issue 27 [Beta] Patch Notes for April 24th, 2021

[AurianArchive]

6 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

For those dissatisfied with the normalization of the Crit chances: are there additional ways to normalize the sets in question (KM specifically, apparently) to help make it competitive without relying on a single power working much better than it probably should?

 

No. 

 

Look. 

 

If you really want me to go into the history on this, I will, but Geko and subsequent powers "Blew it" on multiple aspects of design. We can discuss how the "power" gap between some blaster sets alone is greater than the entire difference between AT's, or lack of design consistency for hours on end without achieving anything. We can discuss at length how average S/L damage was increased over Elemental Damage, to the point that outside of the Lamba Incarnate Trial and a specific resist hole, there's no in-game benefit to rocking elemental weakeness's against ANY opponent at all as elemental damages do the same amount of damage against WEAK targets as S/L does regardless. We can discuss endlessly how secondary effects that don't work to stop enemies [endurance modification] were used as justification for aggressively low damage (pretty much every electrical attack ever).

 

Kinetic Melee is a set that cannot be [Normalized] on stalker's simply due to the fact that the stalker set was designed AROUND that gimmick. 

 

Trying to "Fix" an intentional design implementation made to bring an under-performing set up to performing just tells me who-ever is managing the powers needs to take a 10 minute break and have a longer chat with me first. 

 

Now, if you actually are interested in fixing Kinetic Melee as a whole, let me go over the THIS IS HOW YOU DO IT once again. 

 

On non-stalker, turn [Power Siphon] into an SO-origin perma-capable toggle/click, convert the knockback on repulsing torrent to a [Knock Towards The Player], and add an Incarnate-Interface proc that applies extra single target damage to Scrappers and an extra splash damage to Tank/Brute's. Job done.

 

As it stands, the Stalker Version is exactly what it should be. A top-tier attack set enhanced by Stalker ATO's. 

 

Let me phrase this another way:

 

KINETIC MELEE ON A STALKER IS HOW EVERY SINGLE OTHER STALKER SHOULD BE DESIGNED. 

 

You do not, repeat, DO NOT normalize Stalker's Kinetic Melee to other sets.

 

You modify OTHER SETS to have a stand-out gimmick feature that clearly separates the Stalker set from the NON-Stalker Sets. 

 

Really. Not that hard. 

 

Knock The Normalization Off, you don't understand what you are doing.

[Replacement]

While KM needs a lot of general maintenance (animation shaving, basic mechanical interaction type stuff), I would like to see the option explored to replace Siphon Power's +damage replaced with a mag-stacking chance for additional damage.  This would lead into a way to provide Stalkers a version of that mechanism, despite having a simple Build Up -- such as 100% for additional "siphon" proc on Burst when Hidden. 

Would allow us to normalize the crit rules back to what the Inherent says they are, but give us a framework to provide existing Stalkers a shade of what they're expecting right now.

[macskull]

1 minute ago, AurianArchive said:

We can discuss at length how average S/L damage was increased over Elemental Damage

Unrelated but I am curious what you are getting at here as S/L attacks still follow the same standard damage formula as non-S/L attacks.

[Replacement]

2 minutes ago, AurianArchive said:

Kinetic Melee is a set that cannot be [Normalized] on stalker's simply due to the fact that the stalker set was designed AROUND that gimmick. 

 

Trying to "Fix" an intentional design implementation made to bring an under-performing set up to performing just tells me who-ever is managing the powers needs to take a 10 minute break and have a longer chat with me first. 

Well that's just wrong.  You will need to provide evidence on that if you want to make such a claim.

 

And tone down the aggro while you're at it.  You're yelling at the help.

[Glacier Peak]

I've looked at the patch notes. Now I will go to beta to test these changes before I provide any quantitative feedback. 

 

37 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

For those dissatisfied with the normalization of the Crit chances: are there additional ways to normalize the sets in question (KM specifically, apparently) to help make it competitive without relying on a single power working much better than it probably should?

 

Subjectively though, I value balance over outliers. Bringing a power set in line with its competitor sets is more important to me than having one or two superior sets for an archetype. 

 

Edit: For @ScarySai with your confused emote, I was replying to GM_Imprevium's query.

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Glacier Peak
It appears the quote wasn't included in the post.

[flip]

2 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I've looked at the patch notes. Now I will go to beta to test these changes before I provide any quantitative feedback. 

 

Subjectively though, I value balance over outliers. Bringing a power set in line with its competitor sets is more important to me than having one or two superior sets for an archetype. 

