Wayback machine: Fire tanks

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

Voting with the wallet is the best thing. Not long forum diatribes which are then ignored even after reaching 20 pages of protests.

Luckily I presented no diatribe.  😝

It is a monologue.  And quite a short one at that.  😀

[Sovera]

35 minutes ago, Hyperstrike said:

Luckily I presented no diatribe.  😝

It is a monologue.  And quite a short one at that.  😀

 

Actually I was typing it and thinking of WoW's thing of giving the offense cooldowns (our version of Build-up) a global cooldown. A very very very very badly received decision that generated pages and pages of complaints to no avail.

 

While not on the level of the Fire Tank nerf I believe some more voting with the wallet would help devs realize things are not all quantifiable as spreadsheets may make them believe.

[Solarverse]

There were SEVERAL nerfs that just kept coming and coming over time. Every time the Devs nerfed something, Fire Tanks adjusted and found another way. Here is a list of the nerfs as I remember them."

1: They put a timer on the Wolves missions so that it could not be repeated.

Tanks simply started using Ninjas (Chimera and his Guards) to herd, which turned out to be even better than Wolves.

2: They nerfed the ambush mobs in Ninjas to curve the mob sizes that would spawn.
Tanks just started adding more taunt to their AoE to adjust so it simply took them longer to herd.
Other Tanks moved to Drek.

3: They added fear to Burn
Tanks adjusted by having Controllers lock mobs down, and tanks added even more taunt to compensate

4: Burn Damage was nerfed
It slowed down the process, but was far from sufficient to stop Fire Tanks from doing their thing.

5: They added Diminishing Returns, no more six slotting all damage.
Tanks adjusted by keeping "pocket Emps" to boost their resistance and gain heals.

6: The final nail in the coffin, The aggro nerf.

This ended the reign of the Fire Tanks once and for all.

The birth of Fire/Kin Trollers were born out of the ashes of the Fire Tanks.

The order may be off, but that is pretty much the run down of all the nerfs made to end Fire Tankers herding and power leveling.
 

[arcane]

On 10/8/2021 at 9:57 AM, Sovera said:

While not on the level of the Fire Tank nerf I believe some more voting with the wallet would help devs realize things are not all quantifiable as spreadsheets may make them believe.

You aren’t seriously implying the nerfs weren’t justified, are you? 

[Solarverse]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

You aren’t seriously implying the nerfs weren’t justified, are you? 

Considering how there is a constant wave of people looking for AE power leveling on the chat channels and how fast you can go from level 1 to 50 in those AE missions, I would say it was justified at the time, but no longer justified.

[Sovera]

18 minutes ago, arcane said:

You aren’t seriously implying the nerfs weren’t justified, are you? 

 

We were specifically talking about the fear effect in Burn and how it was rolled back.

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Sovera said:

 

We were specifically talking about the fear effect in Burn and how it was rolled back.

Got it. Reasonable. Thank you 🙂

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, Krimson said:

A couple of days of farming later... Burn totally affects more than five with a Tanker. 

Tankers have higher target caps than everyone else now so.. yeah

[Carnifax]

22 minutes ago, arcane said:

Tankers have higher target caps than everyone else now so.. yeah

I've no idea how the Tanker "Higher Target caps" works, if its a buff or what but CoD lists it as 5.

 

Kind of. 

 

The initial Burn hits 5 for a chunk of damage (and procs) and drops a Burn patch. Each of these can hit 5 people with their patch-style DoT (and more proc chances I guess). 

https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=tanker_defense.fiery_aura.burn&at=tanker

 

 

I think old school Burn didn't have those 2 sets of "cap of 5". 

 

(For what its worth I think Burn is also one power unaffected by the "larger AoE" buff Tanks have now, like I said no idea if / how it interacts with higher target caps)

[Wavicle]

A bunch of people quit when there were some nerfs early on in the games history.

Joke's on them, we're WAY MORE POWERFUL now than we ever were then.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Wavicle

[kubwulf]

As many others mentioned, the largest impacts were the fear from Burn, the limitation on how many mobs would take damage from burn, and the aggro cap.  

The fear was annoying and birthed the wave of Fire/Ice tanks.  Drop Ice Patch, drop Burn, mobs can't run away if they're falling over themselves.  

 

The aggro cap was hobbling to all tanks, but it really hurt Fire tanks because Burn was, and frankly still is, the primary damage dealing power of the Fire tank.  When Fire tanks could no longer grab an entire map, you started to see more Scrankers.  With Burn capped at 5 targets, and aggro cap at 15-16 mobs, Fire tanks dropped off the map.  

ED was a completely different story that killed so many builds.

[Solarverse]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

A bunch of people quit when there were some nerfs early on in the games history.

Jokes on them, we're WAY MORE POWERFUL now than we ever were then.

People have their reasons. I was that way with Star Wars the Old Republic, they started nerfing crap, changing animations, changing the progression tree, made it simpler for little kids to play, and I was like, "F**k this, I'm out."

