Two possible changes for Stalker...

[Haijinx]

11 hours ago, Lockpick said:

 

I'm not really a Bio fan, although a lot of people love it.  I did a KM/EA to 50 + incarnates and when compared to my EM/EA the KM/EA was weak.  Somewhat surprised you didn't like the StJ/SR since that character performs very well for me, but if you didn't like the them it is what it is.  What kind of theme do you like?  Maybe we can help with a build...

 

I am working on a MA stalker that I shelved because it felt weak, same with Ninja Blade, Staff the jury is still out.  The good news is there a lot of combinations, so you will likely find something that aligns with your theme and character background and that always make a character more enjoyable for me.

 

Stalker are very survivable.  I am finding that Inv, SR, SD, and EA are very strong secondaries.  I was thinking EA was top dog, but I'm starting to lean towards SD because you can soft-cap M, R, and AOE and cap S/L resistance making the character pretty survivable.  Limited heal or endurance management, but can be addressed in the Epic or Incarnates.

I like EA because the silhouette aspect is easier on my poor old eyes. 

 

Numberwise Invul looks very very good on Stalkers

 

SR looks good as well compared to scrappers with hide plugging that low level AOE def hole caused by evasion being level 35. 

[tidge]

There is a distinct forum for suggestions for the developers to consider. I cannot promise that passions run cooler there, but chances are good that a suggestion made there will be greeted with some cold, uncaring numbers presented in the service of explaining game balance.

 

When a person makes a specific suggestion about changing an AT in the sub-forum for a particular AT, the chances are good that the folks who frequent that specific forum will have a very rich set of opinions about the suggestion, and the suggester will have to stomach that rich stew or face the possibility of a bellyache.

 

No matter how it is sliced, suggesting a change to an AT's inherent, on the sub-forum for the AT, is going to get reactions.

 

Writing only for myself: I'd like the Brute AT a LOT more if I didn't have to fuss over the Fury bar. I've yet to make a suggestion about how the Brute's Inherent can be improved so I'd have more fun with the AT.

[Madae]

4 minutes ago, tidge said:

There is a distinct forum for suggestions for the developers to consider. I cannot promise that passions run cooler there, but chances are good that a suggestion made there will be greeted with some cold, uncaring numbers presented in the service of explaining game balance.

 

When a person makes a specific suggestion about changing an AT in the sub-forum for a particular AT, the chances are good that the folks who frequent that specific forum will have a very rich set of opinions about the suggestion, and the suggester will have to stomach that rich stew or face the possibility of a bellyache.

 

No matter how it is sliced, suggesting a change to an AT's inherent, on the sub-forum for the AT, is going to get reactions.

 

Writing only for myself: I'd like the Brute AT a LOT more if I didn't have to fuss over the Fury bar. I've yet to make a suggestion about how the Brute's Inherent can be improved so I'd have more fun with the AT.

 

I suggest you read the last paragraph of the OP to understand why I decided to post this here. Further, you can't deny that getting the input of people who actively play the AT is unnecessary when asking about changes and/or feedback, especially considering the information I've received about it that lead me to believe there are several ways of going about making these changes for better or worse, as opposed to anyone who decides to stumble in and agree or disagree with something posted in the feedback forum, and whether that person comes with an "acceptable" level of experience with the AT or not. That being said, and despite the fact that you'll probably go there right after this and thumb it down (which I would find rather childish, but whatever), I posted in the feedback forum shortly after this thread started to become more active for the one specific change I think is easier to agree to, and left out the other that had much more argument about it.

[tidge]

Communication on a message board strike me as more civil and with less attitude when posts are constructed without trying to include the words "you", "him", or "her" in every other sentence; especially when there is a tendency to attribute motives, attitudes, and thoughts to other people.

[Lockpick]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Writing only for myself: I'd like the Brute AT a LOT more if I didn't have to fuss over the Fury bar. I've yet to make a suggestion about how the Brute's Inherent can be improved so I'd have more fun with the AT.

