Please revert the Rage change.

[Vanden]

You could always just... not click it again before the crash.

 

Could just not pick it, too

But then why be Super Strength to begin with?

[Stealthrider]

The Rage -Def crash isn't a problem in teams. In a proper team, you'll have way more than a 20% Defense buffer before you're past the softcap. It's completely meaningless unless you're also being Defense debuffed, in which case you likely would still dip below the softcap even without the Rage crash. But that's extremely unlikely when fighting the only things a crash like that actually matters against, AVs.

 

Solo it's even less of a problem, as unless you're fighting +4/x8 missions you're unlikely to notice the drop, since everything will be dead from your first Foot Stomp anyway. The only thing you have to do is pay attention and not engage a group right before Rage drops.

 

I say leave it as-is. It only makes a difference in niche circumstances, but in those niche circumstances it's nice that SS actually has a defensive weakness, too.

[Burnt Toast]

A "proper" team? Really? Have you played CoH? There is no trinity needed to play. So you are saying a SS Brute/Tank should play with a Cold/Time Defender/Corruptor or Emp Defender at all times to compensate for the -20% defense crash? Talk about niche!

 

Do you have a 50 SS character? Should SS tanks have to play backup tank only? That 10 seconds is a long time when going head to head with an AV/GM/EB. That 10 seconds in any level 50 content with a team sized mission of x4 or more can be quite problematic.  Just because you don't think it isn't a problem doesn't mean it isn't one experienced by many players doing various types of content.

 

FYI it was not a "bug" on live - the devs never "fixed" it to what it is now because they knew that doing so would have caused a poop storm of epic proportions. You honestly think it couldn't have been "fixed" by the actual devs easily? They knew how to fix it... they chose not to because it wasn't seen as a game breaking issue whereas "fixing" it would have pissed off a lot of people (kind of like now where people are abandoning their SS characters left and right because this "fix" was slipped in). I have one friend whose main was a SS Brute on live for years...he came back just to replay that character that he loved for so long only to find out it was "fixed" - he has since left Homecoming because his character was nerf-slapped. He went to one of the I-24 servers which sucks because I refuse to go to them because they do not have Sentinels. Just sucks because we waited for 6.5 years to play together...

 

 

 

The Rage -Def crash isn't a problem in teams. In a proper team, you'll have way more than a 20% Defense buffer before you're past the softcap. It's completely meaningless unless you're also being Defense debuffed, in which case you likely would still dip below the softcap even without the Rage crash. But that's extremely unlikely when fighting the only things a crash like that actually matters against, AVs.

 

Solo it's even less of a problem, as unless you're fighting +4/x8 missions you're unlikely to notice the drop, since everything will be dead from your first Foot Stomp anyway. The only thing you have to do is pay attention and not engage a group right before Rage drops.

 

I say leave it as-is. It only makes a difference in niche circumstances, but in those niche circumstances it's nice that SS actually has a defensive weakness, too.

[Nixeras]

I'm 100% for the revert to live and here's why: When the devs of live were doing revisions to a lot of powersets they already fixed rage, since it used to be you could skip the entire crash of it with enough cooldown instead of just skipping the defense portion. They made it so you could no longer skip the damage decrease when rage crashed but they left the defense skip in. It's not like they couldn't have fixed it, no. They simply felt it didn't need to be changed.

 

I don't either. I don't think it should have been nerfed at all since all that does is make some powersets less viable with Superstrength than before. It used to be that it had a weakness that you might have to build enough of a certain stat to overcome much like many sets do. Now it simply has a glaring hole in its defenses, literally. Sure you could choose a resistance based defense set and suffer much less, or even depend entirely on your teammates to patch up a glaring crippling weakness that shouldn't be present in your build but isn't the entire point of this game to be able to play with any sets you want, any combination, and still be roughly as powerful as other people? The game was and always will be about having choices and it's not a choice if there's clearly superior sets out there.

 

At this point I don't really know why anyone would take Super Strength, it's simply not fun. It used to be fun to overcome the challenge of rage crash. It was a wall but it wasn't insurmountable. You wouldn't die if you lost track of things and mistimed your crash, you could continue to do your job as a super strength tanker even when you were putting out no damage. Now there's no reason though, it's core feature is Rage. Changing that feature to a simple build up would be stupid because that's not what players went to super strength for.