I have no idea what the game is like now, but most of the time, once I leave a game I never look back. City of Heroes is that one exception to the rule.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, kubwulf said:

ED was a completely different story that killed so many builds.

 

Sort of. In virtually every case you can be more powerful now than you were then.

[kubwulf]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

Sort of. In virtually every case you can be more powerful now than you were then.

I really have to disagree with you on this.  Mainly it comes down to how you define "powerful".  I suppose, at this exact point in time, if you level a character to 50 and can take full advantage of the Incarnate system, maybe you can be all that you could be pre-ED, but I doubt it.  

Pure regen scrappers who just couldn't die because they 6-slotted heals in every power that would take them can not achieve the same level of healing as they had pre-ED.
Tankers can't reach defense cap without set bonuses.

Scrappers can't hit the same damage numbers they had pre-ED without gulping down reds and IO set bonuses.

A lot of what I've seen since coming back is the IO system attempting to roll back earlier changes to make the characters as strong as they were before ED.  There were niche builds that allowed an electric blaster to drain you dry with a single Build Up/Aim/Snipe, simply because snipe was 6-slotted End Modification.  The damage was crap, but you could drain damn near anything except and AV or GM of end within a few shots.

Those builds don't work anymore.  At least not while leveling.  Post Incarnates, maybe.

If you define "powerful" as more well rounded and viable in more situations, yeah, you're right.  But I said ED killed builds.  There are plenty of builds out there that will not work without being able to 6-slot powers without the diminishing returns.

[Wavicle]

Yes, of course you have to build differently.

When ED was put in the devs at the time explicitly said they were pulling back how much power we had so that they could give it and more back to us later. And that's exactly what they did.

 

There is absolutely no question whatsoever that a t4 Incarnate, Purpled out IO build toon is way more powerful than the equivalent pre-ED build. Even for Fire Tanks, Regen, whatever.

[Wavicle]

17 hours ago, kubwulf said:

I said ED killed builds.  There are plenty of builds out there that will not work without being able to 6-slot powers without the diminishing returns.

 

I want to examine this just a little bit more.

What did 6 slotting let us do?

 

It gave us Perma Hasten, it let us do around 300% damage without buffs, it let us not run out of endurance. It let us not die even facing huge hordes of mobs.

ALL of that and more can now be achieved with IOs and Incarnates. So although the exact builds may no longer work, the same goals can absolutely be achieved.

[Sovera]

I feel you're overexaggerating a bit, Wavicle.

 

I didn't play before the big nerf. I actually started in Issue 6 and people were still reeling from ED. But from what I've heard then no, incarnates are not as powerful as pre ED. Just to start with Regen is garbage and no incarnates and IOs makes it survive without playing the piano with the Regen clickies. And even then one small slip and it dies.

 

We don't nearly get Hasten perma 'out of the box' by just adding more slots and we certainly don't go around with the equivalent of triple perma BU by having things six slotted for damage. We also don't get softcap defense.

 

I can just barely get 40% by squeezing a ton of IOs and sacrificing things like recharge. I could push it to 45%, MAYBE, and it would mean even more sacrifices.

 

No, Incarnates and IOs certainly give a lot of power but pre-ED was nutty by everything I read and jolly good riddance. The game was not sustainable. It sounds like it was as much fun as playing with cheats on, which is a very short term thing before boredom comes in.

[Wavicle]

1 hour ago, Sovera said:

I feel you're overexaggerating a bit, Wavicle.

 

I didn't play before the big nerf. I actually started in Issue 6 and people were still reeling from ED. But from what I've heard then no, incarnates are not as powerful as pre ED. Just to start with Regen is garbage and no incarnates and IOs makes it survive without playing the piano with the Regen clickies. And even then one small slip and it dies.

 

We don't nearly get Hasten perma 'out of the box' by just adding more slots and we certainly don't go around with the equivalent of triple perma BU by having things six slotted for damage. We also don't get softcap defense.

 

I can just barely get 40% by squeezing a ton of IOs and sacrificing things like recharge. I could push it to 45%, MAYBE, and it would mean even more sacrifices.

 

No, Incarnates and IOs certainly give a lot of power but pre-ED was nutty by everything I read and jolly good riddance. The game was not sustainable. It sounds like it was as much fun as playing with cheats on, which is a very short term thing before boredom comes in.

 

It may take More investment than before, but we are absolutely capable of becoming more powerful now than we were then.

And frankly, your comment about it not being sustainable and as fun as playing with cheats on absolutely applies to the 45+ game today.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Wavicle

[Wavicle]

But regardless of those details, what I am 100% absolutely certain of is that the nerfs to Armor and Control AND ED (which should be considered to stand NOT for "Enhancement Diversification" but instead should be thought of as "Enhancement Diminishing Returns") were very necessary, were done exactly right, and have resulted in a long and bright future for the game. The people who left at that time just were not forward thinking enough to see what was possible down the line.

