Hawkeye

[Techwright]

Just saw the first episode of Hawkeye.   Gonna watch the second on Thanksgiving Day to drag it out just a bit, so if I make a comment that doesn't jive with ep. 2 reveals, which some of you've already seen, you'll know why.

 

Thoughts:

Spoiler

Liked it overall.

 

1. Good 2012 backstory.  I was curious to know whether the house set was built to shake as a practical effect, or whether it was done by CGI.

 

2. That wine bottle was almost as durable as the Hulk.

 

3. Having a little trouble suspending belief on a blade with no seam retracting into a handle that is smaller than it.

 

4. That has to be the fastest college security guard in history.

 

5.  Not my own thought but I LOL at the sad realization:  YouTube channel Blind Wave pointed out that Hawkeye fights to save NYC and people thank him with a free big expensive dinner when he visits.  Falcon fights Thanos to save the universe and can't get a loan in his hometown.

 

6. Why does every staged musical involving Steve Rogers turn out so awkward?

 

7. Going way out on a limb here:  I never read the comic book on which this Hawkeye series was based, and I know at least that there was a dog, but I find it very peculiar that the MCU dog  just happened to attack the tracksuit mobster right when he finds the watch from Avengers Headquarters.  Its almost like the dog has a higher intelligence and understood the significance of that find.  Shoot-from-the-hip crazy thought: maybe the MCU dog is actually one of Fury's Skrull friends?  That doesn't seem to explain his confusion in traffic, however.  Hmm... 🤔

 

[Mr. Vee]

You'll be glad to know ep 2 is better than 1, if only because no musical and less of clint's family. I can't decide if I like this version of Kate yet.

[Glacier Peak]

First few episodes were a little light on action, which is understandable as they build the characters up. I am satisfied with the series.

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

Broadway and pup-related spoiler warnings:

Spoiler

6. Why does every staged musical involving Steve Rogers turn out so awkward?

[FX: very Noo Yawk accent].. you should see what they did to the other guy.

 

 

 

IMHO, the whole musical sequence is supposed to feel painfully bad - they deliberately aimed for Springtime For Hitler levels of cringe - because:

• All the other Avengers were invited. Clint's the only one that turns up, partly since three of the others are dead. Awks.
• Seeing a Broadwayized Natasha singing and dancing on stage is not going to be fun for Clint.
• Quite possibly parodying Turn Off The Dark and the general trend for remaking properties as musicals.
  Not that Marvel won't do it if they think there's a buck in it...
   

7 .Going way out on a limb here...maybe the MCU dog is actually one of Fury's Skrull friends? 

In the comics, Lucky is just a Very Good Boy who likes pizza, is unusually smart, and formerly belonged to the Tracksuit Mafia who were mean to him. Clint is kind just by default, and Lucky's unexpected loyalty helps Clint not just fight crime but rebuild his sense of self and ability to form relationships. Being a serial rescue pet owner myself, I'm fully aware they rescue you back. Given everything Clint's been through, that might be enough to build on.

 

It also seems that Lucky is already blind in one eye in the series, so he doesn't have to go through what they put him and Clint through in the comics to earn the name.
We hope. Because that would need tissues.

 

But that all said... 

...this is the MCU, not the comic books, so all bets are off. Skrulls can also impersonate more or less anything with practice from cows to hatstands, or anything without complex moving parts (think Terminator 2's T-1000). I'm not sure how a Skrull would take to life as a Goldie, but I'd probably enjoy it. And get horribly fat begging for treats.

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by ThaOGDreamWeaver
Very Good Edit for a Very Good Boy

[EmperorSteele]

I liked the first two eps so far, but yeah, I wish they revealed a little more about Lucky to give some context (even if it would be a red herring) as to why he randomly attacked the tracksuit guy. Bigger question: why are these guys after Cap's old watch (I'm assuming that's what they were after based on context)?