 

I've seen many people state that instead of playing Super Strength they went with Street Justice because they found out about the nerf to Rage. Rage is such a critical part of super strength because the sets attacks on average hit less per activation time than other sets do and they're doing crushing damage literally one of if not the most resisted damage types in the game. Without Rage (as I've seen some people here suggest) you may as well have rolled literally any other power set. If you turn it into a build up, you may as well just remove super strength from the game and put the animations in as alternates for street justice.

 

The weirdest thing is it's not even like Super Strength needed a nerf. Like I said in the first paragraph it was on level dps-wise with some of the other top melee sets on live. It wasn't overpowered, in fact it wasn't even #1. It was simply a strong set, which is sort of how it should be considering it's called "Super Strength". Compare the updated version to some of the proliferated sets and you'll see that it barely holds a candle now because if you're actually trying to keep rage stacked to achieve top DPS you're practically killing yourself.

 

Also I'd like to point out that literally no other melee set decreases your defense for any reason. None. You don't lose defense or resistance. Even some of the sets that have their own unique mechanics like savage melee (Weird it's almost like Rage was meant to be a unique mechanic or something) don't have any sort of debuffs attached to their damage increases. Street Justice gets combo points that increase base damage and a build up ability that increases it even further and yet it has no negatives behind it. As far as I know there's no reason to make it so a tanker or brute can do their job (which is ideally tanking) worse.

[Profit]

Rage needs the -def to help balance it's buff.

 

Now, having said that, I think we only need to revisit the -def numbers. I don't know if many of you remember this, but when rage was given the -def, invincibility was pulsing 3x what it was supposed to providing 3x more def than it was supposed to. It was also doing this pulse when ED and GDN happened as well. Invincibility was 'fixed' shortly after Rage on live. So any defense tweaks were made on the basis of 3x the amount of defense it was supposed to give.

 

The fix for invincibility after the pulse was to 'front load' the def, which you guys may also not remember. So that the first mob gave the most def and so on.

 

What we need to do is this, we need the numbers for invincibility before ED and GDN, the 3x numbers. We need to figure out what the numbers should have been. Then we need to compare the numbers for 3x and regular invincibility with ED and GDN factored in. And at that point we calculate what the Rage -def should actually be, I'd almost bet doughnuts it comes out to less than the -20% it is now. This would also allow us to determine if invincibility should get a def boost to keep it in line with what happened to other defensive powers when ED, GDN, and the 3x pulse are all taken into account. I'd lay another doughnut on the line that invincibility needs a smallish boost upward.

[Nixeras]

I don't see how rage needs a defense debuff on top of a 10 second window of no damage and a massive hit to endurance.

 

In fact you basically said it yourself. If the -def was because Invincibility was much stronger then since it's... not anymore... wouldn't that mean we could remove the debuff?

 

Also Invulnerability is a perfectly fine set in my opinion, it doesn't need a buff or a nerf. I consider it the baseline defensive set.

[Profit]

It might mean the debuff could be removed, but we haven't run the numbers. Let's get some math in this thread and see if it needs it. I still think for comparison we need both the unaltered 3x numbers and the 'fixed numbers' along with suspected 'this is probably what it should have been numbers'.

 

Edited to add: I also main an INV tank and consider it untouchable in terms of gameplay, to me it seems like the perfect set as is, but I still have this nagging curiousity and want to see the numbers on it. The numbers we have now might be better, might be worse, and I might be the only one but I would like to know.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Rage and SS have always been things that take skill to use well, and good tanks are rare as it is, good tanks who also deal great dmg are an elite subcategory and I was lucky to know a few of the handful on virtue back in the day.

 

You see I was DPS, scrapper, brute, blaster whatever I was there to tear down foes, and only tanks that did amazing dmg for their AT could even hope to pull aggro taking advantage of their innate taunting. And the taunt power pointless its mag has always been easily dwarfed by top end dmg builds.

 

Of the 3 tanks I think of that could  reliable keep aggro off me, 2 were SS. one an Ice/SS, the other a shield SS. Whats funny is I knew another Ice/SS tank that was a regular incarnate trial leader who often complained about his sets both being gimp and always made me shake my head because as nice a guy as he was and a good raid organizer he always came across as the kind of guy who NEEDED others to get anything done.

