Changing rarity via converters

[Fedifensor]

Is anyone else worried about the ability to change rarity via converters damaging the long-term health of the market?  The net result is that many recipes that use rare salvage are not used anymore - you can convert an uncommon into a rare without too much difficulty.  Many enhancements are simply not viable compared to other recipes that are as effective (or more effective), and can be obtained by converting within a category (2 converters) and/or within a set (3 converters).  It's not cheap in converter cost, but if you're going to be paying 2 million anyway for a sub-optimal choice, why not play the converter lotto and get exactly what you want for close to the same price?  The end result is that a few uncommon recipes that are in the right categories are in huge demand, and the demand for most rares in that category is nonexistent.

 

Demand still remains high for rare salvage, because there are highly-desirable rares that are cheaper to get by crafting the recipe than by playing the converter lotto...and you can get the recipe you want via merits without having to deal with a random number generator.  However, this prices out the less experienced players that don't know about these tricks, and just want to build the recipes that dropped for them during gameplay.

[Ukase]

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm not worried about any of it, really. It's not like it's real cash, you know?

 

Starting from scratch - like all of us, I asked myself what was the best return to get the stuff I wanted for my characters. After all is said and done, actually just playing the game - getting merit rewards - that's all that anyone needs to do - is the best bang for the buck.

 

There are lots of ways to maximize the return on our respective play time as far as the market goes. But - the market reacts (albeit slowly) to the changes made by the devs.

 

The flooding of salvage at max prices of 10k, 50k and 1 million inf certainly had some impact. The Vanguard to reward merit conversion is another that will impact the market.

 

Ultimately, if people enjoy "arresting" the NPCs, everything else will take care of itself.

 

[Venture]

People converting can only bring the prices down imo and i'm all for that.

[Bionic_Flea]

Converters tend to reduce the price of highly desired IOs and raise the price of IOs considered to be trash.  Why?

 

Well, if you are looking to buy an LoTG +7.5, which many builds use, you might be willing to pay a few million to get it now at whatever level you want.  But if the price goes too high, you'll bid on another IO -- maybe a different piece from LoTG, maybe from a different set -- and then play converter roulette.

 

Additionally, being able to buy with reward merits puts a ceiling on prices.  Say you want an ATO, WinterO, PvP or Purple.  Those can all be purchased at 100 reward merits from the vendor.  That effectively puts a cap of 100 million inf on all the most valuable items.  Why?

 

Because you can buy reward merits at an ATM for 1 million inf.  Convert a 100 million inf to 100 merits and you have bought yourself the item of your choice.  In practice, the upper limit is probably much less due to the existence of the converters.  As discussed above, you might find a less desirable purple (or whatever) at a cheaper price and decide you'd rather roll the dice with converters.

 

IMO, the end result will be a better market overall.  Nothing will reach the absurd prices they hit on live.  Flippers will buy cheap trash and turn it to gold. 

[Murcielago]

No but what I'm seeing is more people catching onto this trend and the price of otherwise cheap converters and recipes going up. Time to stock up!

[Alphabet Soup II]

Converters tend to reduce the price of highly desired IOs and raise the price of IOs considered to be trash.  Why?

 

Well, if you are looking to buy an LoTG +7.5, which many builds use, you might be willing to pay a few million to get it now at whatever level you want.  But if the price goes too high, you'll bid on another IO -- maybe a different piece from LoTG, maybe from a different set -- and then play converter roulette.

 

Additionally, being able to buy with reward merits puts a ceiling on prices.  Say you want an ATO, WinterO, PvP or Purple.  Those can all be purchased at 100 reward merits from the vendor.  That effectively puts a cap of 100 million inf on all the most valuable items.  Why?

 

Because you can buy reward merits at an ATM for 1 million inf.  Convert a 100 million inf to 100 merits and you have bought yourself the item of your choice.  In practice, the upper limit is probably much less due to the existence of the converters.  As discussed above, you might find a less desirable purple (or whatever) at a cheaper price and decide you'd rather roll the dice with converters.