 

Stalkers were designed to play with the AS from Hide while Brutes were designed with Fury.  The Stalker has evolved to be more of a Scrapper with limited incentive to play with AS from Hide, which was a core feature of the original design.  The OP making a suggestion to have the Stalker work more as designed is somewhat different from suggesting the Brute AT play the way you want.  OP is merely suggesting there should be some options to make the Stalker have a reason to AS from Hide.  I actually like the suggestion because it would be nice to have equivalent options.

 

Option 1 you do AS from Hide

Option 2 you use non-AS from Hide attack chain

 

Both options have around the equivalent damage.

 

What is the concern?  You can play your way, OP can play their way, and since they are fundamentally equivalent you can switch it up for fun.

 

IMO, if the Live Devs saw the way the Stalker is being played today due to the ATOs I would bet money they would change the ATOs to get the AT closer to the original design or would make an adjustment to make AS from Hide relevant.

 

Of course, this is all theorizing, I don't see it changing because even though I would prefer a change like OP mentions I think the AT is still in a good enough place.  That being said, Stalker was still at the bottom of the AT (Non-HEAT/VEAT) played statistics.  If Stalkers were so good they would be played more, right?  There are twice as many Scrappers as Stalkers and three times as many Brutes.

 

Brute: 178K

Scrapper: 122K

Tanker: 95K

Stalker: 59K

 

I'm betting that Tanker numbers have increased significantly and Stalkers have not since the last statistics.

 

[Madae]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

Communication on a message board strike me as more civil and with less attitude when posts are constructed without trying to include the words "you", "him", or "her" in every other sentence; especially when there is a tendency to attribute motives, attitudes, and thoughts to other people.

 

Perhaps we're both just tired and letting our imaginations of our perceived hostilities get to us. I won't deny I can come off as blunt and/or terse, and I will be sarcastic about it, but my intention is not to fight with people. This is why I chose to ignore certain people in this thread rather than give in to their attempts to fence over something I don't believe is an argument that can, or needs to be won.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Madae

[nihilii]

A friendly reminder to nobody in particular, video recording is allowed again! There's no more reason to hint at "awesome things my build can do, if only you could be there to witness it, ah, shame shame you can't see it". If you're doing something awesome and want to share, just upload it on Youtube.

[FUBARczar]

21 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Well spoken...

 

For someone who hasn't done it or witnessed it.

 

For those who have, we all already know. 😂🤪

lol, DB is a lower tier set and the combos are better on non-Stalkers

 

Sadly I took the time to make a mids of the build you posted...  I don't mean to be harsh but that build is average at best.  Your resist numbers other than S/L are woefully lacking, you skipped Disrupt which actually works pretty we at mitigation most of the time, especially when combined with a better set like EM, StJ, etc. to stack stuns.  And the Regen was kinda low too.

 

and this "I don't copy and paste mids, we should all have to work it a little to appreciate the intricacies." is so BS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MaximusPrime]

16 hours ago, Haijinx said:

I like EA because the silhouette aspect is easier on my poor old eyes. 

 

Numberwise Invul looks very very good on Stalkers

 

SR looks good as well compared to scrappers with hide plugging that low level AOE def hole caused by evasion being level 35. 

EA is solid and "pretty" to look at

 

From experience Invulnerability can be really solid on Stalkers.

 

But I find Shield to be superior to SR.  So many times have I teamed with good players using SR and their health bar rides a freaking roller coaster and they take noticeably more dirt naps on SR than others.  Maybe it's all the +4/8 content all the time but SR is not malleable, it seems brittle.  Super Strong until *SNAP*!

[FUBARczar]

On 6/15/2021 at 5:57 PM, arcane said:

SwitchFade and myself and others have all literally offered to show people things in game so... that kinda works against what you’re implying here doesn’t it.

 

Oddly enough no one ever takes you up on it. It’s almost like people would rather be right than be helped.

Hit me up @Mr.FUBAR on Excel I'd like to see it.

Edited June 17, 2021 by FUBARczar
spelling

[arcane]

11 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Hit me up @Mr.FUAR on Excel I'd like to see it.

I don’t know exactly what I’m signing up for here as I haven’t read all of the posts in the thread. Were you actually in the OP’s camp of Stalkers being mediocre? Was there a specific concern? Am I about to be held to some standard I don’t ever think about like that pylon mumbo jumbo or do you just want to see a Stalker ripping mobs up.