 

So that should show you how even among two players using the same AT and power sets worlds of difference in capability exist, in part due to build ability and part due to play ability. And I wouldnt call the 2nd I refer to above in my example a bad player at all Its just he was clearly by personality more coach and less fighter.

 

the deadly Ice/SS tank could keep  his rage triple stacked, and used hibernate during the crash times to stay safe and still hold plenty of aggro.

 

One of the meanest builds I ever began to make during the closing era of the old game was an SS/regen brute heavily built for global recharge. -def means nothing all that much to a no def regen build. And brute rage plus SS rage means your hitting dmg cap once you get rolling pretty reliably, dont stress over end crashes etc.

 

 

 

[Stealthrider]

A "proper" team? Really? Have you played CoH? There is no trinity needed to play. So you are saying a SS Brute/Tank should play with a Cold/Time Defender/Corruptor or Emp Defender at all times to compensate for the -20% defense crash? Talk about niche!

 

Do you have a 50 SS character? Should SS tanks have to play backup tank only? That 10 seconds is a long time when going head to head with an AV/GM/EB. That 10 seconds in any level 50 content with a team sized mission of x4 or more can be quite problematic.  Just because you don't think it isn't a problem doesn't mean it isn't one experienced by many players doing various types of content.

 

FYI it was not a "bug" on live - the devs never "fixed" it to what it is now because they knew that doing so would have caused a poop storm of epic proportions. You honestly think it couldn't have been "fixed" by the actual devs easily? They knew how to fix it... they chose not to because it wasn't seen as a game breaking issue whereas "fixing" it would have pissed off a lot of people (kind of like now where people are abandoning their SS characters left and right because this "fix" was slipped in). I have one friend whose main was a SS Brute on live for years...he came back just to replay that character that he loved for so long only to find out it was "fixed" - he has since left Homecoming because his character was nerf-slapped. He went to one of the I-24 servers which sucks because I refuse to go to them because they do not have Sentinels. Just sucks because we waited for 6.5 years to play together...

 

 

 

The Rage -Def crash isn't a problem in teams. In a proper team, you'll have way more than a 20% Defense buffer before you're past the softcap. It's completely meaningless unless you're also being Defense debuffed, in which case you likely would still dip below the softcap even without the Rage crash. But that's extremely unlikely when fighting the only things a crash like that actually matters against, AVs.

 

Solo it's even less of a problem, as unless you're fighting +4/x8 missions you're unlikely to notice the drop, since everything will be dead from your first Foot Stomp anyway. The only thing you have to do is pay attention and not engage a group right before Rage drops.

 

I say leave it as-is. It only makes a difference in niche circumstances, but in those niche circumstances it's nice that SS actually has a defensive weakness, too.

 

A proper team is "literally anything with Maneuvers, any other kind of team +Def buffs, any kind of ToHit debuffs, any kind of pretty much anything." If you aren't at 65%+ Defense as a Tank or Brute on a team, especially as the only Tank or Brute on that team, I question your teammates' build decisions. Seriously, I don't remember the last time I was on a team at level 50 where my Invul tank wasn't at 90%+ Defense, let alone 65%. And that's including pugs.

 

I've yet to meet an SS tank or Brute in game that's complained about the Defense crash at all. Not a single one. Never seen one die because of it, either.

 

[Zolgar]

If we're changing Rage to not murder you when it drops. Can we maybe also do away with crashing T9s in armor sets? >.>

[Burnt Toast]

By your logic - I have never seen anyone in game complain about the changes to MSR or DFB either so that must not be something that is irritating people either. Anecdotal evidence aside - it is obviously an issue for some people who have posted here and on discord. Just because you do not see it doesn't mean 1372 (made up number) people are not happy with a change made to something in the game. I know probably 8-9 people in-game angry over the change - and one who has left for another server without this "fix." It's one thing to add things to the game to increase players experiences, but another to take things away that existed for years because of a perceived imbalance that frankly does nothing but actually make SS on par with other sets. If you looked at the actual numbers you would see that even with perma rage - SS is NOT the top performing set damage wise; especially when you take into account the type of damage it does.

