thunderforce Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 I'm not sure what the "blind bid" system for the AH is meant to accomplish, but what it mainly does accomplish is being annoying. In particular because there's no fee to place a buy offer, you can find the lowest sell offer by creeping your bid up - it's just slow and irritating. I propose that the game should dispense with this and show you the lowest sell offer and highest buy offer in the AH interface, ideally with buttons to buy from and sell to those offers directly. This would save a great deal of time when one wants to buy or sell now and it would make it easier to get a realistic idea of the price when not aiming to buy or sell now. Homecoming Wiki - please use it (because it reflects the game in 2020 not 2012) and edit it (because there is lots to do) Things to do in City of Heroes, sorted by level. Things to do in City of Villains, sorted by level. Things only Incarnates can do in City of X. Why were you kicked from your cross-alignment team? A guide. A starting alignment flowchart Travel power opinions Get rid of the sidekick level malus and the 5-level exemplar power grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Vee Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Please no. The market was already one of the most perfect things about coh and the fungibility has only made it better. If I want to see prices I can always go back to other MMOs where the lack of double blind annoyed me to no end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderforce Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 Please no. The market was already one of the most perfect things about coh and the fungibility has only made it better. I honestly don't understand how it being possible but incredibly fiddly to determine the lowest sale price is "perfect" (let alone the previous price history being served up to you after an arbitary delay rather than, say, immediately...) Homecoming Wiki - please use it (because it reflects the game in 2020 not 2012) and edit it (because there is lots to do) Things to do in City of Heroes, sorted by level. Things to do in City of Villains, sorted by level. Things only Incarnates can do in City of X. Why were you kicked from your cross-alignment team? A guide. A starting alignment flowchart Travel power opinions Get rid of the sidekick level malus and the 5-level exemplar power grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinobu Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 No. The auction house is perfect as is. It rewards the patient, the impatient pay more, and that's how you make money. If you want to buy at the lowest price, then place a reasonably low bid and come back later. It's really the best market system for an MMO that I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderforce Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 It rewards the patient, the impatient pay more, and that's how you make money. The impatient will pay more if they can see the current sell offer, because it will be easier to buy now, making it a more attractive option compared to posting a low offer and waiting. They'll also sell more cheaply if they can see the current buy offer, because just selling to it will be a more attractive option than it is now. Please let's not let the current dreadful market interface be set in stone by Stockholm Syndrome. Homecoming Wiki - please use it (because it reflects the game in 2020 not 2012) and edit it (because there is lots to do) Things to do in City of Heroes, sorted by level. Things to do in City of Villains, sorted by level. Things only Incarnates can do in City of X. Why were you kicked from your cross-alignment team? A guide. A starting alignment flowchart Travel power opinions Get rid of the sidekick level malus and the 5-level exemplar power grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rylas Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 It rewards the patient, the impatient pay more, and that's how you make money. That sums it up pretty well. Seeing bids would just ruin a good structure. Request hi-res icons here. Download the Icon Pack here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinobu Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 If I list something for 4.5 million, I am hoping that someone will bid 5 million if not higher. I am also trying to list it low enough to get the sale over someone who lists their own version for exactly five million. Why in God’s name would I want you to see exactly what I listed it for? Conversely, if I put in a bid for 10 of something at a low price -- say 10 recipes at 1,000 influence -- I'm hoping someone dumps their recipe on the market for lower than that. If they can see what I'm bidding, they might just list higher than my low bid. Why do I want that? This market rewards people for being patient and clever and thinking ahead. I don't want to revert to a more backwards system that only rewards the person who checked the market most recently. