Tankermind dilemma - is Provoke really mandatory?

[Randolk]

Hello fellow leaders of little armies. I'm working toward a bots/traps guy with whom I wanna hunt AVs and hard content down. Came up with a pretty good build, with all positional capped and hardcapped s/l res, with a fair rech to have my precious goodies - mainly PT and AM - in the 25 sec area. Now I only have a dilemma: do I absolutely need Provoke? Will it make a difference later on to draw aggro off my pets? Or should I take Assault for more dmg and never look back?

[DocMidknight]

Not needed but can be helpful 

[Neiska]

Not needed, but it is the only aggro tool available to MMs. Personally I dislike its low target cap and brief duration. I think its the weakest of all taunt effects in the game if I am not mistaken.

 

You could take it to give it a try perhaps, and can always remove it later if you find you don't use it. If there was a way to increase its area or target capability, it might be more worthwhile but I was never impressed with it. And I am usually the sort to take tools like group fly and fold space just to have them available, and I am hard pressed to validate taking provoke.

[SmalltalkJava]

Not needed.  But I do find it a pretty handy tool.   I don't take it on all my MM's.  And on some I go back and forth on builds with it. 

[Hyperstrike]

Provoke, or similar tools, isn't required for non-Tanks.
It's simply a "nice to have" if you plan on doing aggro soft-control.
If you're just going to bust and bash?  Pick something more useful.

[RageusQuitus2]

Kind of hard to be a tankermind without provoke.  All kinds of mm styles but the name suggests tanking.  And to me a tanker without taunt is like a tankermind without provoke.... 

 

Certainly can build mms without provoke, i just wouldnt call them tankerminds is all im saying.

[tidge]

My experience with MMs, non-tanks with Provoke, and Tankers is that Provoke isn't that useful or necessary for most 0x8 content, with some caveats. I tend to think of Tankerminds as an end-game/late-game concept; in my experience a MM really only needs to build/play for Tankermind-ing if the spawn sizes are going to be very large. Small spawn sizes should offer very little difference in final results between Defensive and Aggressive henchmen status (except that defensive will be slower to defeat enemies).

 

I like Taunt and Provoke, and I like Provoke a LOT more than I like Confront. Having written that, the ToHit check and small target cap of Provoke feel (to me, YMMV) that it is working against the interests of a Tankermind in a majority of circumstances. Even with a (small) number of enemies focused on the MM, a lot of the problems for a Tankermind (and henchmen) are going to come from enemies with AoE attacks.

 

Much of what I want to write will be subject to the specifics of the Primary/Secondary, but an MM who can cycle some sort of AoE attack, preferably with a debuff, DoT, and/or soft-control (a la Knockdown), should be able to draw/keep aggro. Patches and Pseudopets help as well. These sorts of powers offer (generally) more utility (via set bonuses) than the Enhancement sets for Taunt powers.

 

Personally, I don't even try to take MM primary attacks until around level 30. Everyone should be aware of how relatively ineffective the MM attacks are in terms of DPA and Endurance cost, and trying to improve them "too soon" in a build is IMO wasting slots that should go elsewhere. Blah blah %damage from procs blah blah fishcakes. The attacks are best used to debuff enemies and draw threat.

 

[RageusQuitus2]

On 8/18/2021 at 8:09 AM, tidge said:

like Taunt and Provoke, and I like Provoke a LOT more than I like Confront. Having written that, the ToHit check and small target cap of Provoke feel (to me, YMMV) that it is working against the interests of a Tankermind in a majority of circumstances. Even with a (small) number of enemies focused on the MM, a lot of the problems for a Tankermind (and henchmen) are going to come from enemies with AoE attacks.

This is pretty spot on.  So the question isnt is provoke required for a tankermind (it is, cause tankermind in my mind is defined by "taunting aggro" not taking alpha).  The questions are tankerminding a good option?  If so when?  Pvp zone builds ive found it usefull for example.

 

Basically to the op assault is a fine choice.  Its not a tankermind without provoke but tankermind isnt required by any means.

