Teleport/Sorcery controller on Beta, slotted him up, logged a +0x8 Council Radio and parsed it and things don't seem that loopy with it. 

 

https://www.carnifax.org : UUID a0cbd14a-dbeb-4bfb-8b79-80932f43a6b8 and choose TechnoMage

 

The bit we're interested in is Javelin Volley.

 

I don't use Enflame but I can imagine this will annoy people. If we see more of these changes to Procs & Pseudopets I'll probably call it a day with Homecoming. Haven't spent ages making weird builds just to see them nerfed into the ground while Tanks get Stupid AoE Buffs and Blasters get nukes every 30 seconds. 

 

Edit : More Bugging Info. Spirit Ward drops every time you switch maps, whether it be a new map entirely or just jumping between floors. Annoying. 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Carnifax

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

And there was plenty of disagreement from people who actually use RoP. Just how many people do you think play this game that leads you to think the little handful of protestors constitutes some sort of consensus?

 

5%

[Arbegla]

14 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

I don't use Enflame but I can imagine this will annoy people. If we see more of these changes to Procs & Pseudopets I'll probably call it a day with Homecoming. Haven't spent ages making weird builds just to see them nerfed into the ground while Tanks get Stupid AoE Buffs and Blasters get nukes every 30 seconds. 

 

I mean, didn't Enflame not use procs very much at all before? So, this is more of a buff (even though its not a clone of the Rad Armor toggle..) the procs are at least working now.

[UberGuy]

Enhancements didn't transfer to the pets, so they did nothing for the damage patch. I suppose they may have procced on the main target if it was a foe - I really don't know. But it could not have functioned at all like it does now, if for no other reason than that actual damage enhancements work in it now.

Edited April 7, 2021 by UberGuy

[Carnifax]

Just now, Arbegla said:

I mean, didn't Enflame not use procs very much at all before? So, this is more of a buff (even though its not a clone of the Rad Armor toggle..) the procs are at least working now.

Yup I guess it's a boost so. I never used it before today either. Altogether Enflame with 3 procs is about 5% of my damage. 

 

Weird that they never transferred given they work just fine in other pets / pseudopets. 

 

[arcane]

25 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

5%

Think you might have hit quote on the wrong thing. This answer has nothing to do with anything I typed.

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Think you might have hit quote on the wrong thing. This answer has nothing to do with anything I typed.

 

Makes as much sense as nerfing a pool set selected at a 5% rate and expecting it to get selected more.  

[arcane]

Just now, Mezmera said:

 

Makes as much sense as nerfing a pool set selected at a 5% rate and expecting it to get selected more.  

I have already addressed the popularity issue several times in other posts and why popularity and effectiveness are not as strongly correlated as one might think. But that has nothing to do with the post you quoted which asks how a few protestors can constitute the level of consensus that demands GM reconsideration. 
 

I know I’ll be selecting Sorcery more often once these changes go live.

[Mezmera]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I have already addressed the popularity issue several times in other posts and why popularity and effectiveness are not as strongly correlated as one might think. But that has nothing to do with the post you quoted which asks how a few protestors can constitute the level of consensus that demands GM reconsideration. 
 

I know I’ll be selecting Sorcery more often once these changes go live.

 

Have at it, although it was greater in its prior form, so you're missing the boat.  I was just defending the logic of this change to Sorcery which most on one side can't grasp the other implications of.   

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Have at it, although it was greater in its prior form, so you're missing the boat.  I was just defending the logic of this change to Sorcery which most on one side can't grasp the other implications of.   

I assure you I already have several characters with the live versions of these powers.

[UberGuy]

29 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

Weird that they never transferred given they work just fine in other pets / pseudopets. 

 

Enhancement transference to created entities is a flag on the power that summons the pet. So while you're right that it's weird, it's understandable in that it's not automatic, and it would just take someone copy/pasting the wrong thing to get it set in a way it shouldn't have been. Don't forget that a ton of what even the Paragon Studios devs did was edit and create things using copy paste in tools no fancier than Excel or Notepad, and feeding that into automation that turned it into data in formats the game could use.

[ForeverLaxx]

10 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Have at it, although it was greater in its prior form, so you're missing the boat.  I was just defending the logic of this change to Sorcery which most on one side can't grasp the other implications of.   

He only supports the change because others hate it. He said so as much in a much earlier post in an earlier build where the planned nerf was arguably even worse. I'd move on, if I were you. Save your sanity, as they say, since he's not arguing in good faith anyhow.