 

But sure I’ll play my new Stalker some after work. 

Edited June 16, 2021 by arcane

[ZemX]

14 hours ago, Lockpick said:

The OP making a suggestion to have the Stalker work more as designed is somewhat different from suggesting the Brute AT play the way you want.

 

This is an appeal to authority.   The idea is that the suggestion is more "correct" because it matches the original design of Stalkers.  Yet the original design of Stalkers was changed by those very same Live devs to be something more scrappy on teams.  

 

The truth is that both are just opinions on how someone would like the AT to play.  Dressing one up as more deserving than the other because it adheres to a concept even the original devs abandoned isn't convincing.

Edited June 16, 2021 by ZemX

[FUBARczar]

17 hours ago, Sancerre said:

 

not a stab at you personally but i find it amusing that you are one of the few people to ADMIT this.  everyone else hating on this topic probably has the same opinion here and doesnt want to acknowledge it.  IF the team did end up buffing hidden strikes and placate to the point where it was 'mathematically superior', you would not want to continue your current stalker playstyle even if the (potential) changes fundamentally did not alter your current stalker playstyle.

 

i made very vague/broad suggestions early into the topic but it doesnt need to be that hidden strike just does 'more damage'.  it can provide a limited buff to all sorts of things (recharge, endurance recovery, to-hit, defense)... it can give a flat heal or endurance chunk... it can place a strong debuff on the enemy (-damage%, -regen, -to hit, -defense, -resistance)...

 

if we want to go down the road of more damage though we can also just look at it differently than just pumping up the numbers directly.  as a thought... what if it attached a 'bomb' debuff to the target that 'explodes' on death or after a certain amount of hits for a medium AoE nuke (probably via pseudo pets)... which could serve to shore up the limited AoE stalker has.  Or some kind of scaling DoT that could cement stalker as the AV killer.  hidden strike could also just be kinda boring and provide a buff bonus to damage or crit chance.

 

and im sure others can think of more creative applications/possibilities to occur with hidden strikes.  the key here though is that some of these things would not necessarily provide a benefit over the unhidden strike in all situations.  you would need to balance the opportunity cost of casting the long hidden strike.  there could still be plenty of opportunity to use unhidden strikes as well.  the difference being that there could potentially be a good opportunity cost to actually USING hidden strike.

 

the reality as it current stands is that it is never 'mathematically superior' to do the hidden strike because #1 it is a waste of time to wait for hidden and #2 it is a waste of time to CAST the hidden strike.  and beyond that there is no unique benefits to use hidden strike either because it provides no alternate benefits.  the only real purpose to hidden strike currently is for theme or because you havent used it in a while and you just feel like 'why the hell not'.  we dont need to create the inverse situation here.  unhidden strike does not need to become the 'mathematically inferior' version at the end of the day.  if well designed/balanced, they can both be useful depending on the situation infront of you.

 

i think there is opportunity to evolve stalker into something unique instead of just an alternate scrapper.  it seems like this thought scares people more than it excites people however...

 

and as a general statement to the topic at hand -- yes i understand this same conversation occurred with instant snipes, but sniping was never the center focus and iconic theme of the blasting powersets.  you are given hide at level 1 and the AT passive has a nice paragraph about it... who else has hidden assassins strikes?? cause i see tons of archetypes have snipes (stalkers have snipes!)

I mostly agree with you and Oysterhead.  And Stalker is my second most played AT. 

 

Personally going back to a Stalker must start with AS from Hide (or making AS from Hide so good that you kind of need to do it) is the wrong direction for Stalkers.  Fast AS was a fantastic evolution to the power and the AT.  I really think that the only things Stalkers NEED (not want) is:

 

*** Buff underperforming sets.  Dark Melee has been tweaked nicely, so more of that for other sets.  One way to do that is to just bring back some of the AoE to sets like MA, which was already light on AoE in its original Scrapper-form.

 

and as a bonus it would be nice if:

The Focus system was more reliable.  It's a great idea/mechanic.