 

IMO, the end result will be a better market overall.  Nothing will reach the absurd prices they hit on live.  Flippers will buy cheap trash and turn it to gold.

 

I agree with this basically entirely. Really converters give players a ton of power. If more people used them effectively it would start to drive prices to a relatively tight range based on their rarity class. Currently though people will still throw a rare undesirable stun recipe on the market for like 5-10k despite the fact that with a few converters it could become something much more desirable. Also it's funny because something like a LotG +7.5 has massive stock on the market because a ton of people are converting pieces into them and selling them. So their price is highly driven down. Eventually as Bionic Flea says less desirable pieces will go up in price because they will so rarely be kept in their original form.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Personally I'm fine with this. The invention system has a lot of "meh" enhancements that no one ever used anyway. Converters make those recipes more valuable as drops while bringing down the cost of the actual desirable recipes. So overall this does two things, first it makes drops more predictable, you're less likely to get a lottery ticket drop but more likely to get a profitable drop. Second it makes good builds more affordable, popular IOs like LotGs and Obliterations are a lot more affordable than they would be under the old system.

 

Personally I like the economy here, I think IO build are a lot more affordable so more people can have them. I had plenty of characters on live with top tier IO'd build but then I also had something like 25billion inf in the bank so I could afford it. Here everyone can have those sorts of builds if they want them with relatively little effort so I'm all for it.

[Robotech_Master]

For those who know how to use it, this trick can allow you to literally make millions on the market in minutes. But I'm not too worried about it harming the market.

 

Remember, this new market has certain quirks that the old markets didn't have. In particular, there's "bucketing." All common, uncommon, and rare salvage is considered fungible with all other salvage of the same rarity. This effectively regularizes prices by salvage type, means there's no longer any unloved rare salvage that sells for just a pittane, and means that nobody can corner the market on any single type of salvage anymore. (Remember how frustrating it was when some jerk bought up every piece of some particular much-needed salvage and wouldn't let anyone else have any, back in the day? Can't happen now.)

 

Bucketing also means that all available levels plus Attunement of any given set IO are considered the same object, and sell for the same price. So it's no longer only lazy people who buy pre-Crafted, it's also smart people who don't want to pay 4 million Inf extra for an Enhancement Catalyst.

 

This, in turn, guarantees there will always be a market for crafted IOs, whether they're crafted from rare salvage or crafted from uncommon and upconverted. And it means that you're never going to see hundred million Inf Proc IOs, or 2 billion plus Inf PVP IOs anymore. Everything is much more affordable to all players.

 

Personally, I think that's one of I25's very best features.

[Myrmidon]

For those who know how to use it, this trick can allow you to literally make millions on the market in minutes. But I'm not too worried about it harming the market.

 

Remember, this new market has certain quirks that the old markets didn't have. In particular, there's "bucketing." All common, uncommon, and rare salvage is considered fungible with all other salvage of the same rarity. This effectively regularizes prices by salvage type, means there's no longer any unloved rare salvage that sells for just a pittane, and means that nobody can corner the market on any single type of salvage anymore. (Remember how frustrating it was when some jerk bought up every piece of some particular much-needed salvage and wouldn't let anyone else have any, back in the day? Can't happen now.)

 

Bucketing also means that all available levels plus Attunement of any given set IO are considered the same object, and sell for the same price. So it's no longer only lazy people who buy pre-Crafted, it's also smart people who don't want to pay 4 million Inf extra for an Enhancement Catalyst.

 

This, in turn, guarantees there will always be a market for crafted IOs, whether they're crafted from rare salvage or crafted from uncommon and upconverted. And it means that you're never going to see hundred million Inf Proc IOs, or 2 billion plus Inf PVP IOs anymore. Everything is much more affordable to all players.