Edited August 19, 2021 by RageusQuitus2

[tidge]

38 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

The questions are tankerminding a good option?  If so when? 

 

GMs and AVs are great options. Each will (typically) have AoE, but the single-target attacks against a Tankermind is what you want.

 

The key feature of Tankerminds is (IMO) sharing the damage taken with the henchmen. We can have a chicken-and-egg discussion about which is the effect and which is the means to an end, but from my PoV the Tankermind concept is "surviving harder content via an HP pool" and less "be the tentpole fora bunch of lower level damage dealers".

[StrikerFox]

Imo, Provoke is required. I don't think an MM can be called a Tankermind without it. Any MM can sponge the alpha but there's probably no primary, secondary or epic/ancillary power that can hold the aggro away from pets for a long period of time.

[tidge]

As I wrote: the Maximum Targets (5, I don't think this has changed), the relatively short duration (base 14 secs as opposed to base 40 secs for Tanks?) as well as the need to actually HIT with Provoke, I don't think it is nearly as useful (across all content) as simply generating AoE Threat through other means.

 

As a comparison: I have several different AT that leverage the Presence pool. I have two characters (with Provoke) that I run in a LOT of high-level team content. The nature of these teams makes it such that we commonly split up, so some (non-Melee) players end up taking aggro from large groups that they can't exactly handle (think: elements of Imperious TF or on Market Crash maps) and so I will deploy my Scrapper or Widow or Bane to help them out.  The Threat level for Stalkers is higher than MMs, the threat level from VEATs is the same as MMS. When I take Provoke, I almost always 6-slot it with Mocking Beratement.

 

My experience is that it is extremely difficult to get an entire spawn (from a x8 team) off of an even level teammate who has the aggro by just using Provoke.

 

If I actually want to get the entire spawn off of a teammate, I have to juggle damage and debuffing to help them out. If you think this is simply anecdotal, I have a more pure anecdote... those same characters have been able to peel single-target aggro from Brutes as well as from a couple of (poorly played, poorly constructed) Tankers... so I am aware of how Provoke can be used, I just think that its most of its values is inherently limited to a relatively small number of circumstances (*1). Even ignoring the role that Debuffs (and DoT) play in generating threat, debuffing opponents is almost certainly going to speed up enemy defeat times (by the henchmen).

 

I am not unaware that I am making the opposite of my typical conclusion in threads with the quest "Do Tankers need Taunt?" (TL:DR, my answer is "Yes"), but my answer is different (primarily) because Taunt is different than Provoke.

 

(*1) The most obvious (to me) circumstance where the Mastermind absolutely wants to (and has a chance at) generating more threat than the henchmen is when facing single, hard targets that have no more than four nearby allies (who won't be otherwise quickly defeated/controlled). If you are facing large spawn sizes, there is likely to be more stray aggro generated by Henchmen AoE than you could hope to "manage" with Provoke alone. If you are facing small spawn sizes, turn the henchmen loose!

 

Of course I haven't played all MM primary/secondary, so if your MM has no alternate mechanism of generating threat then by all means go with Provoke. I certainly think that if you are going Tankermind it is much more important to pick up Tough and Weave from the Fighting pool.

[RageusQuitus2]

7 hours ago, tidge said:

I am not unaware that I am making the opposite of my typical conclusion in threads with the quest "Do Tankers need Taunt?" (TL:DR, my answer is "Yes"), but my answer is different (primarily) because Taunt is different than Provoke.

I also almost 100% agree with that (about the only tanks I dont take taunt, are my fire farmers).  

 

7 hours ago, tidge said:

Of course I haven't played all MM primary/secondary, so if your MM has no alternate mechanism of generating threat then by all means go with Provoke. I certainly think that if you are going Tankermind it is much more important to pick up Tough and Weave from the Fighting pool.

Not so sure I agree with this Id have to look at my MM builds.  Being MMs can be so tough to begin with, and you are spreading damage through pets as well.  But Im pretty certain I play this game alot different than most.  Even when it comes to MMs (3 boxing mostly solo, lots of open zone play versus missions, I love street sweeping croatoa and PvP zones for example).  The occasional open zone GM.  So my builds tend to slightly different.  Example I use team TP and despite the name team TP is only for solo MM play (or solo multiboxing). 

