WindDemon21 Posted December 4, 2021 Share Posted December 4, 2021 Point being, that in it's current form, either you do have to put the kb-kd in it to use it more frequently, or the situation isn't always available to use it effectively. At which point, then it stands again that the power should have more damage, even at the cost of an even longer recharge to make it more impactful when you do use it. Otherwise in it's current form, either yes you do need to slot it for kb-kd, or you end up using it maybe half of it's available time any way like the old nukes used to be like, defeating the purpose of it versus any other nuke with just way too many downsides other than "looking cool". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted December 4, 2021 Share Posted December 4, 2021 (edited) 13 hours ago, WindDemon21 said: Point being, that in it's current form, either you do have to put the kb-kd in it to use it more frequently, or the situation isn't always available to use it effectively. At which point, then it stands again that the power should have more damage, even at the cost of an even longer recharge to make it more impactful when you do use it. Otherwise in it's current form, either yes you do need to slot it for kb-kd, or you end up using it maybe half of it's available time any way like the old nukes used to be like, defeating the purpose of it versus any other nuke with just way too many downsides other than "looking cool". How is any of what you just wrote different from Nova? It’s the same, no? You’d have to position the AoE somewhere besides the middle of a mob to feel like you’re using the KB tactically? But you’d be happier if you just slotted KB->KD in both. I got no qualms with Nova. Unless this is secretly still about the LocAoE. But then, I got no qualms with Blizzard. I think you’re fighting this way too hard. Either deal with the tactical issues of KB or pop Overwhelming Force in there and enjoy your awesome nuke. I did and I freakin love this set.. Edited December 4, 2021 by arcane 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChzBoi Posted December 4, 2021 Share Posted December 4, 2021 19 hours ago, WindDemon21 said: ....... either you do have to put the kb-kd in it to use it more frequently, or the situation isn't always available to use it effectively...... Just here to say that this binary is not in any way true......since playing from month 8ish of live and here on Homecoming since 2019, I've not once,ever, used a 'Knockback-to-Knockdown'....and still manage to enjoy the game and use powers effectively. Please do not assume we all play like you.....we do not. Also, "looking cool" can outweigh everything for some of us - as we can't 'look cool' in real life all the time! 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 13 hours ago, arcane said: How is any of what you just wrote different from Nova? It’s the same, no? You’d have to position the AoE somewhere besides the middle of a mob to feel like you’re using the KB tactically? But you’d be happier if you just slotted KB->KD in both. I got no qualms with Nova. Unless this is secretly still about the LocAoE. But then, I got no qualms with Blizzard. I think you’re fighting this way too hard. Either deal with the tactical issues of KB or pop Overwhelming Force in there and enjoy your awesome nuke. I did and I freakin love this set.. Because you can A: move your positioning as you cast it to determine where the KB comes from. B: It animates sooner. And Last: It gains the benefit of the Gaussians Proc where Meteor does not, as well as also being able to cast it at the end of your aoe chain and still get the benefit of Gaussians/buffs for more aoe damage where Meteor's wears off before the impact actually hits if you do that. It's not "secretly" still about the location aoe. It is OVERTLY about the location aoe, which is what causes as I have just explained pretty much all of the major issues with the power. The KB is annoying yes, but largely in part BECAUSE it is a location power with a long impact time. As I have explained earlier in this thread, Blizzard is WAY different in it's use and benefits it offers. It's not even really in the same stratosphere in comparison mostly. I have been playing with it without the proc, and with the proc. Both just feel too have too many downsides, in big part to the lack of oomph missing the gaussians proc and forced slotting. I have also previously explained in my very last thread that you just quoted before this one why the KB is an issue (again almost entirely due to the part of it being a location power) either forces slotting, or ends up meaning far less use than other nukes due to this poor design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 7 hours ago, ChzBoi said: Just here to say that this binary is not in any way true......since playing from month 8ish of live and here on Homecoming since 2019, I've not once,ever, used a 'Knockback-to-Knockdown'....and still manage to enjoy the game and use powers effectively. Please do not assume we all play like you.....we do not. Also, "looking cool" can outweigh everything for some of us - as we can't 'look cool' in real life all the time! Playing since Issue 1 of live through sunset, making builds during shutdown, and on homecoming within a month of release, I can assure you that I'm not the only one who feels this way. And this is also NOT to say I hate knockback, that it can't be fun, nor that I don't know how to use it. Pre-kb-kd IOs I was one of the only people I knew who actually liked bonfire in it's original way when used properly, rather than it's not cast anywhere nature with the kb-kd in it. However since their additions, it also has changed the way gameplay occurs, how long fights last, and how annoyed most people get when you DON'T use those IO's as it usually ends in fights taking longer to finish etc. Add the crazy knockback that Meteor does tied to location, with the fact that it doesn't gain the Gaussian's proc alone lest the ability to use other aoes prior, does less damage than other nukes, and you're going to have a bad day on teams if you use it more than like twice a mission without the kb-kd IO, which defeats the whole purpose of it's "special" effect compared to other nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, arcane said: Either deal with the tactical issues of KB or pop Overwhelming Force in there and enjoy your awesome nuke Also pointing out, as I've explained ad nauseum, why the nuke isn't actually awesome, and in fact far inferior. It just looks cool. Edited December 5, 2021 by WindDemon21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glacier Peak Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 (edited) It's like someone yelling at themself in an empty room in here 🙃 Edited December 5, 2021 by Glacier Peak 3 Pocket D Zone Tour Best Post Ever.