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generator Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 It rewards the patient, the impatient pay more, and that's how you make money. That sums it up pretty well. Seeing bids would just ruin a good structure. QFT. Clunky interface aside, the double blind system works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderforce Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 If I list something for 4.5 million, I am hoping that someone will bid 5 million if not higher. I am also trying to list it low enough to get the sale over someone who lists their own version for exactly five million. Why in God’s name would I want you to see exactly what I listed it for? This is just saying that the bad user interface works to your advantage because most people would rather play the game than fight it. This should not be the basis on which the user interface is designed. Imagine if any other commercial transation were carried out in the same way. "I'd like to buy this computer monitor, please." "Certainly. I have the price tag here." "And how much does it cost?" "I'm sorry, I can't tell you that. You'll have to guess." "Can I have it for £50?" "No." "£60?" "No." "How about £65?" "No." "Let's try £75." "No." "£80?" "Well, all right then." This would be rightly condemned as an absurd arrangement. It remains absurd here; and right at this moment when we have a lot of new players coming in who haven't internalised the market being horrible to use - who may in fact have played MMOs with non-horrible market interfaces (where of course it is perfectly possible to make money by being patient and clever) - is the time to get rid of this absurdity. Homecoming Wiki - please use it (because it reflects the game in 2020 not 2012) and edit it (because there is lots to do) Things to do in City of Heroes, sorted by level. Things to do in City of Villains, sorted by level. Things only Incarnates can do in City of X. Why were you kicked from your cross-alignment team? A guide. A starting alignment flowchart Travel power opinions Get rid of the sidekick level malus and the 5-level exemplar power grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rylas Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Imagine if any other commercial transation were carried out in the same way. "I'd like to buy this computer monitor, please." "Certainly. I have the price tag here." "And how much does it cost?" "I'm sorry, I can't tell you that. You'll have to guess." "Can I have it for £50?" "No." "£60?" "No." "How about £65?" "No." "Let's try £75." "No." "£80?" "Well, all right then." Ah, I see the problem. You're confusing retail with auctioning. Request hi-res icons here. Download the Icon Pack here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderforce Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 Ah, I see the problem. You're confusing retail with auctioning. I expected a reply of this form. No, I'm not. No RL auction works like this (no, it doesn't - whatever you come up with, it won't have this characteristic where the bidder can at no fee submit any number of bids gradually creeping up towards a predetermined price; it would be absurd - even more annoying with real money where the bidder is even more incentivised to make tiny increments in their bids.) When you're trying to find out the lowest sell price on the City AH, it's just like the example I provided (which isn't like retail or an auction because no-one in their right mind would sell things like that IRL). There's a predetermined price tag but you're not allowed to know what it is. Homecoming Wiki - please use it (because it reflects the game in 2020 not 2012) and edit it (because there is lots to do) Things to do in City of Heroes, sorted by level. Things to do in City of Villains, sorted by level. Things only Incarnates can do in City of X. Why were you kicked from your cross-alignment team? A guide. A starting alignment flowchart Travel power opinions Get rid of the sidekick level malus and the 5-level exemplar power grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bionic_Flea Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Put me down in the "NO" camp as well. The Market works perfectly as is. If you don't like bid creeping . . . don't bid creep. Make a reasonable offer and walk away or pay the "Buy-it-now" price that should be discernible from the last 5 sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Vee Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 See that's the thing, we have played other MMOs and their markets are terrible. I thought swtor had the worst possible. Then I played secret world legends. I'm willing to bet there are even worse ones. All the constant undercutting, short sale terms, relisting. It's just awful. I get that you're used to a more direct sale market than an auction house but give it a chance and I think you'll like it. A bunch of people liked it so much on the original servers that is practically all they did. And even if you don't grow to like it, at least I hope you'll appreciate how nice it is to be able to search and bid for things that aren't currently for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderforce Posted May 31, 2019 Author Share Posted May 31, 2019 I get that you're used to a more direct sale market than an auction house but give it a chance and I think you'll like it. Give it a chance? It's had 12 years; the only thing that's happened in the interim is I spent some of the time playing EVE where the market interface is made as convenient as reasonably possible [1], which makes it even more painfully obvious how gratuitously awkward the AH is (and should make it clear I'm not "used to a more direct sale market than an auction house"; I'm used to a market where one posts buy and sell offers, which is what we have here except clumsy.) And even if you don't grow to like it, at least I hope you'll