How much dps for each AT?

[Olly]

23 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

I also lied above. It was so long ago I didn't recall the details. It was not sub one minute but 1:23.

 

At the time I reached out to Don Petro and he was kind enough to provide his build so you can peruse it if you'd like:

 

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http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1524&c=681&a=1362&f=HEX&dc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

 

 

Did I miss something? This is a fire/em build, not ice/fire.

[Sovera]

7 minutes ago, Olly said:

Did I miss something? This is a fire/em build, not ice/fire.

 

Correct. My bad. Now that you've mentioned it I've tried to find it but couldn't, but it's been almost two years. That build had a 1:53 best time. And the 1:23 had Hybrid toggled on too now that I've looked back at the posts under it. Even the Fire/Ninja had Assault toggled on.

[Snarky]

So to make a very very long story short.  OP, you should try for 500-700 DPS Blaster build.  there is no way to effectively know you have this.  Good luck, and thanks for playing.  And that's Numberwang!  Now let's rotate the board.

[America's Angel]

59 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

People don't do pylon tests with red insps. Which is where the DPS numbers come from.

 

I'm not talking about Pylon tests. It's mathematically impossible for a solo blaster to hit 900+DPS without red insps.
  

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I also lied above. It was so long ago I didn't recall the details. It was not sub one minute but 1:23.

 

That works out at ~590 DPS

Edited May 15, 2021 by America's Angel

[Neiska]

Just my mere thoughts about it, but I think when people focus on DPS, its kind of a trap, for a few reasons.

 

1.) The best DPS "When"? Are we talking Single Target? AoE? On a team? Or are they Solo? What about the kinds of enemies? Are we talking AE farms, Story mode, GMs, AVs, etc? What about enemy types? Undead? Robots? etc etc.

 

2.) Are we talking consistent smooth DPS, or are we talking when the stars align and you pop a red/aim/procs happen, and the RNG gods favor you with the best of all possible outcomes?

 

3.) There is a lot more to the game than just DPS numbers. There's Buffs, Debuffs, Heals, Debuff Resists, CC, Support and more. If everyone only focused on DPS to the exclusion of all else, well many classes would rarely be played.

 

4.) There is so much variance in the game, that I would argue that DPS shouldn't be the end-all be-all when comparing different ATs. I mean, lets take SoA's. On a full team, A single SoA with their toggles on, would be contributing more "effective" DPS to the entire team than another DPS AT would I should think.

 

5.) Lastly we have what I would call "special circumstances." I mean, no one would argue that MM's are OP or DPS kings, and yet I farm with my MMs regularly, in a way that makes them faster than my Brutes, Tankers, and so on. On top of that, I can take that same MM onto teams doing other activities, and still perform other roles, such as healing, support, status immunity, endless END for everyone. I can do all that, and "still" farm with her quite quickly and effectively.

 

So, I think focusing entirely on DPS alone is "missing the forest for the trees." In the end, play what is fun, what you like, and what you are comfortable with on the difficulty you choose. Personally I tried blasters and scrappers, and I wasn't a fan. Sure, they had dps, but thats "all" they had. Which to me was kind of boring, spamming the same 4 or 5 buttons endlessly. That and the blasters I've tried were all super squishys, and I usually loathe "glass cannons" in games. But to each their own!

 

My two cents for what its worth.

[America's Angel]

I think the record Pylon time is Veracor's mastermind at 9s (a whopping 4388 DPS)

 

 

[Snarky]

22 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

I think the record Pylon time is Veracor's mastermind at 9s (a whopping 4388 DPS)

 

 

that pylon wasnt killed.  it committed suicide.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Snarky said:

that pylon wasnt killed.  it committed suicide.

 

It's amazing what one can accomplish with all the available insps, P2W cheats and base buffs.

[Marshal_General]

2 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

It's amazing what one can accomplish with all the available insps, P2W cheats and base buffs.

I think it mostly came from abusing burnout to reset all cooldowns.

[Bill Z Bubba]

7 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

I think it mostly came from abusing burnout to reset all cooldowns.

 

That and the fact that MM pets are equal level to pylons unlike 99% of the rest of the content. Total side note: I think they should be equal lvl to the MM all the time.