 

[SwitchFade]

2 hours ago, FUBARczar said:

lol, DB is a lower tier set and the combos are better on non-Stalkers

 

Sadly I took the time to make a mids of the build you posted...  I don't mean to be harsh but that build is average at best.  Your resist numbers other than S/L are woefully lacking, you skipped Disrupt which actually works pretty we at mitigation most of the time, especially when combined with a better set like EM, StJ, etc. to stack stuns.  And the Regen was kinda low too.

 

and this "I don't copy and paste mids, we should all have to work it a little to appreciate the intricacies." is so BS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The fact you're actually staying that DB on a stalker is low tier reveals your apparent inexperience with the set, and stalkers as a whole. Further, considering what EA is built for, and the fact you haven't actually done more than "copy it to mids," your feedback on "mitigation" has little merit. I can tank Multiple GMs damage output, AV damage output... that's not "mids copy and paste" that's experience.

 

As I said, those who have actually made one.... Know.

 

And DB is 490+dps, marginally behind stj/em, maybe. I've managed 500+ on many occasions.

 

You can call anything you like BS; however, it's quite amusing that you're actually proving the point of my statement that we should all have to work for it, with your "mids"  Go one step further, make the toon.

[Naraka]

16 hours ago, Sancerre said:

 

not a stab at you personally but i find it amusing that you are one of the few people to ADMIT this.  everyone else hating on this topic probably has the same opinion here and doesnt want to acknowledge it.

 

Not everyone. Plenty of people did make similar compromising statements, myself included. 

 

My previous statement was pretty much saying, if they wanted to add to hidden AS somehow to make it more attractive, adding to it's defensive nature like better fear chance, longer duration or higher -ToHit that is resistable on demoralize could be a possible arguing point. Asking to do more damage tho, is unnecessary and just rocking the boat of the meta in your favor. 

 

I think it'd be cool to make each AT have variations of their inherent abilities to use to your liking (Blaster with old Desperation, for example) so that Stalkers can have a super killer AS *BUT* you should have to give up Assassin's Focus along with the team scaling crit for it. Just adding more on top of more is just asking for everyone and their dog to get more. Stalkers already have a laundry list of special unique effects granted to their AT, they don't need a super-killy shadow mode too...

 

And the argument that the AT was designed to be that way; that was before they morphed the AT into a mutation of Scrapper and unless you're willing to give that up, don't expect to get more cake unless you go to cake.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I don’t know exactly what I’m signing up for here as I haven’t read all of the posts in the thread. Were you actually in the OP’s camp of Stalkers being mediocre? Was there a specific concern? Am I about to be held to some standard I don’t ever think about like that pylon mumbo jumbo or do you just want to see a Stalker ripping mobs up.

 

But sure I’ll play my new Stalker some after work. 

Stalker is my second most played AT.  I think Stalkers are fine and the only real need to buff the low hanging fruit sets.  And that the Focus mechanic is great but could benefit from improved reliability.

 

I am just curious after all this talk about SwitchFade's Stalker that I want to appreciate it in action.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Stalker is my second most played AT.  I think Stalkers are fine and the only real need to buff the low hanging fruit sets.  And that the Focus mechanic is great but could benefit from improved reliability.

 

I am just curious after all this talk about SwitchFade's Stalker that I want to appreciate it in action.

Well I’m now pretty firmly in the “Stalkers are really good” camp, but you’re probably ahead of me. They’re one of my least played AT’s at only 3 level 50’s (tied with 3 50 scrappers and only ahead of 2 50 sentinels... edit: wait, 3 masterminds too). That being said, my new Electric/Ice wants for nothing right now.

Edited June 16, 2021 by arcane

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, SwitchFade said:

The fact you're actually staying that DB on a stalker is low tier reveals your apparent inexperience with the set, and stalkers as a whole. Further, considering what EA is built for, and the fact you haven't actually done more than "copy it to mids," your feedback on "mitigation" has little merit. I can tank Multiple GMs damage output, AV damage output... that's not "mids copy and paste" that's experience.

 

As I said, those who have actually made one.... Know.

 

And DB is 490+dps, marginally behind stj/em, maybe. I've managed 500+ on many occasions.

 

You can call anything you like BS; however, it's quite amusing that you're actually proving the point of my statement that we should all have to work for it, with your "mids"  Go one step further, make the toon.