appreciate how nice it is to be able to search and bid for things that aren't currently for sale. I didn't propose that that facility be removed; indeed, you'd even be able to find out how much people were bidding on those items. [1] Let me anticipate the next reply; I am not suggesting everything EVE's market does be reproduced here, like constant relisting to undercut the other party by 0.01 ISK, or indeed hilarious shenanigans. Homecoming Wiki - please use it (because it reflects the game in 2020 not 2012) and edit it (because there is lots to do) Things to do in City of Heroes, sorted by level. Things to do in City of Villains, sorted by level. Things only Incarnates can do in City of X. Why were you kicked from your cross-alignment team? A guide. A starting alignment flowchart Travel power opinions Get rid of the sidekick level malus and the 5-level exemplar power grace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Vee Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Ah, I see the problem. You're confusing retail with auctioning. I expected a reply of this form. No, I'm not. No RL auction works like this (no, it doesn't - whatever you come up with, it won't have this characteristic where the bidder can at no fee submit any number of bids gradually creeping up towards a predetermined price; it would be absurd - even more annoying with real money where the bidder is even more incentivised to make tiny increments in their bids.) eBay works kinda like this, except here if you creep the bid enough you get the item rather than just lead the bidding til someone else ups theirs. Now, a compromise I think might work, though I'm ecstatic with the market as it is now, would be the option for the seller to list a buy it now price in addition to their list price. But I'm not a computers so idk how hard that'd be to implement and I'm not convinced it'd be an actual improvement so much as just an attempt to make folks like you a bit happier with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rylas Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 I expected a reply of this form. And yet you still decided to use a purely retail format for your bad analogy. No RL auction works like this (no, it doesn't - whatever you come up with, it won't have this characteristic where the bidder can at no fee submit any number of bids gradually creeping up towards a predetermined price; it would be absurd - even more annoying with real money where the bidder is even more incentivised to make tiny increments in their bids.) Pretty sure that's the whole point of blind auctions. Bids cannot be seen. The listing price can't be seen. It is advantageous for both the seller, and the potential buyers. Sure, you can play it the way you're describing, bidding higher and higher by incremental bids, but that's not a very efficient method. I know, I've tried. I could be misremembering, but I believe it prioritizes the highest bidder. Make you're small increases all you like, but someone's going to be impatient and buy it for more before you end up finding the lowest price listed. You have to be incredibly patient for low-ball strategy to pay off. Request hi-res icons here. Download the Icon Pack here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praxidicae Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 If I list something for 4.5 million, I am hoping that someone will bid 5 million if not higher. I am also trying to list it low enough to get the sale over someone who lists their own version for exactly five million. Why in God’s name would I want you to see exactly what I listed it for? This is just saying that the bad user interface works to your advantage because most people would rather play the game than fight it. This should not be the basis on which the user interface is designed. Imagine if any other commercial transation were carried out in the same way. "I'd like to buy this computer monitor, please." "Certainly. I have the price tag here." "And how much does it cost?" "I'm sorry, I can't tell you that. You'll have to guess." "Can I have it for £50?" "No." "£60?" "No." "How about £65?" "No." "Let's try £75." "No." "£80?" "Well, all right then." This would be rightly condemned as an absurd arrangement. It remains absurd here; and right at this moment when we have a lot of new players coming in who haven't internalised the market being horrible to use - who may in fact have played MMOs with non-horrible market interfaces (where of course it is perfectly possible to make money by being patient and clever) - is the time to get rid of this absurdity. Clearly it hasn't been condemned as an absurd arrangement, Blind auctions (First Price Sealed Bid Auctions) are an actual thing, this is how real world procurement contracts often work (except in reverse as it is usually contractors bidding on a job and as such the lowest bid wins). The aim of the auction is to get the seller the best price possible, whilst ensuring that the winning buyer isn't forced to inflate their bid by others constantly up-bidding them. Revealing listing prices or current bid values would undercut the entire purpose of the auction system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeon Hawkwood Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 I'll chime in as someone who likes the current system. Another MMO that uses the same system is Runescape and it has a very robust player economy so clearly the system works. One thing I would like to see is more