SCRAPPERS AND TAUNT

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

Aggro control is not their job, killing shit expeditiously and without any support is.

 

You already know that I'm fine with either stripping taunt auras across the board or adding them to all but on this one point it should be noted that taunt auras specifically ASSIST in killing shit expeditiously by keeping enemies packed tightly for AoEs.

[arcane]

My Scrappers are /Ice, /Shield, /Nin, /Rad, and /Bio, off the top of my head. Purely for the record I don’t notice a damn bit of difference in my own play. Not to say it’s not a real thing.

[Deuce Spade]

9 minutes ago, arcane said:

My Scrappers are /Ice, /Shield, /Nin, /Rad, and /Bio, off the top of my head. Purely for the record I don’t notice a damn bit of difference in my own play. Not to say it’s not a real thing.

If you're using the slow aura on /Ice (which I love), the only one that would perform noticeably different from all your other taunt auras would be /nin.  I notice the problem most on damage aura secondaries without a taunt, but for whatever reason my AOE primary /SR toons also. 

 

Do any of those other toons share a primary with your /nin guy?  If so, you can make a half-assed comparison that way.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Deuce Spade

[arcane]

45 minutes ago, Deuce Spade said:

If you're using the slow aura on /Ice (which I love), the only one that would perform noticeably different from all your other taunt auras would be /nin.  I notice the problem most on damage aura secondaries without a taunt, but for whatever reason my AOE primary /SR toons also. 

 

Do any of those other toons share a primary with your /nin guy?  If so, you can make a half-assed comparison that way.

Yeah they’re all different primaries. And it’s EM/Nin so perhaps the least concerned of all 5 with AoE. And therefore the primary potentially least bothered by scattered mobs.

Edited November 12, 2021 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

It's ugly game design and should have been corrected back on live.

I completely understand, and agree with you, that things should be consistent. I like consistency. And yes, Brawl, and everything else, should Crit and Scourge if they Contain.

 

However, sets having differences, even if those differences are inconsistent and came about by happenstance rather than careful planning, is a good thing too. It's one of the reasons to roll alts.

 

Some Scrapper primaries have knocks, some have stuns, some have DOTs. And some Scrapper secondaries have taunt auras and some don't. And then there's Willpower which has a weak taunt aura. (IIRC they only fixed it on Brutes and Tanks)

 

45 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Or is that, too, just a complete waste of time when too many simply don't give a shit about game balance and don't care when things are broken when it doesn't affect them?

Well, one of the Homecoming devs did post that they are not going to go back and add a taunt aura to Scrapper secondaries that don't have them. I don't believe that they don't care. It appears to me that they just don't believe that it's broken or that it adversely affects game balance.

 

Personally, as I've said, I like the fact that some Scrappers have a taunt aura and some don't. However, I'd love some serious rocket surgery to explain to me why I'm wrong. Few things I love more than reading other people's work.  😁

[Deuce Spade]

14 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Personally, as I've said, I like the fact that some Scrappers have a taunt aura and some don't. However, I'd love some serious rocket surgery to explain to me why I'm wrong. Few things I love more than reading other people's work.  😁

This is a pretty good explanation about mobs running, and tracks with what I've observed and reported in this thread.  It also explains why I see it more on /SR, as they both miss lots of attacks and hit the -health threshold.

[Bill Z Bubba]

22 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I completely understand, and agree with you, that things should be consistent. I like consistency. And yes, Brawl, and everything else, should Crit and Scourge if they Contain.

 

Finding areas of agreement often leads to compromise.

 

24 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

However, sets having differences, even if those differences are inconsistent and came about by happenstance rather than careful planning, is a good thing too. It's one of the reasons to roll alts.

 

But I can't reconcile this with the prior statement. Partly because of your next statement:

 

27 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Some Scrapper primaries have knocks, some have stuns, some have DOTs. And some Scrapper secondaries have taunt auras and some don't. And then there's Willpower which has a weak taunt aura. (IIRC they only fixed it on Brutes and Tanks)

 

Having different secondary effects for our primary powersets absolutely provides both flavor and different tools to get the job done and in most cases it works out quite well. But then there's poor ol' fiery melee. An attack set with absolutely no mitigation and a secondary effect of nothing but more damage and yet compared to the other attack sets, it's pretty much crap on the damage front. It's so bad that the only reason to ever choose it is for concept. That's bad design and creates an imbalance. And it's just one case where balance has been flatly ignored. And if something broken is never fixed, it does show a lack of care. It shows apathy.

