Sentinels. Why???

[Vanden]

9 minutes ago, Snarky said:

You go on believing these things do almost as much damage as Blasters.

 

Well I guess I have to, since you absolutely refuse to present any evidence to support your claim. I'm not even trying to dismiss your claims that the damage is too low, but every time it seems like you're about to point out some aspect of the game that doesn't show up on paper you refuse to elaborate further.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Vanden

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

The only other way to adjust a Sentinel's damage is to completely rebuild their ranged damage sets and choose different blasts, or adjust the ones they do have by giving them slower recharge so they fall into a higher damage tier according to the Standard Damage Formula.

To me this is the only logical progression.  Much like their nukes are faster recharge but less target caps.  Missing a Snipe is significant.  I am not going to micro discuss each power set but the DPS chain on Energy Blast does not need an in depth analysis.  Go to mids, open two sets.  pull up an unslotted energy Sentinel and an unslotted energy Blaster.  Look at the ST damage.  I will not do this for anyone.

 

But we cannot get to discussion on what might fix Sentinels.  Half the thread is people making a concerted effort to explain that there is nothing wrong with them. Somew even insisting the damage is comparable to Blasters.  *shakes head.  But, i see people cut off Semis all day long in heavy traffic.  Nothing amazes me anymore.

[ForeverLaxx]

5 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Go to mids, open two sets.  pull up an unslotted energy Sentinel and an unslotted energy Blaster.  Look at the ST damage.

Ignoring the fact that Mids is often incorrect about many of the finer details, I went ahead and entertained this just for the sake of it.

 

Outside of Nova, which is admittedly a big drop of around 27 base damage, and that Sentinel EB's replacement of Snipe is about 23 damage short, the other blasts are only 10 points less damage baseline. In an attack chain that can add up, sure, but keep in mind that Sentinel's version of Power Push also does actual damage (and is the highest DPA attacks in the set, no less) so Sentinel EB has 5 single-target attacks to the Blaster's 4.

 

Sentinels, in a full volley of all their ST attacks, will do 297.25 total base damage. Blasters, in their full volley of ST attacks, will do 274.86 points of base damage. Yes, Sentinels are getting an extra attack so they do pull ahead slightly in total damage dealt, but the difference isn't all that much. Energy Blast was probably a poor choice to pick considering it's one of the "serviceable" Sentinel blast sets, but you can see here that your dismissal of their damage as being "worse than a Defender" is patently unfounded since they do more damage than a Blaster if focusing purely on single-target attacks in a standard build.

 

That said, it's not a realistic concept of what an attack chain would be, especially since most players skip one of the T1 blasts. In that case, the Sentinel falls to around 242 whereas the Blaster drops to about 220, leaving the Sentinel still ahead in the end (again, because it gets an extra attack). Still not a likely attack chain, of course, but I did what you asked.

 

Where it starts to actually lag behind is in AoE potential and high recharge builds. With the exception of Water Blast (excluding the set's nuke), Sentinels have reduced AoE caps. This lowers their spawn DPS by quite a bit, and it's hampered further due to their weaker nukes in general.

[Ukase]

While I can't dispute the math, an overwhelming truth that gets shouted throughout the forums is CoH is about fun. A subjective term, to be sure. 

But, when HC opened - the first character I made and played (after creating what would be my main characters from Liberty to reserve their names) was a Sentinel. Why? Because at the time, I had no idea it sucked. It was a Fire/Rad sentinel. And you know what? It was fun. It was survivable. I had no clue what that stupid "Opportunity" meant, and didn't really care. The AT was brand new, so there wasn't much information on it. It was my first 50 here on HC. Got about 480 badges, so it's still a trash character not to be trusted. (Nobody should trust any character with less than 500 badges, lol - at least, none in my stable) But, I played it quite a bit, vet level 30, I think. It was fun. I haven't played it in over a year, but I'll never delete it. I look at the build now and wonder how I played it. I wonder how I managed to only get defeated 4 times over the life of the character, given the lackluster numbers. 

And then, when I was playing something else, the negative talk about Sentinels began. Me, I was clueless. I had no idea. While playing (teamed for the most part from level 19 and up) I had no idea my dps sucked. 

