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Leadership vs Fighting


drgantz
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I plan to mostly group, but sometimes solo.  I only do PVE.

I've read that dps classes get the worst Leadership benefits.  Since I mostly plan to group, I would assume that Leadership would be better because others might have it as well.

Some people have said that they always take Fighting.

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4 hours ago, drgantz said:

I've read that dps classes get the worst Leadership benefits.

 

Yeah, but the same applies to Fighting's Tough/Weave.  Defensive minded ATs are a little better than offensive ones with these buffs.  Support classes are even better, of course, with Defenders being kings.

 

It's better to look at how they are different.  As you've noted, Leadership is AoE.  But the big difference is really that Fighting has Tough and Leadership doesn't.  Weave is slightly better personal defense than Maneuvers, but it's not a team buff either.   But that resistance to smash/lethal is nice.  You'll want to decide if that's worth more than a few minor team buffs that might stack with others.  If your job on a team is offense, but you're not likely to get a lot of aggro... maybe go Leadership.  It also provides +dmg and +tohit, which Fighting does not.  If on the other hand you may reasonably get a fair amount of aggro, Tough... is nice.   You can't do damage if you're dead or spending time patching yourself up instead of attacking.

 

There's no one answer.  But I'd look at it in those qualitative terms first before worrying over the buff modifiers.

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Many of my builds will have both.  Forget generalities and look at each build as a unique specific build as a whole.  Do what works best for that specific build.

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AE 801 (link) is a variety of missions for fun and challenge, and is designed for a team of 5+ Incarnates.  Just search '801' in AE.  Difficulty Varies: 801.0 Easy, ..., 801.2 Standard, ..., 801.5 Hard, ..., 801.8 Extreme, ..., 801.A Epic, ... 801.F Death.

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I'm from a different camp. I've been experimenting with toons that have close to no resistance and defences. And I've found that dps toons do justice to the adage, "the best defence is a good offence". 

That said, I tend to pick up Tough if my toons don't have any place to slot res IOs in as most of those have very attractive set bonuses even for 2-piece ones. Between Weave and Leadership, Weave is my choice for the slightly higher def at a slightly lower end drain. Also, when in teams, everyone seems to have Maneuvres anyway. So when I'm on a toon that doesn't have def powers, I'll pick up weave, rarely Maneuvres. I do pick up Assault and Tactics.

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Most of my characters take speed leaping fighting leadership - both is pretty standard.

 

Because of the aforementioned base values that are less than stellar for stalkers, it is a great AT to break that mold. My sav/ea takes presence/provoke instead of leadership and my em/ea takes experimentation/adrenal booster instead of leadership. 

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1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

Because of the aforementioned base values that are less than stellar for stalkers, it is a great AT to break that mold. My sav/ea takes presence/provoke instead of leadership and my em/ea takes experimentation/adrenal booster instead of leadership.

 

I like taking Provoke and Teleport Target for the team utility (and Provoke is handy solo too for keeping things from running away), but I've yet to be completely comfortable without Combat Jumping, so I end up going Fighting, Leaping, Teleport, and Presence.  I've toyed with leaving out Teleport for Leadership but not liked it much.  

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2 hours ago, ZemX said:

 

I like taking Provoke and Teleport Target for the team utility (and Provoke is handy solo too for keeping things from running away), but I've yet to be completely comfortable without Combat Jumping, so I end up going Fighting, Leaping, Teleport, and Presence.  I've toyed with leaving out Teleport for Leadership but not liked it much.  

I absolutely never skip combat jumping, it has the same level of build priority as hasten for me.

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  • 5 weeks later

I don't recommend leadership unless you have extra power points and you really need a little extra defense.  I strongly recommend not going for assault... tactics is not bad but you shouldn't need it.  Maneuvers can be nice, at least!

 

Fighting makes a huge impact for stalkers though, and it will be fairly strong unlike leadership.  The benefit of leadership over fighting of course is that you don't have to waste a power pick on an attack you'll never use, which is even more significant if weave doesn't do anything for you and you're just going for tough (which, while nice, is not that good on its own... but smashing/lethal is common and it can be good to have behind defenses if you are a purely defensive stalker, and if its your own power with resistance enhancements it gains significant value for slotting unique resistance enhancements).

 

You can take both, but fighting will almost always be better.  The only exception might be if you don't need weave but... if you don't need weave, you probably don't need manuevers either.  I dislike assault on principle due to how +damage buffs scale, and I don't consider tactics worthwhile.  A lot of stalkers are also a bit endurance thirsty at times so I can't well recommend a lot of expensive support toggles.

 

Leadership is strong though if you use it for team buffs, and it's not a bad choice if you can spare power slots.  I just don't personally recommend it over fighting pool, which will significantly increase your survivability.