 

I also like that Kate isn't a total Sue. She's strong, has some skills (which you see she earned in that amazing title sequence), and is fairly astute... but she also gets in over her head, makes dumb decisions, and doesn't realise that everyone is playing her like a fiddle.

 

I don't mind the lack of action, as I prefer the character development and world building they've done. I like the small scale and personal stakes they've set up here, and, unlike in TFatWS, there's good reason for Clint to not want to call in any fellow Avengers (like seriously, where was War Machine when all those senators were being held hostage by Super Soldiers?).

 

Looking forward to the rest of the episodes 🙂

[Mr. Vee]

A tracksuit seems to me to be a sufficient condition to attack someone. Also I refuse to call him anything but Pizza Dog.

[Troo]

wait, I'm wearing a track suit right now in real life.. jewelry free tho, just to clarify.

[Mr. Vee]

A well-trained dog would see the bracelet on your soul.

[Glacier Peak]

That is such a cliche! I never see anyone running in track suits, and if they are its only very briefly to warm up before the real run. 

[Techwright]

15 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

Broadway and pup-related spoiler warnings:

  Hide contents

6. Why does every staged musical involving Steve Rogers turn out so awkward?

[FX: very Noo Yawk accent].. you should see what they did to the other guy.

 

 

 

IMHO, the whole musical sequence is supposed to feel painfully bad - they deliberately aimed for Springtime For Hitler levels of cringe - because:

• All the other Avengers were invited. Clint's the only one that turns up, partly since three of the others are dead. Awks.
• Seeing a Broadwayized Natasha singing and dancing on stage is not going to be fun for Clint.
• Quite possibly parodying Turn Off The Dark and the general trend for remaking properties as musicals.
  Not that Marvel won't do it if they think there's a buck in it...
   

7 .Going way out on a limb here...maybe the MCU dog is actually one of Fury's Skrull friends? 

In the comics, Lucky is just a Very Good Boy who likes pizza, is unusually smart, and formerly belonged to the Tracksuit Mafia who were mean to him. Clint is kind just by default, and Lucky's unexpected loyalty helps Clint not just fight crime but rebuild his sense of self and ability to form relationships. Being a serial rescue pet owner myself, I'm fully aware they rescue you back. Given everything Clint's been through, that might be enough to build on.

 

It also seems that Lucky is already blind in one eye in the series, so he doesn't have to go through what they put him and Clint through in the comics to earn the name.
We hope. Because that would need tissues.

 

But that all said... 

...this is the MCU, not the comic books, so all bets are off. Skrulls can also impersonate more or less anything with practice from cows to hatstands, or anything without complex moving parts (think Terminator 2's T-1000). I'm not sure how a Skrull would take to life as a Goldie, but I'd probably enjoy it. And get horribly fat begging for treats.

 

 

I've seen the 2nd episode now, so I'm caught up.

 

I commented mostly with humorous intent on the musical, as in "poor Steve can't catch a break", but then I saw the video you dropped and... wow, uhh..oh dear. 

 

Though I'd be delighted to find my wild guess on the dog panning out, there's a little thing called Occam's Razor, and your explanation of the dog's tragic origin fits it very well for explaining why he did a targeted attack.  We've just not seen that explanation on screen yet.

 

as to episode 2:

Spoiler

1. I like that Clint has a hearing problem.  His character in the MCU has always been the poster example of the mortal side of the superhero gig. and this extends it by showing permanent cost.  What surprises me, though, is that he only has a single hearing aid.  You'd think Pepper Potts and Stark Industries would make certain he has TWO hearing aids and of the best quality, which probably means hidden or near hidden ones.

 

2.  I like Kate.  I think she'll ultimately prove a worthy replacement to the aging, wanting-to-settle Clint.  That said, they're writing her a bit inconsistent right now.  She's razor sharp at spotting the lie behind the mustache, but then is incredibly naive at standing on glass rooftops and other assorted things that get her into trouble.  Ultimately, I'm sure I'll like her all the way, unless they continue writing the character with this situational naivety.