 

Personally, I think that's one of I25's very best features.

 

One million times this.

[Yomo Kimyata]

I cannot understand why converters are so cheap.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

I cannot understand why converters are so cheap.

Because you can get three converters for a single reward merit. So right now they are both incredibly cheap and the most profitable thing to buy with reward merits.

[Robotech_Master]

Actually, Enhancement Boosters are more profitable, merit for merit.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

It looks like you're right. Converters used to be a good winner but the price has tanked enough that Boosters are slightly better at the moment.

 

So I guess now the advice changes from "trade merits for converters and sell those" to "check the market to see if converts or boosters are currently more profitable and trade merits for one of those". The price of converters seems to have hit the bottom so I expect over time the market will adjust and both converters and boosters will offer roughly the same inf:merit ratio.

[Karthunk]

It's honestly stupid, I made a bil infamy last weekend casually while binge watching hulu. I still have over 1500 enhancement converters to turn into easy infamy.... they need to be removed from the merit vender.

[MunkiLord]

It's honestly stupid, I made a bil infamy last weekend casually while binge watching hulu. I still have over 1500 enhancement converters to turn into easy infamy.... they need to be removed from the merit vender.

 

Why do they need to be removed from the vendor?

[Karthunk]

It's honestly stupid, I made a bil infamy last weekend casually while binge watching hulu. I still have over 1500 enhancement converters to turn into easy infamy.... they need to be removed from the merit vender.

 

Why do they need to be removed from the vendor?

 

Because it's over diluting the market.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

It's honestly stupid, I made a bil infamy last weekend casually while binge watching hulu. I still have over 1500 enhancement converters to turn into easy infamy.... they need to be removed from the merit vender.

Why do they need to be removed from the vendor?

Because it's over diluting the market.

So what? If people can get the builds that they want relatively easily then that's a win in my book. There's still enough slop in the market that those of us who enjoy it can make a profit and everyone else can just trade merits for Converters or Boosters and use that inf to fund their builds. It's win/win.

[Karthunk]

It's honestly stupid, I made a bil infamy last weekend casually while binge watching hulu. I still have over 1500 enhancement converters to turn into easy infamy.... they need to be removed from the merit vender.

Why do they need to be removed from the vendor?

Because it's over diluting the market.

So what? If people can get the builds that they want relatively easily then that's a win in my book. There's still enough slop in the market that those of us who enjoy it can make a profit and everyone else can just trade merits for Converters or Boosters and use that inf to fund their builds. It's win/win.

 

It's win/win in the short term, not the long term.

[Adeon Hawkwood]

Why not, what downside do you see int he long term?

[Robotech_Master]

We were talking about this on the Discord general channel earlier today. In making advancement so easy, it could potentially turn off players, not keep them playing as long if they don't have to trudge uphill in the snow both ways to get their characters built how they want them.

 

Of course, this game doesn't depend on monthly subscription feels to keep going, so maybe not keeping players as long isn't necessarily a bad thing. :)

[Karthunk]

We were talking about this on the Discord general channel earlier today. In making advancement so easy, it could potentially turn off players, not keep them playing as long if they don't have to trudge uphill in the snow both ways to get their characters built how they want them.

 

Of course, this game doesn't depend on monthly subscription feels to keep going, so maybe not keeping players as long isn't necessarily a bad thing. :)

 

Except it depends on donations which will start to dry up as people lose interest. This is a "not for profit" deal which means a couple of poor months on donations will bring the end. The new car smell fades fast when people find nothing left to work towards.

 

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

[justicebeliever]

We were talking about this on the Discord general channel earlier today. In making advancement so easy, it could potentially turn off players, not keep them playing as long if they don't have to trudge uphill in the snow both ways to get their characters built how they want them.