I think a Sentinel is a fine character for anyone to play. But...if I'm going for a RHW badge, I'm probably going to wince if I see one on the league. It's the only character I've got that's ever failed a RHW attempt, lol. (others have failed, but only after succeeding, and trying to help others get the badge.) 

So, yeah, I know why folks would play one, and I think they should, if it's fun. But I don't think I'll ever play one again, until they get adjusted somehow. 

[Luminara]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

Half the thread is people making a concerted effort to explain that there is nothing wrong with them.

 

They're not saying there's nothing wrong with them, Snarkums.  Most of us agree that sentinels aren't all sunshine and roses.  They're saying that... you're misinterpreting the damage on the attacks.

 

For example, Aimed Shot for defenders deals 36.15 damage.  For sentinels, it deals 52.83 damage.  36.15/0.65=55.62, which is the base value of Aimed Shot.  55.62*0.95=52.83.  Now, the blaster ranged damage scalar indicates that Aimed Shot should be dealing 62.57 damage, and, in fact, it did, a long time ago.  But Paragon did a pass across all blaster T1 and T2 primaries when they revamped Defiance to allow blasters to use those two attacks while mezzed, resulting in a generalization of all T1 and T2 attacks.  They're not all identical, but most of them deal roughly the same damage, have the same recharge times and endurance costs, etc.  So you can't make an accurate assessment of sentinel T1 and T2 attacks by comparing them to blaster attacks.  Blaster T1/T2 attacks are just leagues ahead of where they would otherwise be, if they stuck to the standard formulae.

 

If you look at other attacks, you'll see that the base damage and scalar values are more properly represented.  Blazing Arrow, for instance.  Blaster: 161.7 ; sentinel: 136.6 ; defender: 93.44.  All of those perfectly reflect the base damage of the attack and the relevant ranged damage scalar.  And, frankly, a small increase to the scalar portion really isn't going to make them rock your world.  Increasing the sentinel ranged damage scalar to 1.00 would only improve Blazing Arrow to 143.75.  It's just not going to be appreciable.

 

This is where sentinels are, in regard to damage.  They're functioning at the set scalar value, but some blaster attacks are operating at significantly higher than their appropriate scalar value, and that's skewing your perception.

[Vanden]

28 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Blaster T1/T2 attacks are just leagues ahead of where they would otherwise be, if they stuck to the standard formulae.

Blaster T1/T2s still follow the standard damage formula, they just have different/higher base recharge times in some cases than they do on other ATs.

[Snarky]

45 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Ignoring the fact that Mids is often incorrect about many of the finer details, I went ahead and entertained this just for the sake of it.

 

Outside of Nova, which is admittedly a big drop of around 27 base damage, and that Sentinel EB's replacement of Snipe is about 23 damage short, the other blasts are only 10 points less damage baseline. In an attack chain that can add up, sure, but keep in mind that Sentinel's version of Power Push also does actual damage (and is the highest DPA attacks in the set, no less) so Sentinel EB has 5 single-target attacks to the Blaster's 4.

 

Sentinels, in a full volley of all their ST attacks, will do 297.25 total base damage. Blasters, in their full volley of ST attacks, will do 274.86 points of base damage. Yes, Sentinels are getting an extra attack so they do pull ahead slightly in total damage dealt, but the difference isn't all that much. Energy Blast was probably a poor choice to pick considering it's one of the "serviceable" Sentinel blast sets, but you can see here that your dismissal of their damage as being "worse than a Defender" is patently unfounded since they do more damage than a Blaster if focusing purely on single-target attacks in a standard build.

 

That said, it's not a realistic concept of what an attack chain would be, especially since most players skip one of the T1 blasts. In that case, the Sentinel falls to around 242 whereas the Blaster drops to about 220, leaving the Sentinel still ahead in the end (again, because it gets an extra attack). Still not a likely attack chain, of course, but I did what you asked.

 

Where it starts to actually lag behind is in AoE potential and high recharge builds. With the exception of Water Blast (excluding the set's nuke), Sentinels have reduced AoE caps. This lowers their spawn DPS by quite a bit, and it's hampered further due to their weaker nukes in general.

i was way wrong.  you are saying Sentinels outdamage Blasters.  okay then.

