Speed Pool ideas

[EmperorSteele]

So with all the work going into travel powers and some pool sets, I thought it'd be fun to imagine what the devs might do next!

 

I figured I'd look at the speed pool. Aside from a single outlier, it's... meh. Flurry is a low damage attack that takes too long to animate, Whirlwind is an annoying end hog, and Burnout... do many people take that? Superspeed is all right, and is getting some needed love with the upcoming issue. And then there's Hasten...

 

It's no secret that Hasten is very powerful. A T1 pick that gives 70% recharge with a long cool down and an end crash. Lots of people take it, and often build around eliminating the cooldown and End crash. It needs to be looked at.

 

I would get rid of Burnout, and give Speed a new T1 power: Vibrate Molecules. This is a defense toggle in the vein of Combat Jumping, except it also gives bonus defense when you're actively moving. Basically, your speed allows you to dodge and vibrate through some attacks.

 

This would bump Hasten down to T3, thus forcing you to take another Speed power first. I think this is a small price to pay for what it arguably one of the best powers in the game.

 

They could do other things if they were feeling evil. Lower the recharge bonus a little, add an endurance cost penalty to all powers while active, or heck, maybe just cut the recharge bonus in half but make it an auto power that requires no slotting.

 

However, I think adding a defense toggle to the pool is a fair trade for having to pick a power first, so any other nerfs would be unnecessary.

 

Though I guess then people would be all "why take any other pools?". Well, maybe don't give Speed a monopoly on recharge bonuses. Find other powers in other sets and spread the love! Have Evasive Maneuvers give +25%, have Infiltration give 20%, maybe have each power in the Presence Pool give +10% just for taking it and let it stack; I dunno!

[MTeague]

Whirlwind, and all similar powers (Kinetics/Repel, SonicResonance/SonicRepulsion, ForceField/RepulsionField, etc), I would like to see changed.

• currently, they're toggles, low maintence cost, but highly unappealing endurance cost per affected mob.
• I get that the extra cost is prevent you from holding entire spawns helpless and chain-ragdolled into a corner as you murdalize them. I agree that some way to prevent you from doing that to every spawn on an entire map is necessary.
• I would like to see, ZERO cost per affected mob, but, have the toggle forcibly deactivate after X seconds (like P2W jump packs, or some intangible powers), and then enter an enforced cooldown period.  I believe this would prevent the power from being rampantly abused, but would allow it to be used as an "oh crap!" cooldown without having to fear that if you misjudge it, you'll be burned out of END and helpless and surrounded.

 

[BLVD]

IMO, defense is much more thematically paired to speed than it is to leaping. I wouldn't mind seeing flurry get a parry-styled +def bonus. I think I've only seen whirlwind used once.. and that was being cheesy with KB->KD and FF +recharge. I also wouldn't mind seeing that power swapped with something like the new Evasive Maneuvers. 

 

I would be 100% against removing burnout though. I don't use it much, but when I do, it's awesome. You can't let us have double gang wars or back-to-back nukes and then take it away! 

[Steampunkette]

@EmperorSteele I'm not behind a lot of your suggestions, here... but the idea of making alternatives to Hasten -is- fairly attractive, now that you bring it up.

 

Specifically the idea of doing different "Forms" of Hasten with different values and stuff.

 

Like a Power Pool with a 20% Recharge Rate Buff Autopower. And a different Power Pool with a 50% Recharge Rate Buff Toggle.

 

Make them all mutually exclusive... and suddenly you've got some interesting options for different ways to put recharge into a build. Maybe someone who wants Permadom or PermaLightform can use the Autopower version to free up their auto-firing power. Or the Toggle. And then build to deal with end costs.

 

Could increase options going forward.

[Zeraphia]

I'm sorry but no... I wouldn't prefer a defensive speed power like SJ/Hover. I like Burnout, it is a unique utility and it makes things like double Gang War possible and creates interesting build possibilities. For that reason, I must say I just don't care for these ideas and like Speed as is, nor do I feel it needs any buffs, I think Speed is probably the best power pool overall for me and virtually every character I make takes Speed mostly for SS even besides Hasten.

 

I'm sorry, I'm just going to have to say no. 😞

[Monos King]

Big no to getting rid of burnout, doing that would be like consider quitting server degree of bad decisions.

 

Yay to brainstorming ideas for speed pool though.

[Andreah]

I understand the desire to revise a lack-luster pool, but if you mess with hasten, I hope you have good torch & pitchfork insurance.

 

Look at how the other pools have been revised. If a character went into the change with a certain set of capabilities, by and large they did not come out without them, even if they chose not to respec. The individual powers have not been severely nerfed, and certainly not in ways that would hit large numbers of carefully tuned builds.

 

I believe there are a large number of build that have at their core, taking only one power from the speed pool - Hasten; and those builds depend on it delivering its current amount of recharge and having its duration and recharge period be what they are now.

[Andreah]

18 hours ago, MTeague said:

Whirlwind, and all similar powers (Kinetics/Repel, SonicResonance/SonicRepulsion, ForceField/RepulsionField, etc), I would like to see changed.

 

I like Kinetics/Repel the way it is now, thank you. I've built my kineticists to be able to sustain that toggle, with it converted to knockdown, even while I'm in the middle of large crowds of mobs. 