[RageusQuitus2]

8 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

Imo, Provoke is required. I don't think an MM can be called a Tankermind without it. Any MM can sponge the alpha but there's probably no primary, secondary or epic/ancillary power that can hold the aggro away from pets for a long period of time.

Thats what I was thinking, I just dont see an MM attack (not pets but an actual MMs attack like lash) holding aggro for very long.  So even if provoke is only 14 seconds its better at its job than an attack.  But I havent thoroughly tested this.

[SmalltalkJava]

In my experience, a MM can't hold aggro off of his pets just with the attacks.  So for a true hardcore tankermind that wants to control aggro to the utmost then yes you need provoke.  It gives you the option to let the pets pull aggro off of you or you can pull aggro off them or players.    Provoke also gives an advantage when using ranged pets.  You can issue a "goto" or "stay" command then run a little bit away from them and them aggro the mobs.   That minimizes the negative effects of mob AOE's and especially patch aoe's like caltrops.

Edited August 21, 2021 by SmalltalkJava

[plainguy]

As I solo A LOT.. It is a bit of Just trying to speed up the mission run.  I run on 3/8 or 4/8.  So that being said I need those heavy hitter bosses to come after me and not my pets. 

My usual M.O. for my Robot Traps is drop all my traps  and Provoke. Then they rush in. Things go boom. Pets attack. Then I cycle between some sort of trap item and Provoke.. 

At the end of the day mobs can run off all they want, they will just come back to the same spot.  With so many groups around they just get pulled back into the fight and die off. 

 

Here is the kink I am going to add to this thread. I highly recommend Oppressive Gloom. It really holds down the regular mobs. It is extremely noticeable when it is on or off. That also generates aggro. 

 

I have had some moments where I had to tank because the actual tank/brute died.  Again nothing big just had to hold the groups until they got back up.  You can one slot it with a proc if you want even.  I have tried provoke on a demon resistance build and I was CRUSHED.. I had to respec into some defenses and then it worked much better.  

[Crysis]

I have numerous /Time and /Storm MM’s and on those two sets I’ve found Provoke to be ineffective vs what I can do to pull and hold aggro with Times Juncture and my various Storm powers respectively.  I’ve taken Provoke on those builds and then respecced right back out as it’s just a wasted power pool relative to my secondary.  I have other secondaries that benefit from it but not those two.  And for pulling aggro at range, I’m just not one of those attack-less MM’s so again…..not needed.

 

 

[Crysis]

Sipping coffee on this gorgeous Labor Day (US holiday) morning, I got to thinking about this thread again.

 

One of the unique things about this game is the amazing variety of play styles that can be supported by pretty much any AT.  I’ve played melee-oriented “scrappers” out of Dominators, Controller-y Blasters and Masterminds and a whole host of “you are playing it wrong buddy” kinds of builds.  It’s just one reason that I’ve enjoyed this game since Beta and I’m still learning stuff today.  There was a time I actually quit playing the game (when IO’s were introduced) because I thought a game I’d ‘mastered’ was forever ruined by the damn crafting system and I -despised- crafting in other games.  But I buckled down, learned how it worked (thank god for Mids!) and still enjoying it today.

 

Proc’s were the next big discovery.  I -thought- I understood them in Live but really only managed to scratch the surface.  Then I started reading stuff from @Bopper and @Sir Myshkin and watched the layers of the onion slowly peeled back.  For example….did you know that some procs are coded to be “self applied” to the $Target?  Crazy huh?  Well once you know this, and know the ‘why’s’ behind it, you begin to understand how game changing Proc’s can be.