[Blackbird71]

11 minutes ago, Snarky said:

i was way wrong.  you are saying Sentinels outdamage Blasters.  okay then.

 

Again, you ignore what was actually said and reduce it to a point that was never argued. 

Can we all just agree now that Snarky doesn't know what he's talking about?  Or else that he does, and this thread is just a massive troll?

[Luminara]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Blaster T1/T2s still follow the standard damage formula, they just have different/higher base recharge times in some cases than they do on other ATs.

 

As I noted, they were generalized, not standardized.  Some have higher recharge times, others don't.  Snap Shot is an excellent example of the discrepancy.  The recharge time, animation time and endurance cost are all identical on all three archetypes, but blaster Snap Shot's damage indicates that it's at scale ~1.39, whereas sentinel is at the correct 0.95, and defender at 0.65.  If the player looked at blaster Snap Shot damage and presumed it was using the expected 1.125 scalar, it would make it seem as though both sentinel and defender Snap Shot were markedly below their presumed scalar values.

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Sentinels, in a full volley of all their ST attacks, will do 297.25 total base damage. Blasters, in their full volley of ST attacks, will do 274.86 points of base damage.

so that is not saying Sentinel do more damage than blasters?   interesting.  go on...

[Vanden]

5 minutes ago, Luminara said:

As I noted, they were generalized, not standardized.  Some have higher recharge times, others don't.  Snap Shot is an excellent example of the discrepancy.  The recharge time, animation time and endurance cost are all identical on all three archetypes, but blaster Snap Shot's damage indicates that it's at scale ~1.39, whereas sentinel is at the correct 0.95, and defender at 0.65.  If the player looked at blaster Snap Shot damage and presumed it was using the expected 1.125 scalar, it would make it seem as though both sentinel and defender Snap Shot were markedly below their presumed scalar values.

 

Blaster Aimed Shot is 6 seconds recharge and deals scale 1.32 damage - exactly where the formula would put it. Where are you getting that it does scale 1.39?

[Luminara]

7 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

Blaster Aimed Shot is 6 seconds recharge and deals scale 1.32 damage - exactly where the formula would put it. Where are you getting that it does scale 1.39?

 

I said Snap Shot.

[Blackbird71]

12 minutes ago, Snarky said:

so that is not saying Sentinel do more damage than blasters?   interesting.  go on...

Context!  Read the whole thing!  You can't just keep cherry-picking pieces and making arguments out of them.

Continuing immediately after the part you quoted:

 

1 hour ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Yes, Sentinels are getting an extra attack so they do pull ahead slightly in total damage dealt, but the difference isn't all that much. Energy Blast was probably a poor choice to pick considering it's one of the "serviceable" Sentinel blast sets, but you can see here that your dismissal of their damage as being "worse than a Defender" is patently unfounded since they do more damage than a Blaster if focusing purely on single-target attacks in a standard build.

 

That said, it's not a realistic concept of what an attack chain would be, especially since most players skip one of the T1 blasts. In that case, the Sentinel falls to around 242 whereas the Blaster drops to about 220, leaving the Sentinel still ahead in the end (again, because it gets an extra attack). Still not a likely attack chain, of course, but I did what you asked.

 

Where it starts to actually lag behind is in AoE potential and high recharge builds. With the exception of Water Blast (excluding the set's nuke), Sentinels have reduced AoE caps. This lowers their spawn DPS by quite a bit, and it's hampered further due to their weaker nukes in general.

 

(underline added for emphasis)

FL makes it clear he's not comparing apples to apples here, and points out where the differences are. If you want to reduce that to a general claim that "sentinels deal more damage than blasters," then you're being intentionally obtuse/trollish.

[Brutal Justice]

12 hours ago, Rumors said:

Is the problem that Sentinels don't do enough damage?  Or is the real problem that Blasters are too durable?  🤔

 

 

Of course, everyone loves softcapping all the things, so I fully expect to get shot for that line.

What if we brought their oxygen levels down from 45% to 40%?   Even if it nerfs the sentinel a bit, they would become more viable due to their ability to breathe under water.  

 

Nerfing them both could result in two viable archetypes.  One with more damage that is unable to breathe under water, and one with less damage that is capable of breathing under water.  