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On 8/25/2021 at 8:32 PM, ILIWAPCT said:

I'm not a Scrapper.

All of my Stalker's are  Assassin's.

Strike Hard. Strike Fast. No Mercy.

 

The changes to stalkers however does make them a bit more like scrappers and especially in team settings you will not be able to just kill everything in one hit.  There's a very good chance things are going to turn around and hit you due to how bursty your attacks are and being in melee range in general will put you in harm's way.  Don't underestimate the value of extra defenses... especially since you can invest in these kinds of pools without hurting your damage potential in any way.  (In fact, with the right enhancement sets, they can even make it better.)  Most of all, If you are knocked out, you won't be dealing much damage. 😞

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On 8/23/2021 at 11:41 AM, drgantz said:

've read that dps classes get the worst Leadership benefits.  Since I mostly plan to group, I would assume that Leadership would be better because others might have it as well.

 

I almost always end up getting leadership.

I tend the team. The bigger the team, the more of a benefit leadership becomes.

If multiple characters on the team have leadership, they stack.

+to-hit and + global defense go a long way. Assault doesn't even need to be slotted.

 

If you primarily solo, there is no need to take leadership. 

 

You could always make multiple builds if you are into that kind of thing.

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On 9/25/2021 at 11:39 AM, Chelsea Rorec said:

Think of yourself before the team.

If you are dead your Leadership is worthless.

Taking Maneuvers can mean less deaths all around. Plus, the +recharge IO.

Without Pause Claws/wp brute, Nothing But Flowers Plant/storm, Waterpark Water/temp blaster, Sneakers StJ/en stalker,

Current obsession(s): Dual boxing CoV(Savage/rad brute, Dark/savage tank)

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Maybe choose depending on your primary, secondary and build. Can softcap without Weave, and can slot Steadfast/Glad Armor without the Fighting Pool? Leadership is a good alternative. Maneuvers can slot LotG. Also Kismet, Shield Wall and Reactive Defense uniques. 

 

Gaussian's BU proc can go in Tactics. I haven't tried it but some players say it improves dps while teamed. It has a chance to proc every 10 seconds with every team/leaguemate within range. Also if there's a snipe in the chain, Tactic's +tohit buff will improve it's damage. Assault for the damage buff, Vengeance as a mule, Victory Rush to help with any end problems.

 

But if you're playing powersets with a lot of AoE, Gaussian's would be great in Build Up since Superior Assassin's Mark would recharge BU often. 

 

Just make two builds in Mids', one with Leadership and another with Fighting, and decide what works out better for you.

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10 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

Gaussian's BU proc can go in Tactics. I haven't tried it but some players say it improves dps while teamed. It has a chance to proc every 10 seconds with every team/leaguemate within range. Also if there's a snipe in the chain, Tactic's +tohit buff will improve it's damage. Assault for the damage buff, Vengeance as a mule, Victory Rush to help with any end problems.

 

But if you're playing powersets with a lot of AoE, Gaussian's would be great in Build Up since Superior Assassin's Mark would recharge BU often.

 

I almost never advocate the Gaussian's %Build Up in tactics (TL;DR I approve if it is on a team-playing toon that is also providing constant attacks, otherwise keep control of it yourself) but because of the specific Stalker ATO I can see a couple of corner cases for a Stalker opting to slot it in Tactics... but I still wouldn't recommend it in general.

 

As for the OP's question: I almost always prefer Fighting over Leadership across characters. The specific possibility of slotting global pieces is often simply too important for most builds. I have a spectrum of attitudes for this. In the specific case of Stalkers, if a build has Maneuvers it is only to use as a LotG Global recharge mule and is likely not even taken until level 47 or 49. I might toggle it on during some high-level team content, but even then it is only going to provide some marginal benefit for players (and their henchmen/pets) that may be close to me.

 

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Gaus BU proc in tactics is typically used for sets with pets to increase the consistency of higher proc chances outside the position of potential teammates. Examples would be MMs, Pet based arachnos soldiers, fire imps, and carrion creepers. 

 

The specific stalker ATO that recharges makes it even more valuable in build up and should not be put into tactics for stalkers.

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21 hours ago, DreadShinobi said:

Gaus BU proc in tactics is typically used for sets with pets to increase the consistency of higher proc chances outside the position of potential teammates. Examples would be MMs, Pet based arachnos soldiers, fire imps, and carrion creepers.

 

I totally agree, but my union boss requires that I point out there is a difference between henchmen and pets.

 

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Of the mentioned classes, I think the VEATs hit the best balance between having enough pets and making enough well-scaled attacks to benefit from the Gaussian %BuildUp in a toggle. MM Damage scales are too low with too high an Endurance cost for the Build Up to make much of a difference for them. Better to slot Tactics to boost the Henchmen.

 

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