 

The current nerfs to Rune of Protection are likely to go through. Why? Because someone on the dev team really wants to nerf it. It doesn't matter that it's demonstrably weaker than chasing Defense caps. It doesn't matter that it's becoming a glorified inspiration that requires 3 power picks, 1 pool, and an Origin Pool lockout. It doesn't matter that the only time it's even relevant as a defensive tool is when you can rotate it with other defensive cooldowns like Incarnates or armor T9s that aren't terrible (such as MoG). It doesn't matter than even when you're able to do this you still have stretches of time where you're completely vulnerable. It doesn't matter that it's more active mitigation and requires paying attention to. It doesn't matter that even when you go all-in on this build path, you're still functionally weaker defensively than if you had just picked up the Holy Trinity of Pool Powers and chased +Defense Globals.

 

It seems that City of Heroes does have its "Holy Trinity" after all, except it's called Speed, Fighting, and Leadership. Try to do anything else and even if it's not as good you'll be deemed overpowered if you sometimes get close.

 

Rune of Protection is functionally pointless now. I'll just carry breakfrees, at least until they're nerfed I guess.

[scottocamp]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

I have already addressed the popularity issue several times in other posts and why popularity and effectiveness are not as strongly correlated as one might think. But that has nothing to do with the post you quoted which asks how a few protestors can constitute the level of consensus that demands GM reconsideration. 
 

I know I’ll be selecting Sorcery more often once these changes go live.

 

Arcane - you have offered some theories about why no one chooses "mostly, perfectly functional" powers like Flurry or Aid Self.  Something along the lines of people choose Hasten and Weave out of habit without properly evaluating the powers or because people mindlessly over-value recharge and defense or something like that.   But just because you have "already addressed" the issue doesn't mean what you say is especially true.  I am inclined to think the CoH players are smarter than you believe and correctly choose powers they know are good and correctly avoid powers they know are weak.  So that there is indeed a very strong correlation between popularity and power value.  This was certainly one of the reasons offered for the Titan Weapon nerf - the unusual popularity of the set in comparison to other melee sets.  Odd to argue popularity matters for Titan Weapons but doesn't matter for RoP.

 

That all said - I appreciate the effort by the development team to overhaul the entire Sorcery pool.  I think that is the proper approach.  I'm not sure the changes are sufficient to make Sorcery any more desirable to choose, but maybe.  I would personally like to see Spirit Ward buff both the caster and the recipient.  Sort of a "mystical bond" kind of thing.  So that as long as you can maintain the toggled ward on the ally (given endurance, distance and other limitations) you can receive some direct benefit to your main character from choosing and making use of this power.  I think that would make the power rather unique.  I am fine with the buff mechanic to Arcane Bolt but also think it is odd that triggering non-attacks would cause the buff to proc.  I would honestly rather see the power increase substantially in damage based on the number of other Sorcery powers chosen (similar to how Cross Punch works).  I would also love to see Enflame made into a *really* good attack.  I think it is a fairly cool and amazing power conceptually and could be *extremely* fun.  Not sure it's really there yet though.  Maybe a larger static radius, maybe more damage, maybe an expanding radius the longer you can maintain the toggle, maybe sucking foes toward the enflamed person. not sure - just seems to need something more to push it into a place where folks are really tempted to use it on a number of builds.  Right now Enflame seems sort of cool but not really all that tempting to use.  But Enflame could certainly be the star of Sorcery with a few tweeks.  A fun and crazy attack power makes the whole game a lot more enjoyable in my opinion.  And it would make the nerf to RoP less painful.  I think RoP as a frequently available enhanced Break Free is not too shabby - but I would also love to see the RoP duration extended slightly based on the number of Sorcery powers chosen.  So that investing in 4 or 5 Sorcery powers could get the duration up to 50% of the time.  The goal should be to get a player invested in Sorcery as a sort of Tertiary complement to the Primary and Secondary power sets.   Making a power like Enflame a superstar (like Fold Space) would encourage folks to buy into Sorcery rather than just cherry-picking Pool Powers. 

 

I believe the effort here is solid.  Just need some more love for Spirit Ward and Enflame to make this a home run.

 

Thanks for listening to our concerns!!

[Bionic_Flea]

Re: Spirit Ward.  It's pretty dang strong.  You get 10 ticks of 23ish absorb over 15 seconds and if you detoggle it decays at the same speed.  With just one heal SO my pet had over 300 absorb HP, or a little less than a third of his total HPs.  I may actually have to dedicate slots to this now!

 

[Arbegla]

15 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Re: Spirit Ward.  It's pretty dang strong.  You get 10 ticks of 23ish absorb over 15 seconds and if you detoggle it decays at the same speed.  With just one heal SO my pet had over 300 absorb HP, or a little less than a third of his total HPs.  I may actually have to dedicate slots to this now!