 

3.  I've read the rumors regarding Kate's mum.  If what they say are true, I'm starting to wonder if there's a very different story to how the events of 2012 played out in the family home during the attack.

 

4. Why isn't Barton bringing in help?  If he needed a safehouse, there's no way a tracksuit mafia is going to find its way into 177A Bleecker Street.  And the good doctor or Wong could probably incinerate the Ronin suit, or drop it in the Himalayans, for that matter.

 

5.  The Larping event was fun, even if over-the-top stupid.  Hawkeye is recognized, states that the outfit was stolen, and the woman's excuse for not letting him pass is that many of the larpers are cops?  Hello! Stolen outfit. They'd be the first to back him, I'd think.  And while on that subject, the fireman just helps himself with the tenant not home and considers this totally justified?  The writing is more than a tad sloppy here.  That said, the idea of sending the former Ronin in to cross a field of "combatants" with plastic weapons is hilarious.  I would have loved it if he didn't hold back and quickly eliminated every opponent in his path to Grills, rather than batting several aside.  His 360 cut though was fabulous.

 

6.  I'm really hoping the 3rd episode shows the NYPD as competent as they move to question Kate.  Between the Larping comments (see point 5) and the fact that a mafia in obvious tracksuits can gather 3 times in the streets, twice with major attacks, and not have any police resistance is a bit undermining of the NYPD.   But we'll probably get something more like Jimmy Woo was in his first outing in the MCU. (Really glad they made him competent, even somewhat brilliant in WandaVision.)

 

7.  Ending on a positive note, I really like that Clint is shown to be immediately a protective dad figure to Kate, going so far as to help her redress her wounds as if he was instructing his own daughter.  I've heard all the criticisms over the years that he's just a guy with a bow and arrows, but this is really whom he is:  the guy that sticks with his charge, no matter how frustrated or weary.  He's not the rock star (Stark) or the idealized hero on a pedestal (Rogers), he's the quiet hero, the down-to-earth role model.  I also really like how he doesn't appear to hold secrets from his wife.  He trusts her.  (And I really like that she merits that trust.)

 

 

[Ulysses Dare]

So far I'm loving Hawkeye. I love how, even though this is clearly setting up a passing of the torch, Kate's obvious talented is nonetheless dwarfed by Clint's experience. This is the best example of his quiet competence that we've seen in the MCU thus far.

 

I'm also glad that the series is kind of a fond farewell to Natasha, from Clint's reaction to her portrayal in the musical to him using one of her favorite plans in episode two. I wasn't wowed by the Black Widow movie so it's nice to see her getting some love here.

[Techwright]

On 11/25/2021 at 10:48 PM, Ulysses Dare said:

... even though this is clearly setting up a passing of the torch,

I wonder how much it actually is, though.  Clearly with a movie every 2 to 3 years Renner wouldn't be able to play the character much longer as an action hero, but if they're building a Young Avengers, as seems very apparent, they're going to need a couple of things:  1) a base. SHIELD is gone (unless they acknowledge a rebuilding, as in the "Agents of..." series), Avengers tower was sold, and Avengers HQ is a pile of rubble.  Clint has the connections to look into getting another base.   2) Mentorship.  The young'ns need someone to show them the way.  Now that could be Bucky and Captain Falcon America, but Clint might make a good coach from the base situation room while Sam quarterbacks.  I guess it depends on how interested Renner is in exploring the character's sunset.

[Ulysses Dare]

23 hours ago, Techwright said:

Clint might make a good coach from the base situation room while Sam quarterbacks.  I guess it depends on how interested Renner is in exploring the character's sunset.

That would be a great way to keep the character around without expecting Renner to keep playing an action hero while in his 50s. Nobody wants a repeat of Indiana Jones IV, after all. And he's got the world-weary mentor persona down cold.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Ulysses Dare

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

That would make sense. I'm still hankering after a proper take

On 11/27/2021 at 4:46 AM, Techwright said:

 2) Mentorship.  The young'ns need someone to show them the way.  Now that could be Bucky and Captain Falcon America, but Clint might make a good coach from the base situation room while Sam quarterbacks.  I guess it depends on how interested Renner is in exploring the character's sunset.