 

Early on I discovered the Tankerminding approach to playing a MM, one of my favorite AT’s.  I didn’t quite appreciate the value of it the way so many other players did, until I started to compare their builds (posted here or shared with me) to my own.  One of the things I’ve always done is take at least 1 or more of the 3 “attacks” a MM is given in their primary.  The common wisdom, almost universally, is the attacks suck, the damage sucks for a MM, take the 3 summons, the 2 empowerment’s and the 1 ‘extra’ and skip the attacks.  Better stuff can be had from Boxing, or Brawl, blah blah blah.  If we are talking straight damage on a comparative level, I totally get that mindset.  This game is ultimately about eliminating your targets faster than they can eliminate you, and that’s all about DPS.  

 

But that’s where I misinterpreted a MM’s strengths.  In a big, big way.

 

If you have no attacks, particularly no ranged attacks, your ability to hold aggro with just your secondary powers is highly unlikely.  Your henchmen will be doing far more damage than will you, and the “stand back and support” mindset then kicks in.  Gotta keep those critters alive so they can keep fighting for me!  Well, yes and no.  I mean the HC Dev’s just gave us a massive clue when they reduced the cost of summoning/resummoning our henchmen.  It was always a high cost because unlike most other AT’s that don’t use pets, we spend all our END up front for our DPS.  Everyone else spends it “as they use it for outputting damage.”  Thus we still have these big endurance penalties for our attacks….because our real DPS is from our henchmen.

 

But fundamental to “Tankerminding” is learning to use Bodyguard mode.  Effectively, you are pulling all the damage onto yourself to split the incoming damage across you and your henchmen, effectively adding massive +RES to you and your posse.  But if you can’t keep pulling aggro, you’ll at best get the most use out of BG mode during the alpha.  This is OK for most spawns, but less than favorable for mezzing spawns.  Basically, if they mezz, you want your henchmen to take the alpha so you stay fully capable of directing the outcome.  If a non-mezzing spawn, then you take the alpha in BG mode.  But how are you going to hold aggro without Presence pool?  Simple answer, and the one I’ve always known (without really thinking about the WHY of it) is that you have to be attacking so the aggro math see’s you as a threat.  And that’s why my “Presence-less” pool MM’s always questioned why I needed the Presence pool when I seemed fully capable of grabbing and holding aggro just fine even with my henchmen set purely on aggressive mode (not in Bodyguard) once the engagement begins.  Because I’ve -always- taken my attacks and, almost always, slotted them up with Procs.

 

So the long winded purpose of this post is that you consider WHY you need Presence.  It’s because you need to take and hold aggro.  But you can do that with many secondaries (/Time is my favorite and Times Juncture is gold for this).  But the attacks by themselves are still anemic for outputting damage and once you know how aggro math works you’ll realize the importance of Procc’ing out those attacks.

 

I could go on and on but I’d highly, HIGHLY encourage you to go check out @Redlynne’s post, especially the post in that thread I’ve linked.  The whole thread is full of deep learnings for MM’s, why the personal attacks matter, how Proc’s work, the synergy between your attacks and how they can be used not for damage directly, but to indirectly augment the DPS and/or survivability of your henchmen, why the Dev’s likely built MM’s with inherently low native damage and high endurance penalties, etc etc.  Just a wealth of information.  If you read it, and understand it, the whole question about needing Presence pool will take on a very different perspective for you.  Yes, Presence Pool can be very helpful to some MM’s with certain secondaries, even more so if they take none of their primary attacks (or only slot them with damage).  Because you gotta pull aggro to hold aggro and you gotta out-aggro your henchmen.  But it’s not universally required for all power set combo’s and in many cases, it can totally sub-optimize your performance as a MM.  But Redlynne and others have done a much better job than I could here explaining the insights and the “why is that true” so just grab a coffee and start reading.  Seriously.  It may be absolutely game-changing insights for you.

 

 

A more recent discussion on Provoke’s usefulness is here also if you got through Redlynne’s stuff and want the simpler version:

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by Crysis

[tidge]

My mind isn't going to be changed (see above for my attitude), but I am starting to wonder if folks have different definitions of "Tankerminding"?

 

Personally, I would never try to out-tank a Tanker with a MM, as the tools available to a MM are simply too weak compared to a Tanker's tools. Quite frankly I think they are too weak to act as a Tanker on large groups (see dozens of similarly-themed posts claiming "I tank with my Blapper/VEAT/Dominator/HEAT").