[macskull]

4 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

I think it mostly came from abusing burnout to reset all cooldowns.

Nah, if you watch the video the pylon goes down just about the same time as they start the animation for the second Freezing Rain after hitting Burnout.

[SuperPlyx]

He used 8  Intuition Imbuement: +28.12% To Hit, +37.5% Damage, +50% Perception to Team, that's 300 damage boost to all 10 pets.

Looks like all he uses is Sleet, Heat loss and Burnout...the pets do everything else. 

[InvaderStych]

37 minutes ago, SuperPlyx said:

He used 8  Intuition Imbuement: +28.12% To Hit, +37.5% Damage, +50% Perception to Team, that's 300 damage boost to all 10 pets.

 

This.

 

When did we start running Pylon tests after burning half a tray of inspirations?  I missed the memo! 🤣

Edited May 15, 2021 by InvaderStych

[Galaxy Brain]

On 5/15/2021 at 9:57 AM, Olly said:

 

@Snarky -- take note of Sovera's comment. When people talk about 500-900 dps, they are talking about pylon damage dps. CoH doesn't have any good tools or mods that will effectively calculate DPS. So people do it "the old fashioned way" and hit the pylons in RWZ.

 

And since this has turned into a blaster DPS thread, @Galaxy Brain has this tool: Blaster Primary Comparison: Standard Environment Testing - Blaster - Homecoming

 

 

Hey there! So, that is not strictly a DPS tool in the traditional sense but it does give an idea of the "realistic" output per set. For example, Ice may have more DPS potential than Beam Rifle against a single target, but given that was a mission map Beam ended up doing better in terms of "real" speed.

 

Neiska's post covers a bit more of what we see there:

 

 

On 5/15/2021 at 10:40 AM, Neiska said:

Just my mere thoughts about it, but I think when people focus on DPS, its kind of a trap, for a few reasons.

 

1.) The best DPS "When"? Are we talking Single Target? AoE? On a team? Or are they Solo? What about the kinds of enemies? Are we talking AE farms, Story mode, GMs, AVs, etc? What about enemy types? Undead? Robots? etc etc.

 

2.) Are we talking consistent smooth DPS, or are we talking when the stars align and you pop a red/aim/procs happen, and the RNG gods favor you with the best of all possible outcomes?

 

3.) There is a lot more to the game than just DPS numbers. There's Buffs, Debuffs, Heals, Debuff Resists, CC, Support and more. If everyone only focused on DPS to the exclusion of all else, well many classes would rarely be played.

 

Especially these points, which I try to highlight in the "Standard Environment" tests. Things like having attacks with CC, smooth self buffs mob to mob, and so on score sets big points in this test over just raw damage.

 

 

 

On 5/15/2021 at 10:40 AM, Neiska said:

4.) There is so much variance in the game, that I would argue that DPS shouldn't be the end-all be-all when comparing different ATs. I mean, lets take SoA's. On a full team, A single SoA with their toggles on, would be contributing more "effective" DPS to the entire team than another DPS AT would I should think.

 

5.) Lastly we have what I would call "special circumstances." I mean, no one would argue that MM's are OP or DPS kings, and yet I farm with my MMs regularly, in a way that makes them faster than my Brutes, Tankers, and so on. On top of that, I can take that same MM onto teams doing other activities, and still perform other roles, such as healing, support, status immunity, endless END for everyone. I can do all that, and "still" farm with her quite quickly and effectively.

 

So, I think focusing entirely on DPS alone is "missing the forest for the trees." In the end, play what is fun, what you like, and what you are comfortable with on the difficulty you choose. Personally I tried blasters and scrappers, and I wasn't a fan. Sure, they had dps, but thats "all" they had. Which to me was kind of boring, spamming the same 4 or 5 buttons endlessly. That and the blasters I've tried were all super squishys, and I usually loathe "glass cannons" in games. But to each their own!

 

My two cents for what its worth.