 

And that leads right back into why I end up getting fixated on these topics even when in the back of my head I keep hearing "ain't nuthin gonna happen."

 

I HAVE to consider the state of taunt auras on scrappers broken because it's so easy to show the lack of balance that it creates. Create two scrappers, X/inv and a X/sr. On the whole, the two secondaries provide very similar levels of mitigation throughout the game but the X/inv is going to be more effective at doing the job of the scrapper simply because of the taunt aura. This isn't a flavor issue, it's a performance/balance issue.

 

I get the argument that sometimes it's nice to not have a taunt aura. It's because I get it that I would actually be ok if all the taunt auras were removed. It's certainly not my preference but at least it would be balanced. I mean... regen already sucks enough as it is. Giving it a taunt aura would just be freaking mean, but again, at least more balance would be achieved and then maybe regen would get fixed.

 

I just can't accept flavor as a worthwhile argument for leaving something imbalanced and thus broken.

 

Course ... now I kinda want to make a fire/regen scrapper because that has to be the worst possible combo for a scrapper.

[Deuce Spade]

Quote

Course ... now I kinda want to make a fire/regen scrapper because that has to be the worst possible combo for a scrapper.

That was my last 50 on live.  He was very fun leveling.  Very engaging, and /regen is maybe the only secondary that wants mobs to leave.

 

Quote

I get the argument that sometimes it's nice to not have a taunt aura. It's because I get it that I would actually be ok if all the taunt auras were removed. It's certainly not my preference but at least it would be balanced.

Not my preference either, but I can't argue it would make more sense.  If that happened I would just quit playing scrappers, and stalkers would be my melee dps choice.  There is a reason they aren't as popular as other melee ATs, and it's lack of taunt aura (and ok, some sets with shitty AOE).

 

I was blown away that this topic generated such controversy, but I suspect it comes down to playstyle.  People who mostly team, or team often, won't be as bothered by it.  People who solo most often are going to be very bothered by it, particularly if they have high difficulty settings and mobs are more likely to hit that -health threshold instead of die.

 

<edit> and to be fair to other posters, there may be someone who genuinely likes running after mobs heading in different directions.  It's baffling to me, but I guess it's a thing.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Deuce Spade

[PeregrineFalcon]

50 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But then there's poor ol' fiery melee. An attack set with absolutely no mitigation and a secondary effect of nothing but more damage and yet compared to the other attack sets, it's pretty much crap on the damage front. It's so bad that the only reason to ever choose it is for concept.

Wait, what? Really?

 

Peregrine Falcon was a Fiery Melee/Shield Scrapper on the retail servers (which reminds me, I still need to get him to 50 on Homecoming). And he seemed to do incredible damage. I never actually analyzed the numbers or anything though. I didn't realize that Fiery Melee was no longer the king of AoE melee damage. Of course this was before Titan Weapons.

 

There's no angry face smiley/emoji. Where is my angry face emoji!?!?!

 

Back on to taunt auras though, I see your point. And yes, giving Regen a taunt aura would just be mean, but Invuln would have a hard time surviving without one. Whether to add taunt auras to the sets that don't have them or take them away from the ones that do. Well, all I can say is this is one of those situations where I'm glad that I don't have to make the decision, because I'm not sure that any decision, including doing nothing at all, is the right call.

[Aurora_Girl]

4 hours ago, Deuce Spade said:

This is a pretty good explanation about mobs running, and tracks with what I've observed and reported in this thread.  It also explains why I see it more on /SR, as they both miss lots of attacks and hit the -health threshold.

 

Wouldn't the "takes enough damage to flee, but not to die" running mob be...an indication you're not scrappering hard enough?

[Deuce Spade]

20 minutes ago, Aurora_Girl said:

 

Wouldn't the "takes enough damage to flee, but not to die" running mob be...an indication you're not scrappering hard enough?

Yes, that's definitely it.  I am a noob and I need to learn to play.

[blue4333]

Honestly creating a taunt global IO usable by all ATs would probably stop enabling the messiah complexes that Tanks have. 

[Deuce Spade]

2 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Honestly creating a taunt global IO usable by all ATs would probably stop enabling the messiah complexes that Tanks have. 