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 10 hours ago, WindDemon21 said: Also pointing out, as I've explained ad nauseum, why the nuke isn't actually awesome, and in fact far inferior. It just looks cool. It’s awesome in practice on both of my completed Seismic Blast characters so far. We’re observing different realities, so it’s time for me to agree to disagree. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavicle Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 9 minutes ago, arcane said: It’s awesome in practice on both of my completed Seismic Blast characters so far. We’re observing different realities, so it’s time for me to agree to disagree. Cheers. Stop having fun, arcane, how dare you? 4 Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 5 hours ago, arcane said: It’s awesome in practice on both of my completed Seismic Blast characters so far. We’re observing different realities, so it’s time for me to agree to disagree. Cheers. That's opinion based though, not fact/math/mechanic based. Which is fine if you think it's fine, I'm just explaining why it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 5, 2021 Share Posted December 5, 2021 Also wanted to take this opportunity that the addition of being able to dismiss detectives didn't go unnoticed and THANK YOU! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 On 11/28/2021 at 7:47 PM, Sovera said: It really isn't. Thunderstrike is slow as molasses Molasses can be pretty fast and deadly, look at what happened on North End, Boston, in 1919. 1 3 Σαυτὸν ἀρίθμησον πρότερον καὶ γνῶθι σεαυτόν, καὶ τότ᾽ ἀριθμήσεις γαῖαν ἀπειρεσίην. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DREAMERS Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) bravo to you for the new earth powers however i am a little disappointed not to see any earth support line i would have hoped that you would create a line that goes with as an affinity crystal where the player could create crystals with it different effects but which can be broken by the enemies finally good me who like playing with support power I am disappointed Edited December 6, 2021 by DREAMERS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, WindDemon21 said: That's opinion based though, not fact/math/mechanic based. Which is fine if you think it's fine, I'm just explaining why it's not. If there is a data set and calculations that proves your point mathematically, can you refer me to it? I think the KB and LocAoE are fine but if you can prove the damage output is far behind I would have no issue with a slight damage or recharge adjustment. I can say I have had no issues with using it as often or as effectively as any other nuke in my own estimation. I suspect people that are corpse blasting with it also do plenty corpse blasting with anything else. I can rarely recall whiffing completely with this. Edited December 6, 2021 by arcane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, arcane said: If there is a data set and calculations that proves your point mathematically, can you refer me to it? I think the KB and LocAoE are fine but if you can prove the damage output is far behind I would have no issue with a slight damage or recharge adjustment. I can say I have had no issues with using it as often or as effectively as any other nuke in my own estimation. I suspect people that are corpse blasting with it also do plenty corpse blasting with anything else. I can rarely recall whiffing completely with this. I have already explained this several times. Maybe base damage and recharge may be "normal" but because of its long impact time and location based nature those mechanics plus the knockback are far too detrimental to the use of the power and its effects. It's a poor design that needs tweaked. As mentioned changing to target based would pretty much solve all the issues I've mentioned for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 18 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said: I have already explained this several times. Maybe base damage and recharge may be "normal" but because of its long impact time and location based nature those mechanics plus the knockback are far too detrimental to the use of the power and its effects. It's a poor design that needs tweaked. As mentioned changing to target based would pretty much solve all the issues I've mentioned for the most part. So your argument is no more mathematical than mine. Welp, again, I am having zero trouble using this one, so, cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 15 minutes ago, arcane said: So your argument is no more mathematical than mine. Welp, again, I am having zero trouble using this one, so, cheers. It is if you read it. The location based nature and the long impact time means that buffs, and especially noticeable the gaussians proc wears off before the impact even hits meaning that it doesn't get the benefit of that making it do less damage. This also means that if you can't do other aoes prior to casting the nuke, as you can with other non-location based nukes, that also equals less total damage that you can do to still have the nuke gain any damage boosts that it can. The knockback nature as well, being so high, and being tied to a location that once cast you can't control the mobs when it actually lands, or yourself in position to those mobs giving you that control, means that the actual use of this power becomes even more situational, meaning that you can't (or shouldn't) use it as often as other nukes. Effectively "increasing" it's recharge in effective combat, or forcing you to slot the kb-kd in a pointless slot cost that other nukes don't have to worry about. Con: Slot cost or more situational effectively giving it a longer recharge time Con: Long impact time means more chance of corpse blasting Con: Long impact on location power means it does not gain gaussians proc boost and other buffs can wear off before it hits as well Con: Location based nature means that with the knockback, mobs move before the actual impact and thus ruining your positioning of the knockback if you don't slot a kb-kd. Ie, less control. When you factor these: Less damage. Longer recharge. Slot cost. compared to other nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcane Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) I’m