KM isn't an outlier in terms of overall performance. KM is okay on stalkers, but it's not top tier. nerfing it not only removes its unique mechanic but makes the overall state of stalker primaries less balanced.

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, flip said:

KM isn't an outlier in terms of overall performance. KM is okay on stalkers, but it's not top tier. nerfing it not only removes its unique mechanic but makes the overall state of stalker primaries less balanced.

I didn't say KM was an outlier. Thanks for the reply.

[flip]

1 minute ago, Glacier Peak said:

I didn't say KM was an outlier. Thanks for the reply.

given the discussion of this thread and the fact that no other set saw a significant pve adjustment, i jumped the gun assumed that you were referring to KM specifically. apologies for misconstruing that.

[macskull]

7 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Subjectively though, I value balance over outliers. Bringing a power set in line with its competitor sets is more important to me than having one or two superior sets for an archetype. 

It is possible to have a set be balanced against other sets while still having something unique about powers within that set. Regardless, this change accomplishes the opposite of bringing the set into balance.

Edited April 25, 2021 by macskull

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, macskull said:

It is possible to have a set be balanced against other sets while still having something unique about powers within that set. Regardless, this change accomplishes the opposite of bringing the set into balance.

Yes, that is the distinction I have seen after reading the patch notes for the KM change, but I plan on testing the set before I make any quantitative feedback known. Again though, I am speaking broadly of power changes, not specifically about the KM change. 

[ScarySai]

The power hardly overperforms even with the extra crit, so I would not call it a balance issue unless we were talking about how the change hits an already hurting set.

 

@Glacier Peak You seemed to imply otherwise with your wording and the topic at hand, but if you're being sincere, good to know.

[Glacier Peak]

1 minute ago, ScarySai said:

The power hardly overperforms even with the extra crit, so I would not call it a balance issue unless we were talking about how the change hits an already hurting set.

 

@Glacier Peak You seemed to imply otherwise with your wording and the topic at hand, but if you're being sincere, good to know.

Sure thing. I had hoped by prefacing the post with the fact that I hadn't yet tested these changes and was simply reading patch notes was enough implication. 

[Signalrunner]

9 minutes ago, GM Impervium said:

For those dissatisfied with the normalization of the Crit chances: are there additional ways to normalize the sets in question (KM specifically, apparently) to help make it competitive without relying on a single power working much better than it probably should?

 

Besides adjusting the damage/recharge values via standard dmg formula like Bopper suggested, lowering the cast time and/or increasing the radius of Burst would be a start.

[Glacier Peak]

Quote

New Prestige Powers

•  Only Affect Self
  • Activating this power prevents you from attacking foes or aiding allies - all powers will only affect yourself
  • If you are attacked, this power will suppress, allowing you to fight back
•  Disable All Powers
  • Activating this power will stop all your powers and set bonuses from working
• Both of these powers can be acquired from the P2W vendor in the Prestige Utility category for zero cost

 

Just a heads up, for the Disable All Powers Prestige Power, the toggle does not prohibit the following powers being active:

• Holiday Spirit Temporary Power
• Walk
• Flames of Prometheus
• Archetype Inherent Powers
• The four stat boosting accolades (+HP/+End, +End, +HP) and the Architect Entertainment Comlink
• Prestige Power Summon Pet (Tested with Blue Wisp)

This was not an exhaustive test of powers, just what happened to be on one of my test characters. Thought it was worth mentioning though!

 

Quote

Flight / Peacebringer

•  Evasive Maneuvers and  Quantum Maneuvers
  • Defence will no longer suppress upon activating any power
    • Defence will now suppress on all attacks, including pseudopet attacks
•  Group Fly
  • This power should now acknowledge the owner having the Disallow Group Fly option from Null the Gull enabled

 

Evasive Maneuvers defense suppression is working as described (Yippee!!) 

 

Disallowing Group Fly via Null the Gull works to the extent that it does not allow the effects of the power to apply to the caster. If that was the intention, it was successful. Anecdotally, the caster can still activate the power.

 

Spoiler

 

****Related Bug: Respecing out of Flight or Mystic Flight while the power is active will keep the player in flight until zoning. 

 

Quote

Power Tray Locking

• Add the ability to lock tray numbers, which removes the little arrows from power trays (both regular and floating)
  • Trays can still be changed using commands, binds, and macros
• This option can be adjusted with /optionset LockTrayNumbers 1 or 0, or it can be found in the Windows tab of the options menu
• Right-clicking on a power tray (both regular and floating) now includes "Lock Tray Numbers" and "Lock Powers in Trays" shortcuts

 

Anecdotal feedback - great feature! I am no longer accidentally clicking then dragging a power when I mean to just activate it when the Powers In Tray is Locked. Works well!