Looking at your build I would never make that.  Why not?  One I don't like playing Dual Blades (personal tastes), and two I simply wouldn't slot things the way you do.

 

And I have tons of experience and feats and etc with Stalkers.  In fact, I said to arcane to hit me up, I would genuinely like to see you in action.  I'd love to do a team up.  

 

here are some of the Stalkers that I have experience with (50s): DM/Invuln, Psi/Bio, Psi/Rad, Elec/Fire, Rad/SD, EM/Dark, StJ/Invuln, DM/Ice, Ice/Ice, Staff/WP, Staff/Ice, StJ/Ice, Rad/Dark, Ice/Rad, EM/SR, Spine/WP, Savage/Dark, KM/WP, KM/EA, Claws/EA, Elec/Ninja, etc. 

 

I've solo'd +4/8 MoITF twice w/o inspirations, once on DM/Invuln and once on Rad/SD.  A fun group of people I play with online have done many MoITF challenges, 4-man same AT +4/8 MoITF for time (no deaths/temps/inspirations):  26:18 STALKERS @dayday(StJ/DA) @EV(Fire/SR) @Mr.FUBAR(Psi/Rad) @lucas(Elec/SD)

 

We also have been running the same (as above) but also with players debuffed and enemies buffed.  And I'd love to find some fellow Stalkers to do some successful runs with in under 30 mins.

 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Well I’m now pretty firmly in the “Stalkers are really good” camp, but you’re probably ahead of me. They’re one of my least played AT’s at only 3 level 50’s (tied with 3 50 scrappers and only ahead of 2 50 sentinels... edit: wait, 3 masterminds too). That being said, my new Electric/Ice wants for nothing right now.

Stalkers are great so you are missing out.  For my I have more Blasters then it's Stalkers, Sentinels, Dominators, Brutes, Scrappers, Corruptors, Defenders, Tanks, Controllers, then a Fortunata.  1 MM but I really dislike MMs.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

Stalkers are great so you are missing out.  For my I have more Blasters then it's Stalkers, Sentinels, Dominators, Brutes, Scrappers, Corruptors, Defenders, Tanks, Controllers, then a Fortunata.  1 MM but I really dislike MMs.

I’m getting around to it now. Originally it was just that melee interested me less than ranged, but >15 defenders, 10 blasters, 10 controllers, etc later and that is starting to rapidly change. And then I got addicted to Tankers because they’re so easy to build (much like Blasters). 
 

If I had to agree with an AT still needing some more attention, it’d probably be for Sentinels, Masterminds, and Dominators. Though I’d only think they need minor tweaks (except Sentinels, which may need a larger revamp IMO).

[Naraka]

4 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m getting around to it now. Originally it was just that melee interested me less than ranged, but >15 defenders, 10 blasters, 10 controllers, etc later and that is starting to rapidly change. And then I got addicted to Tankers because they’re so easy to build (much like Blasters). 
 

If I had to agree with an AT still needing some more attention, it’d probably be for Sentinels, Masterminds, and Dominators. Though I’d only think they need minor tweaks (except Sentinels, which may need a larger revamp IMO).

 

MM is another one of those ATs that is heavily benifitty by their ATOs but I think it's a more dire situation with them and their pets.

[arcane]

Just now, Naraka said:

 

MM is another one of those ATs that is heavily benifitty by their ATOs but I think it's a more dire situation with them and their pets.

I think MM’s are great at survivability and single target damage, but they are so clunky and unfun for me to play after awhile. To play them correctly you’re always resummoning crappy minions, always fiddling with macro commands, and not doing a whole lot of big flashy powers. Fun against AV’s but just tedious against +4x8 mobs IMO.

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

I think MM’s are great at survivability and single target damage, but they are so clunky and unfun for me to play after awhile. To play them correctly you’re always resummoning crappy minions, always fiddling with macro commands, and not doing a whole lot of big flashy powers. Fun against AV’s but just tedious against +4x8 mobs IMO.

I tried playing an MM but it felt like it was playing me.  Not my style.  

 

As for Doms, I love but they are slightly underpowered.  They should have the same base damage modifiers as Blasters do but in Reverse.