 

I'd very much like that both for Barton and Renner.  A kind of anchor/Coulson/Nate Ford role would suit both their talents very well.

 

On a slight side note, I'm still slightly hankering after Marvel doing Thunderbolts on D+. It's a bit much to stack in a movie, the episodic structure would suit it well, and D+ writers seem to be given enough freedom to throw a few surprises at us. (Though given the source material, is it really a twist if you're EXPECTING to be thrown twists or...) Plus there's plenty of room for redemption arcs, a wide range of characters (with a few obvious adjustments, I'd loooove to play Fixer) and more ZemoBoogieTime.

 

 

[Techwright]

4 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

 (Though given the source material, is it really a twist if you're EXPECTING to be thrown twists or...)

 

 

I'd say "yes, yes it is".  A good example is Marvel's own "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.".  The Whedon style is full of twists, some of them quite shocking, and fans expected it when watching "Agents...".  They were not disappointed.

[Getaways]

I am not sure that it bothers me but Jack kind of resembles Ron burgundy in appearance and demeanor.  But am curious to see how that character progresses.

 

otherwise I have enjoyed the first 2 episodes.  Was cool to see how this story ties back to endgame.  

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

On 11/29/2021 at 3:30 AM, Techwright said:

I'd say "yes, yes it is".  A good example is Marvel's own "Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.".  The Whedon style is full of twists, some of them quite shocking, and fans expected it when watching "Agents...".  They were not disappointed.

 

Definitely started expecting some of them.

(I mean, did Clark just really enjoy a good death scene, or what..?)

 

[Techwright]

14 hours ago, ThaOGDreamWeaver said:

 

(I mean, did Clark just really enjoy a good death scene, or what..?)

 

Coulson did refer to dying as his superpower.  😉

[Techwright]

Episode 3 is in the can, and I liked it, if for no other reason than they ended on a Sammy Davis, Jr. song I'd never heard, but possibly more jingle addictive than his "Candyman" song.

 

Oh, and was that  _________ pinching children's cheeks?  😲

 

Spoiler thoughts:

Spoiler

I absolutely loved that they focused on hearing loss and compensating in this episode.   The scene with Hawkeye trying to understand his kid Nate while suffering from no hearing aid was precious and more than a tad heartbreaking.

 

I was surprised and delighted to see actor Zahn McClarnon in this as Echo's dad, and more than a little disappointed that he exited so soon.  He first caught my eye in Longmire and I was impressed with his skill.

 

I like Kate, but at this stage of the miniseries I understand the track suits' complaint: she's too mouthy.

 

Loved the archery scenes in this.  The trick arrow sequence was pretty crazy.  One never knew what was coming out of the bag.  Well, almost never.  Having any arrow that glowed "Pym" was more than a little telling, but it was fantastic watching it play out.

 

I do hope the end of that '72 Challenger was CGI.  🥺

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Techwright

[Glacier Peak]

1 hour ago, Techwright said:

Episode 3 is in the can, and I liked it, if for no other reason than they ended on a Sammy Davis, Jr. song I'd never heard, but possibly more jingle addictive than his "Candyman" song.

 

Oh, and was that  _________ pinching children's cheeks?  😲

 

Spoiler thoughts:

  Hide contents

I absolutely loved that they focused on hearing loss and compensating in this episode.   The scene with Hawkeye trying to understand his kid Nate while suffering from no hearing aid was precious and more than a tad heartbreaking.

 

I was surprised and delighted to see actor Zahn McClarnon in this as Echo's dad, and more than a little disappointed that he exited so soon.  He first caught my eye in Longmire and I was impressed with his skill.

 

I like Kate, but at this stage of the miniseries I understand the track suits' complaint: she's too mouthy.

