Taunt aura for all scrapper secondaries?

[Koopak]

47 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Using identical builds for claws/sr, the scrapper takes down a pylon in 3 mins, the brute 4. That works out to around 341 DPS for the scrap and 288 for the brute. Scrap is doing 18% more damage. So that's certainly in line with your 10-20 figure.

Not sure where you're getting the 250% more survivable, though, when the brute gets identical base values and only 12% more HP.

I dont have the math on hand but quick aside. Durability is multiplicative across hp, regen, defense, and resistance. A small increase in one has drastic impacts on others.

( 100hp / ( 1 - ( .5 (base to hit +0) + .45 (defense cap) ) ) ) / ( 1 - (  .75 (resist cap) ) )
8,000 effective hp

( 112hp / ( 1 - ( .5 (base to hit +0) + .45 (defense cap) ) ) ) / ( 1 - (  .75 (resist cap) ) )
8,960 effective hp

Still technically 12% difference but that 12% is a lot bigger considering its mostly AVs that hit hard enough to cover that gap and we are playing with 100 hp and this is with scrapper resists, hitting 90% resist on a brute isn't that hard on many sets so more like

( 112hp / ( 1 - ( .5 (base to hit +0) + .45 (defense cap) ) ) ) / ( 1 - (  .9 (resist cap) ) )
22,400 effective hp

Which should really drive the point home how much the resist differences matter. Its one thing if Brutes struggle to get above 75% but in my experience... they really don't unless they are non resist sets.

That said I have no stake in the matter, im content with where Brutes vs Scrapper are.

(*says he doesn't have the math, does the math anyways*)

Edited June 21, 2021 by Koopak

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Koopak said:

Which should really drive the point home how much the resist differences matter. Its one thing is Brutes struggle to get above 75% but in my experience... they really dont unless they are non resist sets.

 

But by your math, that's still only 180% more mitigation (not the 250% stated earlier) and the brute has to constantly be running at both the defense softcap and damres hard cap 100% of the time. I know none of mine do that. Generally speaking, especially where def debuffs are in play, (yea, ok, I like the ITF a bit much) my resist based sets are sitting in negative defense land unless I've got ageless radial cranked. And sometimes even then.

 

But back on topic, yes please to taunt auras for scrappers.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Koopak]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

But by your math, that's still only 180% more mitigation (not the 250% stated earlier) and the brute has to constantly be running at both the defense softcap and damres hard cap 100% of the time. I know none of mine do that. Generally speaking, especially where def debuffs are in play, (yea, ok, I like the ITF a bit much) my resist based sets are sitting in negative defense land unless I've got ageless radial cranked. And sometimes even then.

I'm not defending that "250%" number. As far as I know that number was pulled from whole cloth and has no basis in the mechanics. Also my point wasnt to say "Look how much stronger Brutes are at there optimal" but "Look how much stronger they can be" because those numbers are inexcessible to Scrappers, period. If you get even 5% over 75, yer taking the remaining 25% damage and reducing it be a relative value of 20%.

I also don't see the value in pointing out defense debuffs exists. We all get bodied by those unless our names are Super Reflexes or Energy Aura my dude. Scrappers are just as affected, and in an essentially linear fashion so Brutes maintain their edge even if reduced.

*has flashbacks to trying to solo Silver Mantis yesterday on +4*

Edited June 21, 2021 by Koopak

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Koopak said:

We all get bodied by those unless our names are Super Reflexes or Energy Aura my dude.

 

Or shield. But I grok the rest of the post. So what we're really seeing here is a need to buff scrapper damage AND give them all taunt auras.

[Koopak]

9 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Or shield. But I grok the rest of the post. So what we're really seeing here is a need to buff scrapper damage AND give them all taunt auras.

Like I said I don't really see a problem with the status quo. However my Scranker brain wants to show the bad tankers I know how to do it even more so I WANT taunt auras. Doesnt mean I should have them. I'd say IF this were given serious consideration, it should be as a change to Confront (like someone said, make it a taunt aura with a pop up tray taunt maybe or make it give a taunt aura and a single target taunt) or better, something that costs more, and epic or pool power. (but being a pool powers asks spooky questions like Blankers? Blasters playing Tank?)

