Do IOs have a Limit of 3?

[drgantz]

I read an article saying that SOs diminish in effectiveness after 3 of a type, for example, if a power has more than 3 defense SOs, the effectiveness will diminish after the first 3.  Is that true of IOs as well?  Can I have a  power with 6 defense IOs, etc?

[Greycat]

It's *slightly* more complicated than that. It's easy to remember a "rule of 3" with SOs, since they give the same amount (regardless of level) of boost (at even con.) IOs, at least commons, give a consistent *different* amount at each level - so it's not a matter of just saying "yes."

 

You could put six level 15 defense IOs in and not be hit as much... or use two level 50s (I believe boosted,) since a 15 boosts less.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification

 

(Looking at it, the description there should be tweaked as it mentions SOs, HOs, etc. and "dual origin" could be - but more important is the value, so ... yes, it does affect IOs as well, if you're wondering. Need to figure out and edit in better wording.)

Edited October 26, 2021 by Greycat

[Without_Pause]

In terms of IOs, you will likely only six slot a def based power if you are aiming for the bonus for that spot since one of them might be just slotting for end/recharge. In a toggle, recharge is nearly irrelevant.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Apart from ED (linked above) limiting the usefulness of SOs/Basic IOs past X number, if you are using SET IOs, there's a limit of 5 specific buffs.

 

Example: If you have sets slotted in your build and 6 of the set bonuses grant +10% regen, you'll only get +50% regen as the 6th bonus will not function. A partial exception to this rule is with the Luck of the Gambler +7.5% recharge IO. You can have up to 5 of those AND 5 regular set bonuses that also grant +7.5% recharge.

[Ironblade]

5 hours ago, drgantz said:

I read an article saying that SOs diminish in effectiveness after 3 of a type, for example, if a power has more than 3 defense SOs, the effectiveness will diminish after the first 3.  Is that true of IOs as well?  Can I have a  power with 6 defense IOs, etc?

Firstly, what do you mean by "6 defense IOs"?

If you mean six IOs that boost defense, then you probably don't want that.

If you mean six IOs from one or more 'defense sets', then that could be fine.  Could.

 

Powers come in categories that determine how much they can  be enhanced before hitting 'diminishing returns'.  The main power effects (damage, accuracy, recharge, end reduction, end modification, healing) start to suffer diminishing returns around 80-85% enhancement and it gets worse as you approach 100% buff.  Unless you're trying for perma-Hasten or something very specific, you don't want to bother trying for more than about 90% enhancement.  The slots are better spent elsewhere.

 

Defense and resistance are in a different category.  They suffer diminishing returns starting around 50% enhancement.  I usually aim for about 55% enhancement on these powers.

 

There are other categories that I won't go into since they're oddball items (knockback increase, interrupt reduction).

[Doomguide2005]

     To go into slightly more specific terminology (useful if looking through or for a wiki article, for instance) that @Ironbladeis talking about are called Schedules.  They are Schedules A,B,C, and D.  The first and largest group is Schedule A.  The second group is Schedule B and so forth.  For all of them it pretty much denotes where the drop off in the return on value of the enhancements occur do to ED.  Schedules C and D currently consist of one type of enhancement each, Interrupt and Knockback respectively.  The remaining 24 enhancement types (or Aspects) are either A or B.  Schedule B enhancements are Range, Defense Buff, Resist Damage, To Hit Buff and To Hit Debuff.  The remaining 19 are all Schedule A.  

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

A partial exception to this rule is with the Luck of the Gambler +7.5% recharge IO. You can have up to 5 of those AND 5 regular set bonuses that also grant +7.5% recharge.

It's not an exception -- they're named differently, which is the determinant. The former is "Luck of the Gambler: Recharge Speed", and the latter is "Huge Recharge Bonus".

 

Another example, from the wiki: Blood Mandate has amongst its set bonuses both a "Small Increased Fire/Cold/AoE Def Bonus" and a "Huge Increased AoE/Fire/Cold Def Bonus". Both of these provide 1.88% to Fire and Cold defense; however, since they have different names, they are separately subject to the Law of Fives, and a character can slot this set up to five times and get both copies of the 1.88% bonus up to five times each (assuming no other sets with the same bonuses).

[EmperorSteele]

If you're talking about basic IOs (that aren't part of a set), then the drop off is closer to 2. If you take two level 50 Recharge IOs (roughly -43% recharge each) and slap them into Hasten, you've already hit the ED drop point. Adding a third would only yield an extra 2 or 3 points of recharge... which you can also achieve by boosting the existing two IOs to 50+5 and save yourself a slot to use elsewhere

[tidge]

Because I only have a fixed amount of mental capacity, I use this rule of thumb to remember when the diminishing returns for an Enhancement(*1) kicks i (since it varies by type): "Self, ya know how a level 50 Hami-O will enhance at least two attributes of a power? Two level 50 HOs of the same type will get you to the point where ED (Enhancement Diversification) is just about to kick in."