 

Of course, this game doesn't depend on monthly subscription feels to keep going, so maybe not keeping players as long isn't necessarily a bad thing. :)

 

Except it depends on donations which will start to dry up as people lose interest. This is a "not for profit" deal which means a couple of poor months on donations will bring the end. The new car smell fades fast when people find nothing left to work towards.

 

I should not be worth a billion infamy at this point, I haven't had to work hard enough to reach this level.

 

A couple thoughts here - Let's separate the market from general gameplay. 

1.) People leveling up and people earning boatloads of influence are 2 separate parts of the game.  One part of the gameplay is pretty much required (leveling up), and the other is really entirely optional (the marketplace)

For example - I hate leveling too quickly - I know that if I want to level quicker, I have many options, but I'm frustrated that the only option to go slower is too turn off XP. 

 

But the market...It's really easy to ignore if you want.  In fact, you can level up to 50 and not play the market once - you still earn inf, still get enhancements and can still craft away...I don't do the enhancement converter game, at all, I have a lot, haven't tried to sell them yet, I'm just not interested...

 

2.) However, removing the Enhancement Converters from Reward Merits sounds like a case of "I got what I wanted, but now you can't get the same".  While having them there means the price might stay low, removing them only ensures that those who already have them can earn more influence for theirs and no one else gets to play in the sandbox...doesn't sound fair...

 

3.) It is a double blind market - prices are going to go up and down based on supply/demand...My thoughts are let the long term work itself out...there are always levers the dev's can pull later if it continues to be a big problem (remove seeded items from the market, increase the cost for converters, etc)...but it feels too soon to worry...

[MunkiLord]

Influence and high end builds being easier to come by will keep me playing longer. I don't want to spend hundreds of hours per character to get them where I want them.

[Robotech_Master]

Well, to play devil's advocate here, powerleveling and tricking out your build are not necessarily as unrelated as you would think. They're both part of the process of building the best, most powerful character that you possibly can. And both XP and powerful IO sets are a lot easier to come by now than they were on live. I do like that from the point of view of it being easier to build the kind of character you want to build without all the grinding you used to have to do, but I do wonder whether they don't have a point about things being too easy.

 

But I do think the game would have to lose a ton of people before it got that hard to raise the funds to keep it going. After all, I was playing the last time they opened--and closed--their request for fundraising, and saw just how short a time they were able to do it in. So what if maybe someday it takes a whole day instead of only twenty minutes? I don't doubt they'll manage to get by.

[justicebeliever]

Well, to play devil's advocate here, powerleveling and tricking out your build are not necessarily as unrelated as you would think. They're both part of the process of building the best, most powerful character that you possibly can. And both XP and powerful IO sets are a lot easier to come by now than they were on live. I do like that from the point of view of it being easier to build the kind of character you want to build without all the grinding you used to have to do, but I do wonder whether they don't have a point about things being too easy.

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear (and rereading, I really wasn't - sorry)

Player Type #1 - Powerleveler - needs to lvl quick and make a lot of inf...

If you make it harder for this person to lvl faster or earn inf, they are just going to leave (HC is not the only game in town)...So making it more a slog for them loses the player anyway

 

Player Type #2 - Casual Gamer - they don't have to engage in the market at all if they don't want to.  Making it harder or easier to earn inf in the market is pretty irrelevant to them...

 

But I do think the game would have to lose a ton of people before it got that hard to raise the funds to keep it going. After all, I was playing the last time they opened--and closed--their request for fundraising, and saw just how short a time they were able to do it in. So what if maybe someday it takes a whole day instead of only twenty minutes? I don't doubt they'll manage to get by.

 

This is spot on Robotech Master (BTW - I love the name...Carl Macek was a genius) - They had several thousand players for several years without having to do the broad fundraising they are doing now.  I really don't see in the short term having any fundraising issues even if the server pop was cut in half overnight...Long Term is more difficult to say, but too early to worry about

 

And so I am clear, I'm advocating for not removing the Enhancement Converters from Reward Merits