Either way current taunt aura sets should keep theirs.

As for a scrapper damage buff? I mean... if you really want? 😆

Edift: Oh or just my prior suggestion of a 'no run zone' aura since i THINK thats doable without using the taunt mechanic, but not certain.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Koopak

[BrandX]

Tight builds getting tighter with the idea of Confront being a Taunt Aura with a pop up of single target Taunt.

 

That seems like a pretty fair idea.  Also, no need to make that Taunt Aura cost any Endurance.

 

Now, I was okay with giving some of the other sets Taunt in some of those auras, like Fire Armor (Damage is supposed to be it's mitigation) but really, this feels like a good idea.

 

Now, I will say, on the down side of this, is those with Confront who may not want to have the taunt aura but do want the single target taunt.  HOWEVER it's not often I see a Scrapper with Confront.

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

You got all that and closed the kb and slow holes? This build in your thread? Edit: Why yes, I do keep forgetting about storm kick and its +10% defense.

 

The -KB is stronger than ever thanks to Evasive Maneuvers. A single one is now enough to counter a Pylon's KB. The slow resist on the MA version isn't as good since the exotic slotting took away from using the usual culprits responsible for -slow, but on the other hand it is harder to land -recharge hits through 45% defense.

[WindDemon21]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

You got all that and closed the kb and slow holes? This build in your thread? Edit: Why yes, I do keep forgetting about storm kick and its +10% defense.

But don't forget, for the DUMBEST reason, that is only on tankers, and only brutes get 7.5% defense from it. Scrappers just get a lousy 5% more crit chance on that power alone. SO f'ing dumb... (should I drag up the thread again about bringing the 7.5% defense to scrappers, cause dang I want that)

[Bill Z Bubba]

11 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

But don't forget, for the DUMBEST reason, that is only on tankers, and only brutes get 7.5% defense from it. Scrappers just get a lousy 5% more crit chance on that power alone. SO f'ing dumb... (should I drag up the thread again about bringing the 7.5% defense to scrappers, cause dang I want that)

 

I hear ya.

[Riverdusk]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Using identical builds for claws/sr, the scrapper takes down a pylon in 3 mins, the brute 4. That works out to around 341 DPS for the scrap and 288 for the brute. Scrap is doing 18% more damage. So that's certainly in line with your 10-20 figure.

Not sure where you're getting the 250% more survivable, though, when the brute gets identical base values and only 12% more HP.

 

13 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

 still seems imbalanced to me for certain sets. 

 

Certain sets,  my whole point was about the resistance cap if you read the other posts in the discussion.  At resistance cap a brute is taking 10 damage per 100 vs. a scrapper taking 25.  10 x 2.5 = 25.  Not even including the extra hps.  Several brutes/scrappers can hit resistance caps to some of the most common damage types decently easily.  Yeah, SR (which I know is your laser focus) not so much, sorry.

 

Probably I'm getting off topic though, but I'm just bringing up things in response to those shooting down any suggestion of any scrapper changes unless "brutes get something too".  And it seems a lot of that actually stems from the tank buff, and has nothing to do with scrappers in reality.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

Probably I'm getting off topic though, but I'm just bringing up things in response to those shooting down any suggestion of any scrapper changes unless "brutes get something too".  And it seems a lot of that actually stems from the tank buff, and has nothing to do with scrappers in reality.

 

Not at all. I see no reason why scrappers shouldn't have taunt auras just like brutes. Full stop.

 

Everything else going on between the 4 melee sets is an entirely different conversation that has gone nowhere and never will.