not sure how your damage buffs are wearing off so quickly that you can’t have the meteor benefit from buffs. Are you doing something between casting damage buffs and casting Meteor? You obviously shouldn’t be. Meteor does not take long enough to hit the ground for any major damage buffs to expire. If Gaussian’s is the only issue maybe we speed up the Meteor strike the 1 second necessary for that to work or whatever? Don’t think the game is balanced around procs but have at it. Every other point has been addressed. I think you forgot to explain how Nova is a garbage power too, which you would have to for half or your points to be relevant. I’m investigating the math and am all for a fix to make it work better with Gaussian’s if used immediately after the proc. Don’t believe that will require a change to the KB or LocAoE. Edited December 6, 2021 by arcane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 8 minutes ago, arcane said: I’m not sure how your damage buffs are wearing off so quickly that you can’t have the meteor benefit from buffs. Are you doing something between casting damage buffs and casting Meteor? You obviously shouldn’t be. Meteor does not take long enough to hit the ground for any major damage buffs to expire. If Gaussian’s is the only issue maybe we speed up the Meteor strike the 1 second necessary for that to work or whatever? Don’t think the game is balanced around procs but have at it. Every other point has been addressed. I think you forgot to explain how Nova is a garbage power too, which you would have to for half or your points to be relevant. Speeding it up 1 second though would still force it to be used first so cast time dpa would still be more of a factor in the build up/gaussians chain. Nova isn't garbage because it's still pbaoe and can get the benefits of gaussians proc, other aoes cast prior and it still getting full buff benefits, and being able to jump as you cast it to position the knockback in addition to the quicker impact still make it superior. Not to mention the faster base recharge. Don't get me wrong compared to other nukes I still *feel* like it's inferior because of the knockback but at least the other issues are handled unlike meteor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, arcane said: I’m not sure how your damage buffs are wearing off so quickly that you can’t have the meteor benefit from buffs. Are you doing something between casting damage buffs and casting Meteor? You obviously shouldn’t be. Meteor does not take long enough to hit the ground for any major damage buffs to expire. If Gaussian’s is the only issue maybe we speed up the Meteor strike the 1 second necessary for that to work or whatever? Don’t think the game is balanced around procs but have at it. Every other point has been addressed. I think you forgot to explain how Nova is a garbage power too, which you would have to for half or your points to be relevant. I’m investigating the math and am all for a fix to make it work better with Gaussian’s if used immediately after the proc. Don’t believe that will require a change to the KB or LocAoE. It does get some, but others wear off too before it hits, mainly gaussians, but also other damage buffs and defiance can as well. It's to note, others may be using build up as well with it i'm sure, and comes down to not seeing it as much, but Toxins most definitely is bugged for the power. But that same thing goes for any other nuke as well too that can or can't get build up so would still apply. Again almost all of it's issues are fixed by being a targeted power instead of aoe which it does not need to be location for any reason. Perhaps a revisit of pseudopets getting full buffs for their duration based on cast time needs to be revisited to solve the issue, but could cause other effects as well and not sure if it can be specified mechanics for just one power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albion Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 6 hours ago, DREAMERS said: bravo to you for the new earth powers however i am a little disappointed not to see any earth support line i would have hoped that you would create a line that goes with as an affinity crystal where the player could create crystals with it different effects but which can be broken by the enemies finally good me who like playing with support power I am disappointed That is an extremely very specific personal preference to be disappointed at not being included... did you even proposed such thing on the proper venues, and it gained enough support to get on design track?, then it would be logical to be disappointed at it not being included on the release, but if it's just out of the blue it would be based on nothing but your own idea of what should be added to the game? Σαυτὸν ἀρίθμησον πρότερον καὶ γνῶθι σεαυτόν, καὶ τότ᾽ ἀριθμήσεις γαῖαν ἀπειρεσίην. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavicle Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I would also very much like to see a rock or Crystal buff set. But I’m not surprised that we haven’t seen it yet. 1 Wavicle's Guide To What Really Matters: What Needs To Be Done On Every Toon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindDemon21 Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Yes Earth Support with rock shields, pbaoe earths embrace, A location slow/debuff lava field! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwdillon2 Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 (edited) The original version of Lord Recluse's Future of Freedom strike force can now be found in Ouroboros. Still wont be as tough, We didn't have tanks and empaths buffs back then on villain side ... Just insp, Thermal and warberg nukes lol having to tank states and baller as a stone brute with purps.. the devs really hated us villains then Edited December 9, 2021 by rwdillon2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VULCAN Posted December 11, 2021 Share Posted December 11, 2021 WOOOW , such a wonderful job !!! Congratulations to all the heroes who have been working on this release ! Thanks a lot guys for all these presents. Love them all, you did great and it is a real christmas for all of us :) A little suggestion concerning costume parts as you worked on it as well : "Thunder horns" are not available in the Head>HAT section whereas ALL the other typs of horns are available there. Should be cool to import those horns in the list for next time :) #letter_to_santa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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