 

A "proper" team? Really? Have you played CoH? There is no trinity needed to play. So you are saying a SS Brute/Tank should play with a Cold/Time Defender/Corruptor or Emp Defender at all times to compensate for the -20% defense crash? Talk about niche!

 

Do you have a 50 SS character? Should SS tanks have to play backup tank only? That 10 seconds is a long time when going head to head with an AV/GM/EB. That 10 seconds in any level 50 content with a team sized mission of x4 or more can be quite problematic.  Just because you don't think it isn't a problem doesn't mean it isn't one experienced by many players doing various types of content.

 

FYI it was not a "bug" on live - the devs never "fixed" it to what it is now because they knew that doing so would have caused a poop storm of epic proportions. You honestly think it couldn't have been "fixed" by the actual devs easily? They knew how to fix it... they chose not to because it wasn't seen as a game breaking issue whereas "fixing" it would have pissed off a lot of people (kind of like now where people are abandoning their SS characters left and right because this "fix" was slipped in). I have one friend whose main was a SS Brute on live for years...he came back just to replay that character that he loved for so long only to find out it was "fixed" - he has since left Homecoming because his character was nerf-slapped. He went to one of the I-24 servers which sucks because I refuse to go to them because they do not have Sentinels. Just sucks because we waited for 6.5 years to play together...

 

 

 

The Rage -Def crash isn't a problem in teams. In a proper team, you'll have way more than a 20% Defense buffer before you're past the softcap. It's completely meaningless unless you're also being Defense debuffed, in which case you likely would still dip below the softcap even without the Rage crash. But that's extremely unlikely when fighting the only things a crash like that actually matters against, AVs.

 

Solo it's even less of a problem, as unless you're fighting +4/x8 missions you're unlikely to notice the drop, since everything will be dead from your first Foot Stomp anyway. The only thing you have to do is pay attention and not engage a group right before Rage drops.

 

I say leave it as-is. It only makes a difference in niche circumstances, but in those niche circumstances it's nice that SS actually has a defensive weakness, too.

 

A proper team is "literally anything with Maneuvers, any other kind of team +Def buffs, any kind of ToHit debuffs, any kind of pretty much anything." If you aren't at 65%+ Defense as a Tank or Brute on a team, especially as the only Tank or Brute on that team, I question your teammates' build decisions. Seriously, I don't remember the last time I was on a team at level 50 where my Invul tank wasn't at 90%+ Defense, let alone 65%. And that's including pugs.

 

I've yet to meet an SS tank or Brute in game that's complained about the Defense crash at all. Not a single one. Never seen one die because of it, either.

[Burnt Toast]

HUGE difference between Rage and Tier 9 abilities... HUGE. Rage doesn't give you defense...instead it now takes it from you.

 

If we're changing Rage to not murder you when it drops. Can we maybe also do away with crashing T9s in armor sets? >.>

[Zolgar]

HUGE difference between Rage and Tier 9 abilities... HUGE. Rage doesn't give you defense...instead it now takes it from you.

 

If we're changing Rage to not murder you when it drops. Can we maybe also do away with crashing T9s in armor sets? >.>

 

The complaint here is that the Rage drop kills you. I find crashing T9s infinitely worse than Rage. Pop 2 purples as Rage is about to crash and all you have to worry about now is the -damage which you can use prestige attacks to bypass. Crashing T9s on the other hand are literally the worst idea the original devs had that managed to stay in the game. >.>

[Burnt Toast]

God mode powers like Tier 9 in melee sets make absolute sense to me as does their "crash." You are saying to nerf one ability which makes a set on par with other melee sets yet asking for a God Mode with no crash? Do I think they could be tweaked somewhat to say a 70% end drain with no recovery for like 10 seconds..sure... but they literally are God mode so they must be expensive and have long recharges imo.

 

HUGE difference between Rage and Tier 9 abilities... HUGE. Rage doesn't give you defense...instead it now takes it from you.

 

If we're changing Rage to not murder you when it drops. Can we maybe also do away with crashing T9s in armor sets? >.>

 

The complaint here is that the Rage drop kills you. I find crashing T9s infinitely worse than Rage. Pop 2 purples as Rage is about to crash and all you have to worry about now is the -damage which you can use prestige attacks to bypass. Crashing T9s on the other hand are literally the worst idea the original devs had that managed to stay in the game. >.>

[Galaxy Brain]

You could always just... not click it again before the crash.