 

(*1) the attributes of powers may hit the point of diminishing returns even if the enhancements haven't hit the "ED point". YMMV, but you can have that extra 0.12 damage when you pry it from the cold, dead hands of my Stalker.

[Yomo Kimyata]

To OP, it’s not the number of enhancements that are limited, it’s the amount of enhancement that has diminishing returns.  So for schedule A stuff (like damage), it is easy to get 70% enhancement.  It’s difficult to get 100% enhancement.  It may be impossible to get 150% (from enhancements).

[InvaderStych]

2 hours ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

To OP, it’s not the number of enhancements that are limited, it’s the amount of enhancement that has diminishing returns.  So for schedule A stuff (like damage), it is easy to get 70% enhancement.  It’s difficult to get 100% enhancement.  It may be impossible to get 150% (from enhancements).

 

The high 90s is possible with substantial over-slotting.  Tends mostly tends to happen with dmg and high-end sets.  Musculature Core at T4 will push that into the mid 130s tops, if I am remembering the numbers correctly, maybe 140 something in an extreme case.  Those partially ignore diminishing returns though; so outside of using the Alpha slot to by-pass ED then Sched A tops out in the 90s, B somewhere in the mid 50s, also requiring substantial over-slotting and also typical in sets when slotting 4-6 pieces.

 

Edit: looks like one can hit 101.3 via 5 slotting VR/Winter sets.  There's a lot of tapering off at that point though.

Edited October 28, 2021 by InvaderStych

[Without_Pause]

56 minutes ago, tidge said:

Because I only have a fixed amount of mental capacity, I use this rule of thumb to remember when the diminishing returns for an Enhancement(*1) kicks i (since it varies by type): "Self, ya know how a level 50 Hami-O will enhance at least two attributes of a power? Two level 50 HOs of the same type will get you to the point where ED (Enhancement Diversification) is just about to kick in."

 

(*1) the attributes of powers may hit the point of diminishing returns even if the enhancements haven't hit the "ED point". YMMV, but you can have that extra 0.12 damage when you pry it from the cold, dead hands of my Stalker.

Went looking at level 53 HOs on the market, and this just further confirms level 50s will be more than enough. No reason to double the cost of a build for a few HOs.

[tidge]

2 hours ago, Without_Pause said:

Went looking at level 53 HOs on the market, and this just further confirms level 50s will be more than enough. No reason to double the cost of a build for a few HOs.

 

That Inf isn't spending itself!

 

Others will have different opinions, but I almost exclusively only use HO if I have a limited number of slots in a power because:

• I simply didn't want to invest (more) slots to in the power, and I want to enhance multiple attributes of the power
• I filled the other slots with things like %procs, and I want to enhance multiple attributes of the power

In both cases, it's not really a high priority for my builds but almost every build has some power that could use one (or four, or eight)

[Without_Pause]

Well, I was mostly looking at level 50 HOs compared to level 53s. 50s are sanely priced. I'm surprised I don't see Hami done more often or at all with the market being what it is. 

[Dazl]

1 hour ago, Without_Pause said:

Well, I was mostly looking at level 50 HOs compared to level 53s. 50s are sanely priced. I'm surprised I don't see Hami done more often or at all with the market being what it is. 

Hami raids are done everyday. 

[Without_Pause]

43 minutes ago, Dazl said:

Hami raids are done everyday. 

I can't recall the last time I have seen one in chat. Maybe they are done in other channels, but I almost exclusively use LFG. I tend to get on later, so I'm wondering if that is it. 

[Greycat]

50 minutes ago, Without_Pause said:

I can't recall the last time I have seen one in chat. Maybe they are done in other channels, but I almost exclusively use LFG. I tend to get on later, so I'm wondering if that is it. 

 

Which server are you on? Everlasting has three double raids a day (and two MSRs in between,) every afternoon/evening.

 

[Without_Pause]

Excelsior

[Dazl]

Excelsior has a 10pm (EST) hami raid everyday. Doesn’t always get advertised because it fills pretty fast. On Everlasting they do daily raids at 7pm, 10pm and midnight. Torchbearer does has a daily raid at 7pm.

[Without_Pause]

Huh. I logged in around 9:30-10:30 and I don't think I have seen anything in months. I'll have to start looking for it.