 

ED saved the game.

And Fire Tanks are still, of course, kings of damage among tanks.

[Sovera]

Just now, Wavicle said:

 

It may take More investment than before, but we are absolutely capable of becoming more powerful now than we were then.

And frankly, your comment about it not being sustainable and as fun as playing with cheats on absolutely applies to the 45+ game today.

 

We will have too agree to disagree. After a few years of putting builds together I can say I have no character who casually has perma hasten, perma 300% damage (who can still use Build-up afterwards. Was BU perma too?), perma softcap and probably perma capped resistances.

 

The only thing that does not make me insist is that I did not play pre-ED so I'm just going on what I have read. And from what I have read is that pre-ED players had double the current Incarnate AND the IO  power we now have. Which is already considered too much until new difficulty levels are placed in.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

We will have too agree to disagree. After a few years of putting builds together I can say I have no character who casually has perma hasten, perma 300% damage (who can still use Build-up afterwards. Was BU perma too?), perma softcap and probably perma capped resistances.

 

The only thing that does not make me insist is that I did not play pre-ED so I'm just going on what I have read. And from what I have read is that pre-ED players had double the current Incarnate AND the IO  power we now have. Which is already considered too much until new difficulty levels are placed in.

 

I did play pre-ED and I think people have given you an inflated idea of how powerful they were pre-ED.

[Wavicle]

17 minutes ago, Sovera said:

 

We will have too agree to disagree. After a few years of putting builds together I can say I have no character who casually has perma hasten, perma 300% damage (who can still use Build-up afterwards. Was BU perma too?), perma softcap and probably perma capped resistances.

 

The only thing that does not make me insist is that I did not play pre-ED so I'm just going on what I have read. And from what I have read is that pre-ED players had double the current Incarnate AND the IO  power we now have. Which is already considered too much until new difficulty levels are placed in.

 

To get specific:

People didn't typically have soft-capped defenses or hard capped resistances (except Maybe to smashing lethal, or maybe to fire, depending on your set) in the pre-ED days.

 

Build Up was Not perma.

 

Remember, we mostly had SOs. Even after IOs came out hardly anyone had the kinds of builds we have now.

[Aurora_Girl]

To be even more specific, because I was an issue 4 baby: nobody had softcapped anything because that concept didn't exist. You didn't need it to because the only thing anybody slotted for was damage and recharge, maaaaybe an acc SO. Things died quickly, or you did. It was a very binary system and was very, very boring. Pull/herd, attack, move on. As a blaster, I would've been terrified to even snipe an additional spawn without the tank there to cover my ass. 

 

Now? Well, you know what now looks like. 

[kubwulf]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

 

I did play pre-ED and I think people have given you an inflated idea of how powerful they were pre-ED.

 

I, too, played pre-ED.  I was that regen scrapper.  No Moment of Glory, 6 slots of healing in every power that would take it, and even after I4 and Fast Healing being made clicky, I could still tank most AVs and not die.  I can't do that now; even with a 50 regen and all the healing I could get.

The difference is, because of ED, it is pointless to put the extra slots in healing powers.  So those slots end up in my offense.  Most mobs die before I actually need to rely on the regen in combat.  From many perspectives, this makes me "more powerful."  

 

From the other perspective, niche builds were lost.  Perma-Hasten + MoG was the go-to for Regen scrappers and folks like me were looked at with awe when we just wouldn't die even though we didn't have MoG.  I didn't do the damage I can do now, but that wasn't what I wanted to build at the time.  

This is the difference, Wavicle:  I can't achieve what I had before ED with certain niche builds that focused on a singular aspect of the character's powerset.  I am forced to deal with the diminishing returns and slot powers I wouldn't have prior to ED, simply because the ED makes it not worth 6 slotting.  Even with IOs, I can't get 200% regen capability each out of Fast Healing and Integration.  The IOs don't provide that much regen, even with set bonuses.  

 

When I say that ED killed builds, I'm not denying that there was a shift in "power".  ED forced people to go towards damage, and accuracy, and the secondary effects were largely ignored.  "Power" is great, but it results in steamrolling of content.  No matter how I slot, I can't make an electric blaster that will eat 90% of your endurance with one snipe attack.  Before ED, I could.  Your definition of "power" ignores the secondary effect builds that added a layer of complexity and nuance to the game and the encounters and allowed two people within the same AT, and same powersets to still feel different and unique.  I think ED took that away.  Whether it is a good thing or a bad thing depends entirely on your individual playstyle.

[Wavicle]

11 minutes ago, kubwulf said:

 

ED forced people to go towards damage, and accuracy, and the secondary effects were largely ignored. 

 

Most of what you're talking about there is about Regen specifically getting nerfed. That's independent of ED. But this specific statement I've isolated because it is completely ridiculous. Nobody slotted secondary effects before ED. Attacks were almost always slotted with 5 or 6 damage.