info to reduce the knowledge gap a bit. I don't think we need to go full Runescape and have months of data available on a separate website but maybe something like the High, Low, Average and Volume for the last day or week would be useful. Defender Smash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Gemini Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 This would be rightly condemned as an absurd arrangement. It remains absurd here; and right at this moment when we have a lot of new players coming in who haven't internalised the market being horrible to use - who may in fact have played MMOs with non-horrible market interfaces (where of course it is perfectly possible to make money by being patient and clever) - is the time to get rid of this absurdity. Your dislike of the way they chose to do marketing here does not make it absurd, horrible to use, or any of the other pejoratives you use to try to bolster your arguments against it, because you have no arguments to make your view right (least of all trying to make it about new players). You only have opinion, just as the rest of us also only have opinion of what we prefer. So, you might be better off not assuming your opinion = indisputable facts of the universe. Having played games with both styles, IMO this one is far better to BOTH buyers and sellers than what you are advocating. The reasons for this have already been stated by others in this thread, so I am also in the like it as it is now camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robotech_Master Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 And if you know what you're doing, you can make millions on the market in minutes. I guess that some people just don't like uncertainty, and are too impatient to want to wait for the price to come down to their bid, or bids to go up to their price. And I can understand that. I mean, this is a game that usually offers instant gratification. You press a button, you see a nifty animation of your power going off, and some baddie goes down. Boom. But developing a little patience where auctions are concerned can do you some good in the long run. As noted in the aforementioned guide, linked above... If you liked what I had to say, please check out my City of Heroes guides! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justicebeliever Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 If they remove part of the blind, the market economy either crashes or inflates. If buyers can see the sellers prices, that just means that all future sellers are going to just have to keep lowering and lowering their prices to ensure that someone meets their price, until some equilibrium is established. If sellers can see the buyers bids, then sellers will keep raising the prices, since they know what buyers are bidding and can just price a little over that so the prices keep going up until some equilibrium is established. To be fair, all 3 systems work, but one favors the buyer, one the seller, and one favors neither. Since I am both buyer and seller, I would prefer it favor neither... Plus, its like a mini-game all in itself... "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." - Niels Bohr Global Handle: @JusticeBeliever ... Home servers on Live: Guardian ... Playing on: Everlasting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GamerKate Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 Another vote for the market as it is here. I hated the markets in other MMOS i tried after CoH. MCM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solvernia Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 If I list something for 4.5 million, I am hoping that someone will bid 5 million if not higher. I am also trying to list it low enough to get the sale over someone who lists their own version for exactly five million. Why in God’s name would I want you to see exactly what I listed it for? This is just saying that the bad user interface works to your advantage because most people would rather play the game than fight it. This should not be the basis on which the user interface is designed. Imagine if any other commercial transation were carried out in the same way. "I'd like to buy this computer monitor, please." "Certainly. I have the price tag here." "And how much does it cost?" "I'm sorry, I can't tell you that. You'll have to guess." "Can I have it for £50?" "No." "£60?" "No." "How about £65?" "No." "Let's try £75." "No." "£80?" "Well, all right then." This would be rightly condemned as an absurd arrangement. It remains absurd here; and right at this moment when we have a lot of new players coming in who haven't internalised the market being horrible to use - who may in fact have played MMOs with non-horrible market interfaces (where of course it is perfectly possible to make money by being patient and clever) - is the time to get rid of this absurdity. The auction house is not a retail store, it is an auction house. It works fine as it is, no change necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_NOPE_ Posted May 31, 2019 Share Posted May 31, 2019 /JRanger I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumors Posted June 1, 2019 Share Posted June 1, 2019 I could be for showing a little more data than just the last few bids and perhaps a clean-up on the interface. But the double blind system ought to stay since it really works out nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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