Its hard to talk about Vigilence.

[kelika2]

can it retain the 30% damage buff and maybe gain 3% more damage per party member?  totaling up to 51% more damage isnt game breaking

With defenders low base damage, and low damage cap it should be more tolerable or at least encourage people to take attacks or maybe consider playing a defender.

 

Yes I know corrs are a thing

yes I know that being at 51+100(enhancements) all the time is half their damage cap
 

But damn, what few character ideas I have left are held back by either replaying corr again or being put off by super low damage.

[Glacier Peak]

I think 30% is amazing solo. It shouldn't go higher while teaming because players already get +dmg buffs. 

[arcane]

Defender damage is fine, and far more than fine with IO’s.. Sorry but this one is definitely a no. When a solid portion of your vocal experienced players are acting like Defenders are so good they render Corruptors obsolete (I disagree but it’s a thing), this is the last thing you want to do.

 

It sounds like you may want to swing by the Defender subforum for some damage help though.

Edited October 15, 2021 by arcane

[SeraphimKensai]

The 30% is great solo. However if I'm playing a fairly offensive based defender I'm hesitant to team as each person on the team debuffs me, so I want them to be able to carry their own weight.

 

I'd be really cool with them getting rid of the scaling teammate based nerf.

[PeregrineFalcon]

[Apparition]

Absolutely not.  Defenders already do too much damage as it is.  If you want to play an offending Defender, make a Corruptor instead.

[Riverdusk]

Yeah, I wouldn't be against vigilance doing something more than currently while teamed, but don't think more damage is the way to go.  As noted, if anything that should be more how corruptor's need some more help (I still think scourge should kick in a bit sooner for instance).

[kelika2]

I knew I shoulda put "inb4 corr" in the OP somewhere

[Greycat]

On 10/15/2021 at 11:02 AM, kelika2 said:

can it retain the 30% damage buff and maybe gain 3% more damage per party member?  totaling up to 51% more damage isnt game breaking

 

 

... except Defenders can already debuff enemies ridiculously, depending on set (or buff teammates.) Individual damage isn't the point. Not to mention buffing their team and often themselves.

 

They don't need the buff in teams. The team, in essence, is their buff (and can get absolutely silly levels of ridiculous with multiple defenders - see also Repeat Offenders.)

[kelika2]

20 minutes ago, Greycat said:

 

... except Defenders can already debuff enemies ridiculously

I am pretty damn sure -resist debuffs are calculated from base-unslotted un-buffed damage in each attack so its not adding nearly as much as people think.  and with enough corruptors doing the same (or BP lore pets) a -resist cap can be hit.

The 20-25% gain on buffs and debuffs on defenders vs troll/corrs secondaries is not huge when you look them up and does not come anywhere close to making up from the lack of damage.  With that said, the 51% damage bonus wont break the game or even come close to other archetypes but still help Defenders

[Dark Current]

The real problem with Vigilance is... everything.

 

1) My damage goes down if I team.

2) I don't get endurance discount if I do my job.

 

Genius design for a team-centric protector AT.

[Ignatz the Insane]

I think Defenders are in a good spot.  And yes, I play a lot of Defenders...my main is a Dark Defender.  Adding a 51% buff to Defender damage on a team would make Corrupters practically useless(I already prefer Defenders to Corrupters).  This isn't a change I support.

[kelika2]

27 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Adding a 51% buff to Defender damage on a team would make Corrupters practically useless

Between a higher base damage and scourge, this is not remotely true.

 

Lots of theorycrafters do not realize how much base damage factors into everything

[kelika2]

1 minute ago, kelika2 said:

Between a higher base damage and scourge, this is not remotely true.

 

Lots of theorycrafters do not realize how much base damage factors into everything

its been like a year and im still not used to the new edit button location.

Edited October 17, 2021 by kelika2

[aethereal]

8 hours ago, kelika2 said:

I am pretty damn sure -resist debuffs are calculated from base-unslotted un-buffed damage in each attack so its not adding nearly as much as people think.

 

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting here, but I'm pretty sure that it's wrong.