 

 

Now Frankenslot it with some Heal/End IOs, and see how nice it is. I really think Spirit Ward, as the toggle, can turn into a very nice 'I'm going to keep this pet/tank/squishy/hostage/NPC idiot' alive power. For Any AT 😄

[Coyotedancer]

20 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Re: Spirit Ward.  It's pretty dang strong.  You get 10 ticks of 23ish absorb over 15 seconds and if you detoggle it decays at the same speed.  With just one heal SO my pet had over 300 absorb HP, or a little less than a third of his total HPs.  I may actually have to dedicate slots to this now!

 

 

I'm still iffy on the leash issue, personally... How that plays out using it on other player characters, anyway. For pets it'll likely work out fine, but the way other players bounce off around corners and across the map, keeping them in range may be a little dicey. Also, while no trouble to maintain on a finished 50+ WIllpower character, the END cost might feel fiercer at low to mid level on a character without a complete build. I can't really test that myself with Shonokin, but hopefully someone who has it on a lowbie can transfer them over and give it a try.

 

Arcane Bolt I actually like. I have it on Shonokin as a filler attack, and it works just fine for that now. Admittedly the stacking coming from ALL THE THINGS is kind of wierd... But not so strange as to be badwrong.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2021 by Coyotedancer

[Captain Powerhouse]

4 hours ago, aethereal said:

With each drop of the patch (which is a pseudopet), it will have a chance to re-activate procs, with an effective 10 second recharge time, and the appropriate area factor, per target.

 

Enflame wont be doing that. The power was implemented in such a way that the pets would not bypass the 10s recharge timer by resetting it on every pet summon. The pet itself is incapable of applying procs, the procs are applied by the Enflame Toggle itself.

 

Edit: I see Number Six already beat me to this explanation.

[Carnifax]

3 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Enflame wont be doing that. The power was implemented in such a way that the pets would not bypass the 10s recharge timer by resetting it on every pet summon. The pet itself is incapable of applying procs, the procs are applied by the Enflame Toggle itself.

Yup. That explains my log parsings too, the procs are attached to the root power, not its subpowers / pets. 

 

As an aside it'd be lovely if all Procs logged with their power like 

2021-04-07 14:41:00 Enflame:  You hit Nerva Spectral Daemon Lord with your Positron's Blast: Chance for Energy Damage for 72.9 points of Energy damage.

 

for my parser (note there's two spaces between the : and 'you'. That puzzled me for about 30 mins over the weekend)
 

[Captain Powerhouse]

 

2 hours ago, Carnifax said:

I don't use Enflame but I can imagine this will annoy people. If we see more of these changes to Procs & Pseudopets I'll probably call it a day with Homecoming. Haven't spent ages making weird builds just to see them nerfed into the ground while Tanks get Stupid AoE Buffs and Blasters get nukes every 30 seconds. 

 

Enflame pet did not proc at all before. That said there is only one other power that has this behavior, and it will be seeing the same treatment on page 3.

[Arbegla]

9 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

 

Enflame pet did not proc at all before. That said there is only one other power that has this behavior, and it will be seeing the same treatment on page 3.

 

Nerf to Irradiated Ground confirmed.

[Rejolt]

12 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Nerf to Irradiated Ground confirmed.

/Sweats in Stalker Lightning Rod and Shield Charge

[Haijinx]

19 hours ago, arcane said:

I don't think we can really say Sorcery is getting nerfed anymore. Did you read the new patch notes above?

The set itself is pretty versatile now

 

Flight+teleport power

 

A low level blast 

 

A debuff toggle 

 

A mini T9 / break free with 30% uptime

 

I think though some are attached to how it is now.  If this had been the originally released set (assuming balance stuff) it probably would have been well received 

[arcane]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

He only supports the change because others hate it. He said so as much in a much earlier post in an earlier build where the planned nerf was arguably even worse. I'd move on, if I were you. Save your sanity, as they say, since he's not arguing in good faith anyhow.

I said no such thing and yet you’ve repeated this lie multiple times. Please cease and desist.

 

I think the words you’re twisting are the ones where I stated that I was more in favor of the change after reading the various arguments, but ofc that doesn’t equate to this slimy little smear you’re doing here. I’d move on, if I were you.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, scottocamp said:

 

Arcane - you have offered some theories about why no one chooses "mostly, perfectly functional" powers like Flurry or Aid Self. 

I stopped reading here since we’re already in the realm of misinformation. I have not and would never call Flurry perfectly functional in the current meta. Aid Self is pretty damn powerful nowadays though, so you got me there.

[Troo]

5 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

What combo mechanic was added?

 

I realize some dislike the term 'combo mechanic'. It is what it is.

Don't get me started on the now obvious exploit to trigger this latest combo mechanic.