 

I don't believe Speed Pool/Whirlwind is taken often, and perhaps it could be used as a trial balloon for the sorts of changes you'd like to see; but not reach out and hit all these powers at the same time. I could see there being another topic to discuss changing all the repelling powers as a group.

[SeraphimKensai]

Moving hasten sounds like you're trying to jump into a lion's den knowing full well you won't make it out.

 

Burnout is cool as was previously stated for double gangwars otherwise doesn't get too much usage.

 

Whirlwind is arguably my favorite non travel power in the whole set. Every PvPer in the game used to have this power because it overrode attack animations allowing you to get your attacks off faster. That was patched, then the power largely went away until IO's. As someone said above it's a gem with a KB to KD proc and a FF: recharge proc. I just wish the end cost was a little lower.

 

Flurry. Here you go if you want to modify a power choice, here's the one. It has a huge time commitment for an animation and lackluster damage, narrow cone.

[Andreah]

Just now, SeraphimKensai said:

Flurry. Here you go if you want to modify a power choice, here's the one. It has a huge time commitment for an animation and lackluster damage, narrow cone.

It might be interesting if Flurry had some explicit synergies with the other powers. For example, Flurry out of Whirlwind did double damage, or built up a stacking damage or to-hit buff, or increased the magnitude of its disorient, or even splashed damage to close nearby foes.

[Apparition]

From reading the tea leaves, I'm pretty sure that the developers have no intention of touching Hasten.   The reaction by the player base to any change to Hasten would make the reaction to the Global Defense Nerf fifteen years ago seem like a wet firecracker in comparison, and unlike back then there are other alternatives to go to.  Instead, they plan on changing little things here and there to make Hasten seem less desirable and make it seen as less necessary.  See: Rune of Protection.

[EmperorSteele]

3 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

Nope 5.

 

 

As well-constructed as your other counterarguments were, I'm a little perplexed by this one. You clearly love Hasten as-is, so why would you be against other powers providing alternative +Recharge bonuses?

[dangeraaron10]

Let's not do any of this.

 

Maybe something with Flurry but other than that Speed is fine as is.  Any nerfs or meddling with Hasten would wreck countless builds.  Making it baseline would tick off the folks that don't want more power creep.  Making mutually exclusive alternatives would be ignored while most try for perma or near perma Hasten since it gives you the most recharge for power and slot picks.

 

Hasten as it is is here to stay.  "The only winning move is not to play" in terms of adjusting Hasten or recharge in general.

[SeraphimKensai]

7 hours ago, Andreah said:

It might be interesting if Flurry had some explicit synergies with the other powers. For example, Flurry out of Whirlwind did double damage, or built up a stacking damage or to-hit buff, or increased the magnitude of its disorient, or even splashed damage to close nearby foes.

I guess you could change it to a punch that exponentially builds up damage based on how much of a "Mach Charge" that character has. So in a sense using superspeed would build up "Mach Charges" over a short time and using the revised Flurry, renamed Mach Punch would burn the Mach Charges when used. They would stack up to 5x, and each stack would add 33% damage on top of  the base damage of Mach Punch. So at Mach 5, it hits like Knockout Blow, and at no stacks it hits a little weaker than Punch from fighting.

[Monos King]

If Whirlwind was to toss enemies up in the air though...

[Turric]

Well counter to what most other people have written, I think the Vibrate Molecules is a great idea!

 

I am not against small changes to Hasten, or perhaps dividing it up over several powers. Or in some fashion removing its need to be on auto-cast. But I understand this is a delicate subject. My dominators especially would look really long and hard at any changes.

 

What is the point of Super Speed and Speed of Sound? That was just poor planning there. (This post is about Speed, so I digress, the problem being Speed of Sound)

 

 

To put this into perspective: I have 41 characters at 50, all with complete IO builds. I use Hasten in 29 of them. I have Flurry on exactly 0. I have Burnout on 1. I had Whirlwind on 1 but then respecced out because, while it was funny at first, it became annoying to me and really doesn't do anything very helpful.

[Grindingsucks]

Can't nerf hasten.  Too many power-gamers (most of the player base) would have an apoplexy.  I really like SeraphimKensai's suggestion about building "mach points" to boost other powers in the set.  Cool concept.  The vibration power idea is cool too, but somewhat built into the new superspeed updates already, with the semi-intangibility thing.

 

But, yeah- hasten really does need a nerf.  Since that won't fly, I suggest boosting all mob recharge rates by 50%,  😁

[AngryJesusMan]

The biggest benefits, IMHO, that I've seen in this thread are:

1. Hasten needs some rivals in other powersets so that Hasten isn't an automatic go-to power for most power-gamer builds.
2. Flurry is seriously lackluster and either requires rebalancing or replacing. 

I'm personally a fan of changing things that 1) never or very rarely get used, or 2) absolutely must be used unless you're specifically ignoring mechanical superiority. Alternatives to a mechanical must-have are a fair compromise.

 

Having a defensive power as part of a Speed pool, from a design standpoint, seems like a no-brainer from my perspective, but the original devs went a different route and the Homecoming devs seemingly haven't found enough reason or inspiration to deviate from that vision. The theme for Flurry is sound, but poorly executed and simply needs to be adjusted if it's going to be considered worthy of inclusion in most character builds.