 

Quote

Sprint / Run / Jump Invention Sets

• Added two new IO set categories: Running and Sprints and Leaping and Sprints
• Quickfoot and Celerity are now in the Running and Sprints category
• Unbounded Leap and Springfoot are now in the Leaping and Sprints category
• All Sprint powers no longer accept Running and Leaping sets, instead they accept Running and Sprints and Leaping and Sprints sets
• All powers which accept Running sets also accept Running and Sprints sets
• All powers which accept Leaping sets also accept Leaping and Sprints sets
• Running and Sprint sets share an Enhancement Converter bucket with Running sets
• Leaping and Sprint sets share an Enhancement Converter bucket with Leaping sets
• TL;DR: This has no impact on existing slotting, builds or conversion, we've made this change in order to be able to introduce new Running and Leaping sets in the future without having to balance them around them being slotted in Sprint

 

Nothing to test here really, I see them correctly labeled in my builds and on the Auction House. This begs the question though, will Fly and Teleport sets also get a dual-hatted set? Will Universal Travel IO sets be moot? 

 

Quote

Powers Bug Fixes

• Pool > Speed > Super Speed: Fixed this power sometimes preventing you from picking new powers when levelling up
• Pool > Teleportation > Teleport (+Shadow Step): Fixed these powers occasionally failing to activate if you had a non-combat NPC targeted
• Pool > Flight > Afterburner: Fixed the color palette on the Minimal FX theme for this power
• Pool > Leaping > Super Jump: Now correctly refers to Double Jump instead of High Jump
• Inherent > Rest: You can no longer walk very slowly while resting with a weapon drawn
• Inherent > Stance > Slide: This stance will no longer interrupt flight stances
• Prestige Utility > Reveal: Fixed this power not being usable in PvP zones
• Temporary Powers: Fixed several Halloween costume powers still being mutually exclusive with stealth powers
• Trick Arrow > EMP Arrow: Fixed an issue where the EMP Field left by this power would be colored white when picking No Redraw theme, instead of matching the other fx in the power
• Controller > Darkness Affinity > Fade: Fixed this power causing characters to constantly flicker
• Controller > Illusion > Spectral Terror: ToHit debuff enhancements should now work in this power
• Stalker > Dual Blades > Ablating Strike: Fixed a bug where this power would not apply AoE knockdown on combo completion
• Stalker > Dual Blades > Sweeping Strike: PvP Hide Crit changed from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Ice Melee > Ice Sword: Fixed minor scale discrepancy in PvP hidden crit (scale changed from 1.5713 to 1.571)
• Stalker > Ninja Blade > Flashing Steel: PvP non-hide crit increased from 5% to 20%
• Stalker > Ninja Blade > Dragonfly: PvP non-hide crit increased from 5% to 20%
• Stalker > Spines > Spine Burst: PvP hide crit decreased from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Spines > Ripper: PvP hide crit decreased from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Spines > Throw Spines: PvP hide crit decreased from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Street Justice > Spinning Strike: PvE crit scale increased from scale 1.5368 to 1.54
• Stalker > Electrical Melee > Jacobs Ladder: PvP Hide Crit changed from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Electrical Melee > Thunder Strike: (Splash Damage only) PvP Non-Hide/Held/Slept Crit changed from 10% to 20%
• Stalker > Fiery Melee > Breath of Fire: PvP Hide Crit changed from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Fiery Melee > Fire Sword Circle: PvP Hide Crit changed from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Kinetic Melee > Burst: PvE Hide Crit changed from 100% to 50%
• Stalker > Savage Melee > Shred: PvP Hide Crit changed from 100% to 50%

 

Reveal was tested and works in all four PvP zones.

 

Tested Stealth successfully in conjunction with the following Costume Temporary Powers:

Spoiler

• Permanent Rulu-Shin Costume
• Banished Pantheon Shaman Costume
• Carnival Harlequin Costume
• Carnival Strongman Costume
• Consortium Guard Costume
• Coralax Minion Costume
• Council Galaxy Costume
• Council Penumbra Costume
• Crey Agent Costume
• Crey Powersuit Costume
• Crey Security Costume
• Freakshow Boss Costume
• Freakshow Stunner Costume
• Goldbricker Costume
• Hellion Thug Costume
• Knives of Artemis Costume
• Legacy Chain Costume
• Lost Costume
• Malta Gunslinger Costume
• Malta Operative Costume
• Nemesis Solider Costume
• Outcast Thug Costume
• Paragon Protector Costume
• Pirate Costume
• PPD Cop Costume
• PPD Hardsuit Costume
• PPD SWAT Officer Costume
• Scrapyarder Costume
• Skulls Thug Costume
• Skyraiders Costume
• Troll Costume
• Tsoo Inkman Costume
• Vahzilok Eidolon Costume
• Warriors Thug Costume

 

I used every costume available from Annah in Croatoa to test.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Faultline
Deleting attachments per request.