 

Currently the blaster cant breathe under water but they can hold their breath for long enough to make breathing unnecessary.  Reducing their oxygen level would reduce their ability to hold their breath.  

 

Right now blasters are sperm whales and sentinels are giant squids.  Sperm whales can’t breathe under water but can hold their breath long enough to kill the squid.  If sperm whales couldn’t hold their breath long enough the squid would be able to hold the whale down until it has to release or be able to go deep enough as to avoid the whale all together.  The whale would still have more brute strength but the squid would have more technique.  

 

🐳 🦑 

[siolfir]

14 minutes ago, Blackbird71 said:

Context!  Read the whole thing!  You can't just keep cherry-picking 

apples

But where did the orchard come from?

</shitpost>

[Brutal Justice]

6 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

The real problem with Sentinels is how widely varied each blast set is and how the AT overwhelming favors defense sets due to their smaller HP cap

 

6 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

I will say though that in a team, some people expect you to take the alpha since you have an armor set. This... doesn't usually end well for most of the armor sets, particularly the resist ones. Maybe that should be addressed first.

 

These are not problems isolated only to sentinels.  This is really a problem with all but tanks and brutes.  The 45% defense soft cap is more or less equivalent to the 90% resist hard cap.  Therefore, anything with a hard cap lower than 90% greatly favors defense.  A soft capped scrapper will survive roughly just under 3x longer than a resist hard capped scrapper.  

 

They will also kill much quicker dodging most debuffs.  It’s a bit of an issue.  

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

and I won't.  You go on believing these things do almost as much damage as Blasters.  Stay golden.

 

That's not what he was saying at all.

 

Blaster Nrg Blast Power Blast:
(1.0 * Ranged_Damage) points of Energy damage (all affected targets)
(0.64 * Ranged_Damage) points of Smashing damage (all affected targets)

 

Defender Nrg Blast Power Blast:
(1.0 * Ranged_Damage) points of Energy damage (all affected targets)
(0.64 * Ranged_Damage) points of Smashing damage (all affected targets)

 

Sentinel Nrg Blast Power Blast:
(1.0 * Ranged_Damage) points of Energy damage (all affected targets)
(0.64 * Ranged_Damage) points of Smashing damage (all affected targets)

 

They are the exact same attack doing exactly the same base damage which is then applied to the AT Ranged_Damage Modifier.

 

Edit: Oh.. I must correct myself. The sentinel attack recharges in 7 sec where the blaster/defender attack recharges in 8. That's odd.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That's not what he was saying at all.

 

They are the exact same attack doing exactly the same base damage which is then applied to the AT Ranged_Damage Modifier.

I get that part Bill.  And circus atmosphere aside, Rabbit Season/Duck season is only funny for so long.  What the H is he saying? 

 

It seems he is massively disagreeing with me when I state Sentinels do crap damage.  I posit (and i am not bringing out Arcanatime DPS spreadsheets) that Sentinels are out damaged by Defenders.  

 

He seems to massively disagree with this, posts some numbers (without including a DPS rotation or analyzation, just "numbers") that state clearly that a Sentinels first ST volley does more than a Blasters.  I quote that, respond with amazement, and get slammed for "taking it out of context"

 

What the F context?  Someone massively disagrees with my characterization of Sentinelsd being low damage and posts an example of the ST outpacing Blasters.  What the F did I miss?

[Bill Z Bubba]

9 minutes ago, Snarky said:

I posit (and i am not bringing out Arcanatime DPS spreadsheets) that Sentinels are out damaged by Defenders.  

 

Dunno about the rest, but if we're just throwing out anecdotes, my time/fire defender has better clear speeds than my fire/time blaster just due to Time Manipulation's awesome buffs and debuffs. Does that mean the defender is actually outdamaging the blaster or does it mean that in the long run, the defender spends less time/energy staying alive and more time blasting that the blaster?

 

By the same token, my fire/bio sent outperforms my fire/time blaster as well, for the exact same reason. The blaster spends more time dealing with mez and faceplants than the sentinel does. Would I ever say that the sentinel is out-blasting the blaster? Nope. But in the overall he still performs better thanks to his armors even while doing less DPS.