 

Resist debuffs are a multiplier on total damage that an enemy takes, including all damage buffs.  If you have an attack that does 100 base damage, you have it enhanced with 95% damage, and there's a team buff that does +20% damage, plus a proc triggers for 71.75 on that attack, and the enemy has a -20% damage resistance debuff, then total damage is:

(100 * (1 + .95 + .2) + 71.75) * 1.2 = 344.1 damage

[TheZag]

I was gonna say lets get PeregrineFalcon in here to drop a jranger gif but i see he already has.

 

Vigilence didnt use to exist and it was meant to give defenders a damage boost so they could solo a little easier.  Not so they could have +30% damage at all times and up to 21% more while on a team.

[arcane]

7 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Between a higher base damage and scourge, this is not remotely true.

 

Lots of theorycrafters do not realize how much base damage factors into everything

It’s already apparent you don’t understand how much damage defenders are capable of. Discussion’s pretty much over, this is such an obvious lolno.

 

Hop over to the Defender subforum for build help, the AT already does enough of what you seek.

[kelika2]

6 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

but I'm pretty sure that it's wrong.

Neither of us sounds 100% sure, but in large scale raids how often do you see 4 digit damage attacks in your combat tab?

[kelika2]

2 hours ago, TheZag said:

 jranger

Can you explain what this is?

[aethereal]

9 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Neither of us sounds 100% sure, but in large scale raids how often do you see 4 digit damage attacks in your combat tab?

I am 100% sure of how resistance debuffs work.  I'm not 100% sure of what you're saying about how it works.

 

There are negative resistance caps (I forget what they are offhand), and resistance resists resistance debuffs, and the purple patch applies to resistance debuffs (so a +4 enemy takes approximately half of the listed debuff value), all of which can limit the total damage that you do against a heavily debuffed enemy.  But you seem to be imagining that they work more like how damage enhancement works, and that's not true.

[aethereal]

9 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Can you explain what this is?

It means "I think your idea is bad and I don't want it to be implemented."

[arcane]

15 hours ago, kelika2 said:

I am pretty damn sure -resist debuffs are calculated from base-unslotted un-buffed damage in each attack so its not adding nearly as much as people think.  and with enough corruptors doing the same (or BP lore pets) a -resist cap can be hit.

The 20-25% gain on buffs and debuffs on defenders vs troll/corrs secondaries is not huge when you look them up and does not come anywhere close to making up from the lack of damage.  With that said, the 51% damage bonus wont break the game or even come close to other archetypes but still help Defenders

I’m guessing you came up with this assumption as a way of explaining why attacks aren’t constantly hitting for 2k damage, instead of taking into account mob debuff resistance, etc.

 

That being said, with a lot of -res (like, Poison, Trick Arrow, etc.), you can in fact see wild things of that sort. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by arcane

[TheZag]

35 minutes ago, kelika2 said:

Can you explain what this is?

 

Jranger was a person on the original game forums that would post long explanations for why he was against something.  After his posts went largely ignored he started to just reply 'no' instead of a long explanation.  

 

Eventually the original devs said you arent allowed to just reply 'no' so people started using /jranger in place of no.  It was used widely enough that they made another rule that you cant use /jranger.

 

In this case,  taking a buff that was meant to help an AT solo better and then say it should remain while on a team and get even stronger only needed a comment of no.  Or in this case /jranger.

[Carnifax]

37 minutes ago, arcane said:

I’m guessing you came up with this assumption as a way of explaining why attacks aren’t constantly hitting for 2k damage, instead of taking into account mob debuff resistance, etc.

 

That being said, with a lot of -res (like, Poison, Trick Arrow, etc.), you can in fact see wild things of that sort. 

Couple this with the Purple Patch. A +3 enemy only takes 0.65 of normal damage from your attacks. AND your -Resists will be only 0.65 as effective as normal. 

 

 

[Riverdusk]

18 hours ago, kelika2 said:

  and with enough corruptors doing the same (or BP lore pets) a -resist cap can be hit.

 

 

Per the wiki the resist debuff cap is -300%.  That is something that is almost never going to be reached (especially once you factor in purple patch) in anything outside of specially constructed teams or very rare situations.   I'd consider it a non-factor.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Limits#Damage_Resistance

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Riverdusk