I don't have a single problem with tanks, but that is an original and elegant solution.

[AerialAssault]

>Sticks Global Taunt IO into Psychic Wail on my FF/Psi Defender

>Jumps into a crowd of enemies
>Screams
>Activates Personal Force Field

 

[Haijinx]

Do you need to taunt Dead Horses to beat them? 

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Do you need to taunt Dead Horses to beat them?

 

Nope. Death is a permanent hold. No runners or loss of DPS occurs.

 

And it's not a dead horse when it gets discussed during powerset creation.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Nope. Death is a permanent hold. No runners or loss of DPS occurs.

 

And it's not a dead horse when it gets discussed during powerset creation.

 

I think Capt PH should reconsider when it comes to regen though.

 

It seriously can handle aggro.   

 

Maybe a 20 foot taunt aura would work.

[hejtmane]

The comprise I have is that we remove the taunt from the secondary and move it to all the primary. My suggestion is since no one really  ever takes the garbage single target taunt on scrappers we turn it into a taunt aura. 

That way anyone that wants a taunt aura takes it from the primary since we already have a taunt power it just now an aoe toggle and anyone that does not want one can skip the taunt.

 

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, hejtmane said:

The comprise I have is that we remove the taunt from the secondary and move it to all the primary. My suggestion is since no one really  ever takes the garbage single target taunt on scrappers we turn it into a taunt aura. 

That way anyone that wants a taunt aura takes it from the primary since we already have a taunt power it just now an aoe toggle and anyone that does not want one can skip the taunt.

 

 

I do, if I like the animation.  Sometimes just because I have a power slot open and think, "I can taunt the AV"

[DreadShinobi]

@Bill Z Bubba 

Do you have a claws/fire scrapper?

If you do why do you hate it?

If you do not why not?

 

Spoiler: the answer is the same for both.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, DreadShinobi said:

@Bill Z Bubba 

Do you have a claws/fire scrapper?

If you do why do you hate it?

If you do not why not?

 

Spoiler: the answer is the same for both.

 

I do not. I have a claws/fire brute for farming and a fire/nrg tank that was an nrg/fire brute back before the snap. Fire armor is too squishy for me without tank values in non-farming content. I also don't have any dark, elec or ice scrappers. I didn't have regen either until creating the fire/regen scrapper the other day but that will probably just be slapped together on beta just so I can feel how horrifically weak it will be and deleted from live.

[InvaderStych]

  

Ok, a lot to digest here since I was last in the thread, some very valid points made, and I think perhaps we should back away from the question for a second and try to settle upon the identity of a Scrapper, as the question of Taunt has been brought up in several threads since the release of Stone armor for Scrappers to Open Beta.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 11:26 AM, Aurora_Girl said:

Well as I have said in our Discord conversations, I think before any change is even fully fleshed out and suggested, the idea of what is "inherent" to the Scrapper AT (or, really, all of them) should be hashed out.

 

Absolutely. At the moment we seem to have camps who are focused upon the mechanical efficiency of the taunt mechanic while others are focused on trying to nudge scrappers into something more unique than just a "Less Durable Brute With Critical Hits."

 

On 11/12/2021 at 11:26 AM, Aurora_Girl said:

Scrappers (should) trade aggro management and superior survivability for WAY higher base damage and Critical Hits. Full stop. Taunt doesn't affect your pylon time, or your AV soloing, the only thing people seem to care about is chasing runners...

 

1000% agree with this idea.  I would re-phrase that people care about how taunt makes the game mechanically more efficient/simpler to play.  Which is totally fine.  I get it.  But if that is the desired play-style, Brutes are around the corner.

 

So, for sake of balance - because @Bill Z Bubba is the most correct when it comes to balance issues between scrapper secondaries - although it is far more than just taunt/no-taunt that differentiate them, imo.  Adding a taunt to /SR or /Nin (thematically, why, really?) isn't going to make them suddenly faster in Trapdoor clear times than Bio or /SD simply because those sets have tools that dramatically increase damage output.

 

However, the converse is also true.  Removing taunt from all of the scrapper secondaries isn't going to change the performance rankings all that much either.  /Fire will still be too squishy for most outside of dedicated team-only builds, /Regen will still be broken, etc etc ...