 

For myself only: I only consider Tankerminding to be keeping aggro off of my henchmen so that they can keep a stance such that they share their Health with me. This is most evident in solo play. A solo player can control the flow of combat and generate threat in many different ways. The only aspect of this that occasionally works against me is if there is 'too much control' or enemies that turn tail and run for the hills may require some adjustment of henchmen stances to finish off a spawn... but at this point the Health pool isn't as important to share.

 

In large PUG it is almost always another player that has most of the aggro, so the purely defensive stance has to be evaluated... in my own experience (for most content) it isn't worth trying to peel the aggro of just a limited number of enemies simply to preserve the defensive stance... and if a PUG is fighting enemy spawns with AoE you can go ahead and keep the henchmen in a defensive stance... provided your MM is in the AoE. You may want/need the Health pool to survive, but surviving isn't Tanking.

[plainguy]

15 hours ago, tidge said:

My mind isn't going to be changed (see above for my attitude), but I am starting to wonder if folks have different definitions of "Tankerminding"?

 

Personally, I would never try to out-tank a Tanker with a MM, as the tools available to a MM are simply too weak compared to a Tanker's tools. Quite frankly I think they are too weak to act as a Tanker on large groups (see dozens of similarly-themed posts claiming "I tank with my Blapper/VEAT/Dominator/HEAT").

 

For myself only: I only consider Tankerminding to be keeping aggro off of my henchmen so that they can keep a stance such that they share their Health with me. This is most evident in solo play. A solo player can control the flow of combat and generate threat in many different ways. The only aspect of this that occasionally works against me is if there is 'too much control' or enemies that turn tail and run for the hills may require some adjustment of henchmen stances to finish off a spawn... but at this point the Health pool isn't as important to share.

 

In large PUG it is almost always another player that has most of the aggro, so the purely defensive stance has to be evaluated... in my own experience (for most content) it isn't worth trying to peel the aggro of just a limited number of enemies simply to preserve the defensive stance... and if a PUG is fighting enemy spawns with AoE you can go ahead and keep the henchmen in a defensive stance... provided your MM is in the AoE. You may want/need the Health pool to survive, but surviving isn't Tanking.

I agree. 

 

I don't think or at least for me. I don' try to tank for a team with my Mastermind.  

Personally I don't think you even need a tanker type on a team at level 50. I think Inventions and Incarnates blurred all those lines.  3 Defense capped players I think is all you need on a team.  Everyone is just extra DPS plain and simple.  If 3 players can jump into the mix on a TF/SF and hold the line then it is all good.  

 

I do want to say I "THINK" Dechs Kaison was the first Tankermind that at least I recall posting his build or at least got me into Tankerminding -  https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-is-softcap-so-important.html

 

[Arbegla]

14 hours ago, plainguy said:

I agree. 

 

I don't think or at least for me. I don' try to tank for a team with my Mastermind.  

Personally I don't think you even need a tanker type on a team at level 50. I think Inventions and Incarnates blurred all those lines.  3 Defense capped players I think is all you need on a team.  Everyone is just extra DPS plain and simple.  If 3 players can jump into the mix on a TF/SF and hold the line then it is all good.  

 

I do want to say I "THINK" Dechs Kaison was the first Tankermind that at least I recall posting his build or at least got me into Tankerminding -  https://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011/01/why-is-softcap-so-important.html

 

 

Dechs Kaison and I were one of the firsts, back in the day at least. We played similar powersets, but in radically different ways. I went the PvP route (at least until I13) and he went the PvE route. Fun guy for sure though.

 

Tankerminding was something I did just to keep my pets alive, as I realized that if the pets died, I died, but the pets keep me more durable. It was simply a math equation that I wanted to solve. Provoke, I would say, used to be useful, before IOs and Incarnate powers really made things die just too fast. I would vouch that its not needed at all anymore, and Tankerminding is a totally different animal now that we have AoE buffs in incarnates. Its much easier to keep people, (and pets) alive then it used to be.