 

Current Base Damage Modifier:

Blaster (Range/Melee) - 1.125 / 1.00

Dominator (R/M) - 0.95 / 1.05 (So Dominators should be 1.00 / 1.125

 

And Sentinels need a damage bump and a reworked Inherent

 

 

[tidge]

We've had some very polite and informative conversations about potential "changes" for Masterminds over on that subforum, and there has been some analysis of 'raw damage' from the henchmen in the suggestions forum.

 

I even have my own favorite dead horse... which on the surface looks to be completely in the realm of an idea I think @Captain Powerhouse has expressed no interest in visiting (auto upgrades for Henchmen) but my specific suggestion is IMO more subtle and different than the typical ask for auto-upgrades of henchmen.

 

 

I'm not linking the above here because of a sense of self-importance, but because: much like the Stalkers have a common layout in terms of primary power choices (not to mention the default Hide in the secondary), Masterminds have a rather formulaic primary power layout... but in the case of MMs it's just that some of the primaries have powers that leverage the ATO/Pet Enhancement pieces MUCH more effectively than other primaries and by rejiggering one of the powers common to all MMs, we could smooth out the performance of all the MM primaries.

[siolfir]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

If I had to agree with an AT still needing some more attention, it’d probably be for Sentinels, Masterminds, and Dominators. Though I’d only think they need minor tweaks (except Sentinels, which may need a larger revamp IMO).

Honestly, even Sentinels could be fine with minor tweaks - although people would still complain about their inherent, which bad as it is, is leaps and bounds ahead of the Widow/Soldier (lack of) inherent*. Put the blast sets back to their normal range, and fix the target caps. Some sets would still need balance passes against others, but that's true for every AT.

 

As for the topic of this thread... meh. Personally I feel that Stalkers are the most balanced melee AT (which isn't saying much) and even more balanced for content than Blasters currently are, and don't need any buffs. Which is pretty unusual if you know my posting history on the old forums.

 

I was one of the people pushing for Stalker buffs before, which led to PM discussions with Synapse on the old forums. Assassin's Focus doesn't trigger as often on some sets because it's based around the base recharge of the power with a 10 second base recharge being a guaranteed stack (it's a precursor to the PPM mechanics that procs turned into!) - which is why you'll see it's more reliable on Energy Melee (5, 6, 8, 10, and 20 second recharges) compared to Kinetic Melee (3, 5, 7, 8 and 20 second recharges). This was done deliberately to prevent people from just spamming the recharges-faster-than-it-animates powers to guarantee three stacks, and the high critical chance per stack was to compensate for it being less reliable if that's what you chose to do: as mentioned, 2 stacks is still a better chance to critical than not (66%), so you just relied on RNG to balance it out. Extending the duration of the stacks to fall off less often probably wouldn't hurt anything, but them being unreliable was a conscious design decision that if you find annoying... well, join the club. But know that it was done that way on purpose and so changing it should ideally indicate that it's a clear detriment rather than "hey, I don't like <thing>."

 

As for boosting AS from Hide - it already has a great mitigation component with the Demoralize effect already. Boosting the damage to make the DPA the same between a fast critical (scale 5.52 in 1.188 sec) and from hide critical would involve boosting the base damage of AS from 389.2752 (scale 7.0 in 3.168 sec) to 818.5824 (scale 14.72); the "slow" base attack without a critical is scale 2.50 so that would be going from a 2.8x (not 3x) critical to a 5.888x critical. So your numbers are close, but the old slow AS did scale 7 damage (scale 1 base, +6 on the critical), it was providing a cap for melee damage for a long time (the only melee power that hits harder is Crushing Uppercut at combo 3 with a critical), and it was pretty clear that there wasn't any intent to raise the damage on it. So while you're welcome to ask the devs for this, it will likely come at the cost of something for the name of balance - which is where the objections are coming in - and reasons for it beyond "I would like this thing for an AT I'm not enjoying, so please change it for me" have not been provided (hint: there's some math in this paragraph you could try to use, but you'd still have to justify why desiring people to use slow AS is something that justifies the large increase in burst damage that they haven't wanted to move on in 16 years).

 

* - yes, I know, it's increased recovery. And yet they still run out all the time and have to build for endurance just like every other AT, so it may as well not exist