 

On 11/12/2021 at 11:31 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

You already know that I'm fine with either stripping taunt auras across the board or adding them to all but on this one point it should be noted that taunt auras specifically ASSIST in killing shit expeditiously by keeping enemies packed tightly for AoEs.

 

Undeniably.  A Taunt aura is the most mechanically efficient was for a melee toon to solo through content expeditiously.  The question is do we really need 3 classes of melee with that as a focus?  This is a non-issue on teams; and when I solo "mechanical efficiency" isn't really my goal anyway.

 

So how about this: how much of a damage increase to scrappers would it take for the trade-off of losing all taunt from the ATs auras in order for that to feel balanced against your Brutes?

 

Is it possible to give them said increase without stepping on the toes of Stalkers? Should it be a base dmg increase? A cap increase? Target Cap/AoE size buffs?

 

On 11/12/2021 at 3:31 PM, Deuce Spade said:

I was blown away that this topic generated such controversy, but I suspect it comes down to playstyle.  People who mostly team, or team often, won't be as bothered by it.  People who solo most often are going to be very bothered by it, particularly if they have high difficulty settings and mobs are more likely to hit that -health threshold instead of die.

 

People who's primary focus is maximum mechanical efficiency will be bothered by it, mostly when solo.  As it is a non-issue on teams, I don't see why the entire AT needs to be relegated to the role of "Nerfed Brute with RNG Burst DMG" simply for the sake of mechanical efficiency.

 

On 11/12/2021 at 3:31 PM, Deuce Spade said:

<edit> and to be fair to other posters, there may be someone who genuinely likes running after mobs heading in different directions.  It's baffling to me, but I guess it's a thing.

 

Please stop making value judgements about what other people consider fun.  Save that sort of vitriol for Facebook, it serves no purpose here.  I don't think wading through static mobs that are racing to be the first to die in the swarm around me is all that fun or interesting, but I see no reason to pass judgement over those that do.

Edited November 14, 2021 by InvaderStych
phrasing

[Deuce Spade]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I do not. I have a claws/fire brute for farming and a fire/nrg tank that was an nrg/fire brute back before the snap. Fire armor is too squishy for me without tank values in non-farming content. I also don't have any dark, elec or ice scrappers. I didn't have regen either until creating the fire/regen scrapper the other day but that will probably just be slapped together on beta just so I can feel how horrifically weak it will be and deleted from live.

I have a fire/fire scrapper, a MA/SR, a StJ/DA, all at level 50.  They are stripped of enhancements and retired, but I have them, and I played them.  They are playable in a solo situation, and I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, but they are definitely hindered by the lack of a taunt aura.

 

The difference is so noticeable that I can't make myself play the other sets anymore, and that's the only reason I want the change - I want to play them all without feeling like I'm spending extra effort and time.  I want them to be reasonably close in performance to the taunt aura sets.  I'm not interested in farming with scrappers (or anything else really, it's mind-numbing).  I want balance between the scrapper secondaries for the same reason most posters here argue for other balance changes. 

[Deuce Spade]

1 minute ago, InvaderStych said:

Please stop making value judgements about what other people consider fun.  Save that sort of vitriol for Facebook, it serves no purpose here.  I don't think wading through static mobs that are racing to be the first to die in the swarm around me is all that fun or interesting, but you don't see me making derogatory comments about those who do enjoy that style.

Woah, I think you need to back up a second.  If there were complaints to be made about tone in this thread, I'd be the one on high ground.  There have been many, many comments suggesting people who want taunt auras were less than intelligent (jamoke) and bad players (need to scrapper harder) and lazy (had to touch my keys during combat).

 

Given that, I'll use light sarcasm as I see fit, and I suggest you give my comment another look, as there was no vitriol there at all.

[Deuce Spade]

15 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

People who's primary focus is maximum mechanical efficiency will be bothered by it, mostly when solo.  As it is a non-issue on teams, I don't see why the entire AT needs to be relegated to the role of "Nerfed Brute with RNG Burst DMG" simply for the sake of mechanical efficiency.

Having the taunt aura is also a non-issue on teams, or so I imagine, so I'm not convinced this changes the scrapper into anything.  Do teams regularly refuse to take the scrappers with taunt auras now?  Do those taunt auras keep tanks from holding aggro?  If there is no tank on the team, do those taunt auras make things harder or easier for other players, or are they barely noticeable?