 

Loved the archery scenes in this.  The trick arrow sequence was pretty crazy.  One never knew what was coming out of the bag.  Well, almost never.  Having any arrow that glowed "Pym" was more than a little telling, but it was fantastic watching it play out.

 

I do hope the end of that '72 Challenger was CGI.  🥺

 

How did you not comment on the voice!!! 👑🎳

[Techwright]

On 12/1/2021 at 10:08 PM, Glacier Peak said:

How did you not comment on the voice!!! 👑🎳

Had no need to.  The hand and suit said it all.

 

I've had a chance to think over the first three episodes now.  A few thoughts:

Spoiler

1.  Episode 1:  That meeting down the hall between Kate's mom and Armand III - I'd thought the conversation was too soft to pick up much of anything other than a sense of threat.  Going back with the CC turned on proved much more informative.  So Armand III is accusing Kate's mom of building an empire on a lie based on what he saw.  I've not seen any reactors discuss this, but it suggest that Armand III believe Eleanor's security company to have been built or acquired by someone disreputable.  Seems to be a foreshadowing of Kingpin.  Makes sense.  The top man in the underworld would want to keep watch on everyone, and have access to every security tool available.   This might explain Armand III's death.  Whether that was at the hands of Jake or Eleanor, or both, I'm unclear at this stage.

 

2. I'm kind of gimped because I've not read the comics on which this miniseries is based, (though i have heard a few things), so I don't know how close or off this next point would be....Another viewer posed an interesting thought:  What if the Ronin slaughtering the tracksuit guys in Fat Man Auto Repair (another reference to Kingpin in charge?) was not Clint, but rather was stealing the reputation of Ronin, using a similar costume.  This idea has some interesting repercussions:

     A. Clint would be unable to point out the fake Ronin.  Who would he have turned to?

     B. Clint might be off the hook for Echo's dad's death.  We know Clint as Ronin killed.  It's tougher on the viewer though when it looks like their hero killed a guy who might have been redeemed.

     C. It would need to be someone very good with a sword.  Wink, wink.

     D. Fake Ronin might be acting under orders from Kingpin (which most believe is intertwined in this story).  In such a case, Kingpin is eliminating an element that has crossed him without visibly getting his hands dirty with the rest of his organization.  It's merely chalked up to another hit by the real Ronin.  As to an element crossing Kingpin,  Kez points out that Echo's dad always had the interests of his crew first.  Perhaps Kingpin ordered something that conflicted with that mindset.

     E. Discovery of the truth of all this might set Echo off and turn her on the Kingpin and his organization.

     F. Echo would eventually attack the fake Ronin.

 

[WanderingAries]

Gah, these episodes are too short! >.<

[ThaOGDreamWeaver]

My favourite Trick Arrow was the one that...

 

Spoiler

...played Never Gonna Give You Up on a loop, before exploding when anyone tried to shut it off.

 

Oh wait, that's a Rick-arrow.

 

 

 

Maybe that was only in the EPK though?

Darn. Late edits. Dontcha just hate'em?

 

 

[DougGraves]

I have liked Hawkeye.  They have done a great job as mentioned of portraying him as very  competent but not flashy.  He has more skills than just archery.

 

She is interesting.  I don't know her from the comics so I have no investment in her - but she is more fun and interesting than the new black widow whom I didn't care about at all.

 

I am just hoping that Jack turns out to be El Aguila.

[Mr. Vee]

34 minutes ago, DougGraves said:

I have liked Hawkeye.  They have done a great job as mentioned of portraying him as very  competent but not flashy.  He has more skills than just archery.

 

She is interesting.  I don't know her from the comics so I have no investment in her - but she is more fun and interesting than the new black widow whom I didn't care about at all.

 

I am just hoping that Jack turns out to be El Aguila.

he's pretty clearly 

Spoiler

the swordsman

This Kate has grown on me. I do miss the whole vibe from the comics about what a loser Clint is, though. Of course they had 50 years of him in continuity before noticing that unlike the MCU which went a whole other direction.