[Katharos]

I'd rather KM still have the 100% crit chance. But if you're going to twist my arm about it, the tiny radius (eight!) and long activation time (2.67s!) need improvement, and maybe some extra dot damage on top. I like KM's animations broadly, even the slow ones, but not the animation times. Fire sword circle has a radius of 10 and the same cast time for more damage, and an exotic damage type at that. Ice melee has a radius of 10 and a cast time of 2.1s for more damage. Psi melee, mass levitate, 2.5 cast time, 10 radius, more damage, exotic damage type. It's hard to be sure about rending flurry's deal because the blood frenzy minigame, like most minigames, isn't transparent, but it looks like it has a radius of 15 (variable), a cast time of 2.17 (not variable) and higher damage (variable.) And even then, almost all of those powers come from sets that have more than 1 AOE to their name. If it doesn't hit every enemy in a group, you can move onto the next AOE.

 

A bit worried listing off raw numbers might invoke nerfs... 

If I had to say my biggest and most unreasonable wish, I want the set to have a second AOE. That said, I don't even want repulsing torrent on non-stalker ATs. It's a cool idea conceptually, sort of like claw's shockwave which is a legitimately cool and interesting and good power since the introduction of IOs. I like the random ranged attacks in melee sets almost as much as I like the random pbaoes in ranged sets. In execution, though, it's a disaster. A 2 second cast time with an arc of 45 degrees and a need to pay the knockback tax does not compare to shockwave, which has a 90 degree arc, a 1 second cast time for identical damage. It doesn't. It's almost a mix between shockwave and breath of fire, really, except it took the worst of both instead of the best.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Katharos

[zenblack]

I feel that this is a direction that the HC dev team is taking. There have been a slew of changes that have a negative impact on the current while being said that "WHEN we do a balance pass on this set, then maybe we'll look at changing X". I don't like this. If you want to maximize your time and do sweeping changes only (getting away from cherry picking for example) you need to consider the amount of time it will take for you to get to that balance pass. If it's not breaking anything it is far, far better to keep the current balance consideration for things that are not negative changes and wait until you do the balance pass to put them in line with where you want them. HC has proven they can revamp sets to be much better (in gameplay as well as upgrading their power if it lacks) but it requires time investment (for animations in particular). Don't tax the player-base because there is a time consideration. Please.

[ForeverLaxx]

1 hour ago, GM Impervium said:

are there additional ways to normalize the sets in question

It's wording like this that contributes to the sentiment that once the devs intend to nerf/adjust something, it's already a done deal. "Additional Ways" says, to me, that this change to KM is happening no matter what because it "must" change, but that maybe it can be "balanced/softened" if additional changes elsewhere are made to the set to cause the nerf to sting less.

 

Is it any wonder that I, and many others, believe that once something hits Open Beta Testing that it's no longer up for debate that an amputation is being made, but rather, that all we're doing is negotiating how far up the leg we amputate?

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, ForeverLaxx said:

It's wording like this that contributes to the sentiment that once the devs intend to nerf/adjust something, it's already a done deal. "Additional Ways" says, to me, that this change to KM is happening no matter what because it "must" change, but that maybe it can be "balanced/softened" if additional changes elsewhere are made to the set to cause the nerf to sting less.

 

Is it any wonder that I, and many others, believe that once something hits Open Beta Testing that it's no longer up for debate that an amputation is being made, but rather, that all we're doing is negotiating how far up the leg we amputate?

Or.. perhaps the GAME MASTER GM_Impervium was steering the conversation on this thread towards something where players and developers come to an amicable solution. 

[Machariel]

2 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

For those dissatisfied with the normalization of the Crit chances: are there additional ways to normalize the sets in question (KM specifically, apparently) to help make it competitive without relying on a single power working much better than it probably should?

the real question to me is why should it be normalized to begin with - what's wrong with saying "AoE attacks have a 50% crit chance out of hide, except for Burst" ?

burst isn't a great power on its own - small radius, long cast time, pretty weak damage - so against small numbers of enemies KM is better off not using it and using its very fast attacks to cycle through targets one at a time.  but the auto-crit + pbaoe means that when KM is surrounded it can go AS -> hide proc -> burst which is a super cool trick and sometimes very useful.