 

 

The highlight here is SUPER important based on the test too. People tote their melee characters as ST DPS kings because of Pylon tests.... well they don't hold a candle to "support" AT combos in that scenario due to how their debuffs play.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Galaxy Brain

[Olerus]

A couple comments on earlier discussions in this thread:

 

Mids' has three ways of showing powerset information: Damage, Damage per Activation, and Damage per Second.  I am assuming that the commenter confused on how to reach >500 DPS was on the Damage Per Second way of showing power information, which tells you the damage the power deals divided by the time it takes to cast and recharge (or the damage you'd deal per second if you left the attack on auto).

 

A max damage Bitter Ice Blast with 200% or so global recharge would be hitting about 100 damage per cycle.  It would also deal well over 500 damage per activation.  The latter is more useful because a good attack chain will be constantly attacking, not waiting for one power to recharge.

 

I have never used the Mids DPS calculator and I'm skeptical that it would work.  Mids does not seem to properly account for procs (counting global recharge last time I looked), and finding the best attack chain is a fairly complex algorithm that would need such information to be accurate.  A perfect calculator would even need to take into account the utility of sacrificing damage per activation for a better chance of applying one of the three -resistance procs earlier in the chain.

 

The best way to figure out DPS is the pylon test.  The second best way is by hand, i.e. figuring out the expected damage by procs and dividing the proc + regular damage of each power by the total arcanaville animation time.  That won't be perfect if you have Achilles' Heel or other resistance debuffs in your kit, or things like Decimation's chance for Build Up, but it will get you close.

 

As far as comparisons go, I'd basically use the following scale:

 

100 DPS:  Roughly what a defender deals on SOs at 50, accounting for gaps in a chain and not using procs (Gloom for Dark Blast dealing ~130 DPA).  This would be your lower end corrupters, most defenders, most controllers, and tankers that put little investment into attacking.  (Note that all of these can be pumped much higher in the IO world).

106 DPS:  The minimum needed to kill a Pylon

150 DPS:  What I'd expect most damage focused archetypes to deal on SOs, accounting for gaps in a chain and not using procs (Gloom for Dark Blast Blasters dealing ~190 DPA) 

200 DPS:  This roughly what most damage oriented archetype will deal with a few IOs and a clean attack chain, and may be about the incarnate level damage for a poor single target set (Electric Blast, Spines)

250 DPS:  This is what I'd expect the 'average' damage archetype sets to deal with IOs and incarnates (Kinetic Melee, Radiation Blast)

300 DPS:  This is what I'd expect the 'good' damage archetype to deal with IOs and incarnates (Katana, Claws, Beam Rifle)

 

Past that, most things are exceptions.  Lore pets for instance add a flat 200-270 extra damage per second (with the top being Banished Pantheon).  Certain sets are outliers:  old Titan Weapons, Bio Armor, Ice Blast, Fire Blast, Street Justice on Stalkers, Energy Melee.  These sets can usually reach a much higher damage DPS number punching a Pylon than other sets in their archetype.  Numbers also get amped by temporary powers, Hybrid actives being on, inspiration usage, prebuffing, etc.  An Ice blaster can deal a lot of damage in the 5s it takes Build, Aim, and Gaussian's to fall off.

 

Pets also tend to do great damage, if they can live and focus their full damage on a target.  Masterminds, Crab Spider Soldiers, Controllers, and Dominators can all get a lot of benefit out of this.  Other archetypes can use powers like Water Spout or Tornado that can deal a ton of damage against an immobile target to increase their numbers.  Even defenders can buff up an ancillary power pool pet and use it to temporarily impress on the DPS scale.  

 

So something like an Ice/Em blaster could get up to 800-900 DPS by going all-out with procs, getting musculature, having Hybrid Assault active, maintaining high mileage from Build/Aim/Gaussian's, using inspirations or temporary powers, and adding in ancillary pets and lore pets.   I can't tell you exactly what combination of these was used to achieve that high number.  

 

However, even something like an attackless Empathy defender could deal north of 350 just by slapping Fortitude on an Incarnate pet and ancillary pet.  Right now, the characters I play the most are a Stone/Dark Tanker (150-200ish), a Water/Time blaster (200-250 ST, insane AoE), a NW/Fortunata (400-500), an Ice/Cold Controller (500+), and a TW/Bio Scrapper (500+) for some reference.  The latter three can also pretty easily clear +4 AVs and GMs. and they all have full purple builds and incarnates.