[Haijinx]

On 6/21/2021 at 1:59 PM, WindDemon21 said:

But don't forget, for the DUMBEST reason, that is only on tankers, and only brutes get 7.5% defense from it. Scrappers just get a lousy 5% more crit chance on that power alone. SO f'ing dumb... (should I drag up the thread again about bringing the 7.5% defense to scrappers, cause dang I want that)

 

You could get a really high crit chance on SK by stacking Eagle Claw, ATOs ... 

 

And so on.   Its a lot easier to get def with IOs than crit chance.

[ScarySai]

Would be fine by me.

 

Bonus if it's weak enough to have a brute or whatever rip threat easily, but strong enough to stop runners that get tagged by your damage aura.

[WindDemon21]

On 6/26/2021 at 5:27 PM, Haijinx said:

 

You could get a really high crit chance on SK by stacking Eagle Claw, ATOs ... 

 

And so on.   Its a lot easier to get def with IOs than crit chance.

Not 7.5% to ALL (except psy i think) in just using one power that you already use all the time though. an additional 5% crit chance is complete BS in comparison, that's (for those that can do math) only a 5% average move damage over time, and JUST on that one skill as well. If it would give say, like a 10% extra crit chance to ALL skills to stack with EC then i would agree but 5%, for ONLY that power versus a 7.5% defense to all bonus? NOT even a contest.

[VV]

Heck, I don't even take Confront on my Scrappers. (Although with the seemingly new "run away more" function on the opponents, I might see if I can work it in.)  I wouldn't want them to burn a secondary power slot on an aggro aura. Just gimme MOAR DAMAGEEE!

[Haijinx]

5 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Not 7.5% to ALL (except psy i think) in just using one power that you already use all the time though. an additional 5% crit chance is complete BS in comparison, that's (for those that can do math) only a 5% average move damage over time, and JUST on that one skill as well. If it would give say, like a 10% extra crit chance to ALL skills to stack with EC then i would agree but 5%, for ONLY that power versus a 7.5% defense to all bonus? NOT even a contest.

 

True.  But generally scrappers have enough survivability they don't ever die.  So you have to weigh this in also.   Storm Kick is the highest DPA in the set.

 

So lets say we have a MA/NIN scrapper with the +Big Crit chance ATO in Eagles claw, which also provides a crit bonus.  You could go Eagle's Claw from ninja hide, to Storm Kick.  You would have a very high crit chance on both attacks.  Then follow up with some other attacks till Eagle's Claw is up again and repeat.   

 

Maybe not Stalker level of crits, but about as close as a scrapper will come.   And since Stalker MA is ST only, a pretty good alternative.  Plus Scrapper NIN is a good set, that you can softcap easily no need for the 7.5% there.

[WindDemon21]

37 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

True.  But generally scrappers have enough survivability they don't ever die.  So you have to weigh this in also.   Storm Kick is the highest DPA in the set.

 

So lets say we have a MA/NIN scrapper with the +Big Crit chance ATO in Eagles claw, which also provides a crit bonus.  You could go Eagle's Claw from ninja hide, to Storm Kick.  You would have a very high crit chance on both attacks.  Then follow up with some other attacks till Eagle's Claw is up again and repeat.   

 

Maybe not Stalker level of crits, but about as close as a scrapper will come.   And since Stalker MA is ST only, a pretty good alternative.  Plus Scrapper NIN is a good set, that you can softcap easily no need for the 7.5% there.

Those may stack, but they don't multiply on each other like defense bonuses do. You're also forgetting the biggest thing, which is that that 7,5% defense to all, lets you REALLY ease up the build more where that defense can be used, allowing for you to slot more bonuses and procs to alleviate the build. Not to also mention, that that extra crit from the ato, and eagles claw, will work on every other attack you do, whereas that 5% extra crit on just storm kick alone ONLY works for storm kick. Its really NOT a contest to which is better, that 7.5% defense bonus would hands down help out any build better than 5% more crit on just storm kick would do.

 

And for the record, as you just stated, my martial arts scrapper IS ma/nin, past soft cap, and i would still much rather have that 7.5% defense to loosen the build rather than a crappy 5% more crit on just one attack, ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE.