Rebuilding rage.

[arcane]

You’re all good people. I’m gonna smoke a bowl and forget all my inane internet fights.

[Haijinx]

27 minutes ago, DrInfernus said:

But I don’t think anyone believes there shouldn’t be a cost and there shouldn’t be balance. 

 

Oh.  There are some that believe that. 

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

If it's the only set that has to take a penalty, then good balance should indicate it'd be above them.

 

What is “it” in this sentence? Super Strength, or Rage? If you mean Super Strength itself, then no. If they’d given Super Strength a power that is simply much better than any other power in any other melee set, and consequently Super Strength itself was also much better than any other melee set, that would be the opposite of balance.

[DrInfernus]

2 minutes ago, arcane said:

(1) Sometimes. Some of my fav heroes sure get tired. (2) Why is it a problem for a set to not be #1? As long as it’s not one of the worst in the game I sure don’t care.

I feel like you aren’t listening to what people are telling you though. No one is advocating for SS to be the best set in the game. 

 

But it’s not a dichotomy here of massive damage crash or ridiculously overpowered set and, I may be wrong and apologies if I am, it looks like you’re trying to reduce the discussion to just such a dichotomy. 
 

There are many other possible costs to Rage to explore that could potentially open up SS to other people while not affecting the balance of it all. 

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

(1) Sometimes. Some of my fav heroes sure get tired. (2) Why is it a problem for a set to not be #1? As long as it’s not one of the worst in the game I sure don’t care.

no one is saying that it has to be number one.  What they are saying is the Set should be balanced without slapping some lazy and steep penalty on at the end.  The crash doesn't fit the theme of the set and is of poor design.  The rage crash was implemented as a nerf without taking the time to look at the set as a whole and rework the set as needed.  

[DrInfernus]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

 

Oh.  There are some that believe that. 

Well I’m certainly not one of them, fwiw 👍🏻

[Lazarillo]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

What is “it” in this sentence? Super Strength, or Rage? If you mean Super Strength itself, then no. If they’d given Super Strength a power that is simply much better than any other power in any other melee set, and consequently Super Strength itself was also much better than any other melee set, that would be the opposite of balance.

I must have missed the part where "it makes you useless to the point you might as well alt-tab and do something else every two minutes" is somehow "simply much better than any other power in any other melee set".

 

Rage = The only melee power that penalizes the player for using it

Should therefore also be

Rage = Should make that melee set stand above others to compensate for that penalty.

 

Thanks to the specific penalty invoked, I'd never call SS fun, personally, regardless.  But that's a somewhat different argument, and the point remains that as long as it's the only set that has to pay to achieve mediocrity, it's not balanced.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Lazarillo

[DrInfernus]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

I must have missed the part where "it makes you useless to the point you might as well alt-tab and do something else every two minutes" is somehow "simply much better than any other power in any other melee set".

 

Rage = The only melee power that penalizes the player for using it

Should therefore also be

Rage = Should make that melee set stand above others to compensate for that penalty.

 

Thanks to the specific penalty invoked, I'd never call SS fun, personally, regardless.  But that's a somewhat different argument, and the point remains that as long as it's the only set that has to pay to achieve mediocrity, it's not balanced.

Again, hard to disagree. My personal experience is Rage crash makes SS feel a little under powered, and changing it will bring it back up to par. I don’t see SS becoming overpowered without a root and branch rework, so I struggle to see Rage crash as the kind of honourable anchor single-handedly keeping SS from breaking the game as others apparently do. 

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Lazarillo said:

I must have missed the part where "it makes you useless to the point you might as well alt-tab and do something else every two minutes" is somehow "simply much better than any other power in any other melee set".

 

Again, fixating on the negative. The penalty period is 1/12th the length of the buff period. 6.5% of the time. And calling the player useless during this period is nothing less than hyperbole. You can still manage aggro, you can use the two AoE controls SS gets to stop the enemy attacking, both things that are well within the expected role of the tank classes Super Strength is available to.

4 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Rage = The only melee power that penalizes the player for using it

Should therefore also be

Rage = Should make that melee set stand above others to compensate for that penalty.

 

Wrong. Rage is the only melee self buff power that penalizes the player for using it, but that only means Rage itself should stand above all other melee self buff powers, and it does. 

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Thanks to the penalty, SS wouldn't be fun no matter how overpowered it hypothetically.

 

This is subjective. I have no doubt it’s true for you, but it’s undeniably one of the most popular sets in the game and no doubt plenty of people find it fun. I know I do.

 

[MaximusPrime]

Why not just removed the penalty and adjust the buff in rage to be equal to the current Rage with the poorly designed penalty? 

Why are people defending Rage as it is?  Rage makes no sense in the context of "Super Strength".

 

What is the argument for keeping rage the way it is?

Does it fit the theme of the set?

Is the set balanced?

How does the set compare if Rage was skipped?

Why is a large unresistable penalty a good idea?

 

 

 

[Hexquisite]

sigh

 

I'm starting to wonder how some people here handle traffic lights, or the time it takes to microwave a burrito...

 

It's ten bloody seconds. I never even notice it. I just keep punching.

 

Regarding thematic context... you decide the context for your character. IC, most of my characters don't "crash;" they remain as strong as they always are. IC, they don't get enraged - sometimes, I play it as getting focused. Sometimes, I play it a literal surge of power that they can't maintain indefinitely. One character doesn't actually have super-strength - her power is point-blank telekinesis, and the 'Rage' is her exerting intense, migraine-inducing mental force, which takes a lot out of her. Sometimes I even RP the crash.

 

Hm. What was my point?

 

Right. It's ten bloody seconds.

 

Maybe I just can't wrap my head around the issue.

[DrInfernus]

2 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

sigh

 

I'm starting to wonder how some people here handle traffic lights, or the time it takes to microwave a burrito...

 

It's ten bloody seconds. I never even notice it. I just keep punching.

 

Regarding thematic context... you decide the context for your character. IC, most of my characters don't "crash;" they remain as strong as they always are. IC, they don't get enraged - sometimes, I play it as getting focused. Sometimes, I play it a literal surge of power that they can't maintain indefinitely. One character doesn't actually have super-strength - her power is point-blank telekinesis, and the 'Rage' is her exerting intense, migraine-inducing mental force, which takes a lot out of her. Sometimes I even RP the crash.

 

Hm. What was my point?

 

Right. It's ten bloody seconds.

 

Maybe I just can't wrap my head around the issue.

I don’t microwave burritos or tackle traffic lights for fun, tbf 🤣

[Lazarillo]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You can still manage aggro, you can use the two AoE controls SS gets to stop the enemy attacking, both things that are well within the expected role of the tank classes Super Strength is available to.

Or just play sets that also control and keep their damage, and will therefore also hold aggro even better.  And that's not even getting into all the players who don't play with the intent of tanking in the first place and/or solo.

 

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Wrong. Rage is the only melee self buff power that penalizes the player for using it, but that only means Rage itself should stand above all other melee self buff powers, and it does. 

Rage does not stand above all other melee self buff powers because it does not buff the set its in to a level that other sets are not penalized for achieving.  The buff numbers are irrelevant if the results the produce don't measure up.

 

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

it’s undeniably one of the most popular sets in the game and no doubt plenty of people find it fun. I know I do.

Yep, and as noted, that's not what I'm calling you on here.  It's not the only set I don't have fun on, either, for whatever reason.  But I think what gets me is that it was so close to being a better set and the straight-up buff got pulled.  So it gets me more riled up, perhaps (clearly, the true Rage was the journey we shared with our friends...wait, what?).

[Hexquisite]

Just now, DrInfernus said:

I don’t microwave burritos or tackle traffic lights for fun, tbf 🤣

 

There is nothing about burritos that isn't fun.

 

...unless they're from Taco Bell. Then the aftermath isn't fun.

 

And I cannot equate Super Strength with a ten-second barely noticeable crash to the hours of torment that result from ten seconds of Taco Bell.

[Lazarillo]

6 minutes ago, Hexquisite said:

It's ten bloody seconds. I never even notice it. I just keep punching.

Cool, so then, let's just reduce the buff and remove the penalty.  You never notice doing no damage, so you won't notice doing slightly less, either, right?

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Again, fixating on the negative. The penalty period is 1/12th the length of the buff period. 6.5% of the time. And calling the player useless during this period is nothing less than hyperbole. You can still manage aggro, you can use the two AoE controls SS gets to stop the enemy attacking, both things that are well within the expected role of the tank classes Super Strength is available to.

 

Wrong. Rage is the only melee self buff power that penalizes the player for using it, but that only means Rage itself should stand above all other melee self buff powers, and it does. 

 

This is subjective. I have no doubt it’s true for you, but it’s undeniably one of the most popular sets in the game and no doubt plenty of people find it fun. I know I do.

 

It's not fixating on the negative.  It's pointing out that the power and the set is not balanced.  You are fixated in calling everyone fixated.

 

Rage does apply a buff greater than any other buff power in Melee sets hands down.  And yet the set still is only in the middle of the pack.  Thanks for highlighting how terrible the set is that even with the best buff it's still just ok.  What's more, it points out how crap the set is until you reach at least lvl 29 on Tanks.  That's over half the levels the set languishes pretty much at the bottom only to get a power that's overpowered to make up for the crap performance of the powers.  Not to mention when you first start using it and you don't have high defenses, good IO bonuses, all your powers, etc. that penalty is often e death inducing.  Oh wait you have inspirations.  So the Crash to balance the buff is so broken that you have to rely on inspirations?  It's unbalanced and bad design on every level.

 

 

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

And that's not even getting into all the players who don't play with the intent of tanking in the first place and/or solo.

 

It's hardly Super Strength's, or any other set's fault if players don't want to use it to do what it was designed to do.

 

6 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

Rage does not stand above all other melee self buff powers because it does not buff the set its in to a level that other sets are not penalized for achieving.  The buff numbers are irrelevant if the results the produce don't measure up.

 

Oh, Super Strength absolutely does stand above other sets in certain areas, just not on the time it takes to defeat enemies. It's the only set I've ever played where enemy ToHit debuffs or defense buffs are barely an inconvenience. It's the only set I've ever played where Temporary Powers are worth mixing into the attack chain because they'll actually land and do decent damage all the time. And while this isn't unique to SS, the knockdown on every attack makes it extremely survivable even against enemies your armor set is poor for, like Invulnerability against psychic enemies.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, FUBARczar said:

It's pointing out that the power and the set is not balanced. 

 

I think you better just explain what you think the word "balanced" means, because I don't think you and I are working from the same definition.

 

2 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

And yet the set still is only in the middle of the pack.  Thanks for highlighting how terrible the set is that even with the best buff it's still just ok.

 

Middle-of-the-pack =/= terrible

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Middle-of-the-pack =/= terrible

No the attacks in the set as a whole is terrible, which is why the best buff in any melee set only raises the set to a middle of the pack status.

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

No the attacks in the set as a whole is terrible, which is why the best buff in any melee set only raises the set to a middle of the pack status.

 

Still fixating on the negative! You see it as bad attacks that need an amazing buff to lift it up, I see it as an amazing buff that needs bad attacks to keep it in check.

[FUBARczar]

One main argument that I see is that Super Strength is balanced, and it's balanced around Rage.  So Rage is working more or less as intended because it buffs the set to appreciable and competitive levels when compared to other sets.  Fine, one set has to be number 1 and one hast to be last, and if SS is in the middle all is well right?

 

Well if would be except Rage is overpowered to increase the viability of the set which only has two good attack powers.  That means that the overpowered Rage is not balanced when considering powers taken from Power and Epic pools.    So that's yet another highlight of how Rage is broken, because it is not balanced concerning powers outside of the Super Strength set.  

[FUBARczar]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

 

Still fixating on the negative! You see it as bad attacks that need an amazing buff to lift it up, I see it as an amazing buff that needs bad attacks to keep it in check.

that was pointless.  They describe the same thing.  Your glass-is-half-full approach still describes a set that before the buff power is accessible does not compare favorably to its peers.  Or if one for whatever reason wanted to skip the power.  What's more that "amazing buff" spills over and in an imbalanced way (because the buff is so amazing) applies to Power and Epic Pool powers that are not balanced around Rage like the mostly low performing powers in the SS set..  

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

That means that the overpowered Rage is not balanced when considering powers taken from Power and Epic pools. 

 

A fair point, but pool attacks are intentionally undertuned compared to primary/secondary powers, not unlike Super Strength attacks, so it still doesn't unbalance Super Strength as a whole to have this advantage with non-Super Strength attacks.

[SwitchFade]

Hard no vote on reduction of rage buffs.

[SwitchFade]

28 minutes ago, FUBARczar said:

No the attacks in the set as a whole is terrible, which is why the best buff in any melee set only raises the set to a middle of the pack status.

Please post comparative damage per animation times for SS no rage, stone, ice, rad, broadsword, from t1 to t9.

 

As this was already done in another thread, I'd bet dollars to donuts it's not what you think it is. Hint: there's only 1 power that dramatically underperforms.

 

The fix the devs tried with no crash single stack only was beautiful. But the double rage glitch stackers complained loudly.