 

*This*

 

The only problem is if you constantly keep the rage up as fast as you can. If you keep it to just under 2 min then it's fine.

[subbacultchas]

I played a SS/Elec Brute for years, and a SS/Fire for years before that. While I was never significantly bothered by the -def then, and wouldn't be probably now, I see where it's a big issue for other builds with it. And as noted, the entire set is based around Rage it seems, as plenty of the attacks actually underperform otherwise (especially high end as s/l). Simply put, Rage is one of if not *the* defining power in SS. And right now it's broken for many defensive sets, not just not working correctly, but actively works against your build.

 

I'm in solidarity with the people asking for a change to it.

[Number Six]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

[JusticeEagle]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

Don't forget that SS is kind of built around Rage, and becomes a subpar set now that it's broken.

[Rylas]

Just to set some parameters here:

 

1. My understanding is that the change in question was part of a larger powers system revamp that fixed a lot of stacking bugs affecting other powers. Rage wasn't the target but was unintended collateral damage.

 

2. The bugfix isn't going to be rolled back. Not only would it break other things again but I'm not sure it can be reasonably disentangled from the rest of the powers system enhancements.

 

3. -20% Def is hugely punishing to specific powersets while affecting others much less.

 

4. Rebalancing Rage is absolutely on the table if we get some good ideas to keep it as an interesting, distinctive power for Super Strength.

 

Thanks for providing a starting point! It's always great how much this dev team pays attention to community concerns.

 

Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful?

 

And if not, could you think of what the desired effect of an alternative might achieve?

[Profit]

 

the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back)

 

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob. And if they are getting up, they aren't wailing on me. So it is incorrect to play like you're helpless because of no damage, you're not helpless, just not doing what you think you should do.

[Number Six]

Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful?

 

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it.

 

Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic.

[JusticeEagle]

 

the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back)

 

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob. And if they are getting up, they aren't wailing on me. So it is incorrect to play like you're helpless because of no damage, you're not helpless, just not doing what you think you should do.

 

This is what's incorrect. Many of the mobs that are going to be most dangerous will also have at least some kd protection. And the end crash means you may not be able to Footstomp anyway, even if they are vulnerable to knockdown.

[JusticeEagle]

Would you say there's openness on that table for just removing the -Def penalty? Considering the end crash (and what risks that can bring), the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back), and that SS is disadvantaged in the late game with prominent resists to S/L; do you consider there being a case that could be argued for it, even if not ultimately successful?

 

I think straight up removing it would have to come with some other downside. The thing we want to avoid is it becoming a "just set it on auto and forget about it" power, as that runs counter to the intent of both the original design and Castle's redesign of it.

 

Even removing the damage penalty (due to the mentioned smashing resist issues) isn't out of the question if we can come up with some kind of alternative mechanic.

 

I think the damage and end crash alone are going to prevent that from occurring. The last thing I want to do is suddenly have all my toggles drop, but while punishing I can still mind that. The def crash means if I am tanking, Rage now becomes a useless power in high level content, because I put the rest of the team in danger by suddenly not being unable to tank anymore.

[Profit]

 

the damage penalty (which means foes get 10 secs to wail on you while you can't fight back)

 

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob. And if they are getting up, they aren't wailing on me. So it is incorrect to play like you're helpless because of no damage, you're not helpless, just not doing what you think you should do.

 

This is what's incorrect. Many of the mobs that are going to be most dangerous will also have at least some kd protection. And the end crash means you may not be able to Footstomp anyway, even if they are vulnerable to knockdown.

 

You sound like a brute player not a tank player. Two different things. As a tank player, I can tell you I have no problems knocking anything shy of an AV from it's feet. And the End crash never runs me dry. Drops me to a little less than half sometimes, but never dry.

[Rylas]

This is incorrect. I can rage crash and still footstomp, which means I can still knockdown nearly the entire mob.

 

Fair enough point. But you're still going to have a substantial DPS drop. Not that I'm complaining about a drop, but it's certainly a downside.