 

stalker KM doesn't rely on burst to be competitive... it relies on having a tight attack chain that maximizes the number of times you can smash that [redacted] sec assassin's strike button.  burst is really there for convenience and auto crit burst on low level x8 TFs is an absolute godsend.  but at higher levels it starts being less relevant as other aoe is way better and you're probably using the hide proc to get a critical Zapp or Moonbeam instead of tying yourself up for 3 seconds making whoosh noises.

 

honestly I don't think KM needs any help at all, it's good enough at level 50 and certainly not one of the lowest performers and the fact that it comes into its own with its good attacks by level 18 makes it a very smooth leveling experience. 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Machariel

[macskull]

57 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Disallowing Group Fly via Null the Gull works to the extent that it does not allow the effects of the power to apply to the caster. If that was the intention, it was successful. Anecdotally, the caster can still activate the power.

This is identical to how other caster-affecting movement buffs operate (Inertial Reduction, Accelerate Metabolism, etc.) so this seems like WAI.

1 minute ago, ForeverLaxx said:

It's wording like this that contributes to the sentiment that once the devs intend to nerf/adjust something, it's already a done deal. "Additional Ways" says, to me, that this change to KM is happening no matter what because it "must" change, but that maybe it can be "balanced/softened" if additional changes elsewhere are made to the set to cause the nerf to sting less.

I'm going to jump on the "this change is not good" bandwagon here and attempt to appeal to reason - I believe Powerhouse has said Kinetic Melee is going to be looked at in a future update but we have no idea how far away that update is. It could be three months, it could be a year. I don't think it's a good idea to remove one of the few appealing aspects of Kinetic Melee now with the intention of working on the entire set later. HC has already proven they're capable of seriously improving existing sets once they get attention but it's far more palatable for Burst to get adjusted in the context of changes to the entire set than it is to see Burst get "normalized" for the sake of normalization.

[ScarySai]

4 minutes ago, Machariel said:

stalker KM doesn't rely on burst to be competitive... it relies on having a tight attack chain that maximizes the number of times you can smash that 0.67 sec assassin's strike button.

 

Don't touch this, either - unless you just want to go all the way on spiting KM players.

[Gatling]

1 hour ago, AurianArchive said:

We can discuss endlessly how secondary effects that don't work to stop enemies [endurance modification] were used as justification for aggressively low damage (pretty much every electrical attack ever).

I still don't understand this Ideaology.

One is elec. Secondary is End mod.
Damage says "10"

One is Ice, Secondary is slow.
Damage says: "10"

Verdict: Elec does less damage.

Wut? 1 power or two may need to be fixed, but it's really fallacious to say that Elec is aggressively weak in comparison to their contemporaries. That's my 2 cents, despite most of this conversation about KM

[macskull]

1 minute ago, Gatling said:

I still don't understand this Ideaology.

One is elec. Secondary is End mod.
Damage says "10"

One is Ice, Secondary is slow.
Damage says: "10"

Verdict: Elec does less damage.

Wut? 1 power or two may need to be fixed, but it's really fallacious to say that Elec is aggressively weak in comparison to their contemporaries. That's my 2 cents, despite most of this conversation about KM

The post you quoted had quite a few ridiculous statements, but you could look at this from the opposite point of view - take Fire Blast, which lacks any real secondary effect outside of "free extra damage via DoTs." If that's your starting point, then every other set gives up damage in exchange for an actual secondary effect, and of those secondary effects end drain is arguably the worst because of its binary nature.

[TheSpiritFox]

3 hours ago, Machariel said:

😭 kinetic melee did nothing wrong

I support my kinetic melee buddies. Drop the change until KM gets a rework to make it a better set. 

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Is it any wonder that I, and many others, believe that once something hits Open Beta Testing that it's no longer up for debate that an amputation is being made, but rather, that all we're doing is negotiating how far up the leg we amputate?

I love the HC developers for keeping City of Heroes alive. I really do.

 

However, the one thing that I don't like is that once they decide to nerf something it gets nerfed. The amount of people against it doesn't matter, showing all the math you want doesn't matter, nothing matters. They ask for feedback but, if your feedback is too aggressively against their proposed changes they hide your posts and say that your feedback wasn't focused enough.

 

Kinetic Melee is going to get nerfed no matter what you all say or do. I hope I'm wrong, but I'll bet real money on it that I'm not.