 

Edit: Well, actually, a faceplanted blaster's DPS drops to zero while licking dirt, so maybe DPS is the wrong term to use.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Dunno about the rest, but if we're just throwing out anecdotes, my time/fire defender has better clear speeds than my fire/time blaster just due to Time Manipulation's awesome buffs and debuffs. Does that mean the defender is actually outdamaging the blaster or does it mean that in the long run, the defender spends less time/energy staying alive and more time blasting that the blaster?

 

By the same token, my fire/bio sent outperforms my fire/time blaster as well, for the exact same reason. The blaster spends more time dealing with mez and faceplants than the sentinel does. Would I ever say that the sentinel is out-blasting the blaster? Nope. But in the overall he still performs better thanks to his armors even while doing less DPS.

THat is the real context.  I will also take you at your word straight up that your Sentinel out damages your Blaster.  i know you are a very good player.  So I now have a new data point.  For solo play with a good player a Sentinel clears faster than a Blaster.  (I am assuming +0/x1, although at higher values it might even favor the Sentinel more)  

 

Things left out of the thread I "took out of context" is the larger context.  The extra build up on a Blaster.  The secondary sets leaning into damage more than survival.  

 

I do not play Defenders.  The 'data points' I have about Defenders out damaging Sentinels come from people I trust.  Much like I took your statement at face value.  Some folks have earned cred.  I am sure this has to do with all of a Defenders suite of abilities.  

 

Lately I have started playing a Corruptor.  I switch back and forth between my Dark/Dark/Soul Blaster and Dark^3 Corruptor regularly now.  The Blaster, if he can stay on the edge will clean the meat off the bones of spawns.  But once things get nasty the Corruptor (in my opinion) is way better at helping a team clean through.  Therefore I say the Corruptor helps the teams damage more than the Blaster in those situations.  

 

To me a Sentinel brings little to a team or league.  Out of context or not that ST attack chain says very little.  It does not include a DPS breakdown or available build ups shown in the rotation.  A Scrapper does more work by far in my opinion.  A Defender changes the playing field.  

 

So I will agree a Sentinel out damages a Blaster in solo play, due to all of the "context" of missions.  But if I was going to solo Redside again there is a 90% chance I will be on yet another Brute.  Not even gonna say it.  We all know how silly a comparison would be here.  A Brute also brings serious agro control to a team, even my patented no taunt builds.  Which helps a team....do more damage.  Because then the Blaster is much less worried about Mez and faceplanting 

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Snarky said:

(I am assuming +0/x1, although at higher values it might even favor the Sentinel more) 

 

No. I solo at max diff. At low diffs, the blaster will stomp everyone else because there's zero chance of defeat.

 

Edit: I guess I should add, I solo at max diff at 50+ with fully tricked out builds. If I'm soloing at lvl 1, I'm obviously not at max diff. If I was going to do a 100% solo run from 1 to 50, it would be with a brute for melee or a sentinel for range.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Snarky]

3 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I’m always interested in what people think of my proposed changes to Super Strength, especially the Rage replacement for the Scrapper/Stalker port. I think having Brutes and Tankers get Rage and Scrappers and Stalkers get something else is a passable compromise between the people who like Rage (like me) and the people who can’t stand it.

 

 

(You don’t have to tell me you don’t like my proposed Rage changes, I assume people don’t unless they specifically say otherwise. So far I don’t think anyone has.)

think you're in the wrong thread.  possibly the wrong game.  Scrappers do not get Super Strength.

[Snarky]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

No. I solo at max diff. At low diffs, the blaster will stomp everyone else because there's zero chance of defeat.

That explains why the Sentinel does better.  (Which I guessed would be the case at higher difficulty)

[Bill Z Bubba]

and now it's gone. nevermind...

Edited June 20, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Vanden]

Now I have to eat crow

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

I said Snap Shot.

 

My bad, I thought you were still talking about Aimed Shot. You're right, Snap Shot does do damage above the formula, but it's scale .84, so I still don't know where you were getting scale 1.39.

 

6 minutes ago, Snarky said:

think you're in the wrong thread.  possibly the wrong game.  Scrappers do not get Super Strength.

 

Aw, you're right, I am.