Thoughts on the Sentinel (feedback/theorycrafting ahoy)

[Glacier Peak]

Just now, Zepp said:

Before trying to decide how to "fix" Sentinels, I think it is important to ask, "What should a Sentinel be?"

This brings us to the peculiar design of Sentinels...

Sentinels as Tank Mage (last line of defense to protect squishies):

• Lack taunt
• Range is lower, meaning that if they are "in position" they are out of range for most targets.
• Limited AoE cap makes hoard breakthroughs less containable as they can not generate sufficient threat.
• Lower armor numbers make this position less tenable.

Sentinels as off-tank:

• Lacks support to help tank maintain aggro
• Lacks taunt
• Low armor values

Sentinels as Snipers (ranged Stalkers):

• Lack Snipe
• Lack range
• Lack spike damage

Sentinels as Scouts:

• No Stealth
• No +Perception
• No default mechanism to distribute intel outside of chat

 

So, basically, it is difficult to see what role the developers intended for this class. They are fun to play, and pretty good solo. However, they do not really improve team composition.

These are really good points from an archetype perspective and it makes sense from an Issue 1 legacy standpoint, but looking at the cross-archetype powersets and the availability of IO sets, procs, and Incarnates, it starts to become less driven by those things you've pointed out. There are varying degrees of success in each AT filling each other's roles and none do so as well as the specific AT - but it's less relevant now than in years past. That's just the state of the game. 

[Eldyem]

56 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

These are really good points from an archetype perspective and it makes sense from an Issue 1 legacy standpoint, but looking at the cross-archetype powersets and the availability of IO sets, procs, and Incarnates, it starts to become less driven by those things you've pointed out. There are varying degrees of success in each AT filling each other's roles and none do so as well as the specific AT - but it's less relevant now than in years past. That's just the state of the game. 

But that doesn't really address why Sentinels seem to be coming up short on every metric. If everyone can step on everyone else's toes, why does it feel like Sents still aren't managing to quite cut it?

[aethereal]

8 minutes ago, Eldyem said:

But that doesn't really address why Sentinels seem to be coming up short on every metric. If everyone can step on everyone else's toes, why does it feel like Sents still aren't managing to quite cut it?

Because their damage is too low.

[Wavicle]

I have had one experience on a team in HC where Sentinels really shone.

 

It was a 4 person team running SBB.

I was on a Sentinel, there was a second Sentinel, and there was a Scrapper and a Spider.

 

Basically, the other Sentinel and I were clearly paying pretty close attention to what each other was doing, because throughout the AV fights when my Opportunity debuff dropped the other Sentinel almost immediately put theirs up, and vice versa. As a result, there was basically an Opportunity debuff up at almost all times.

I'm in no way trying to suggest that therefore Sentinels are fine, just that in this one case, a small team with limited support, Opportunity seemed to pull its weight.

 

I still think just raising the damage is all that's really needed.

[Wobegone]

1 hour ago, Zepp said:

Before trying to decide how to "fix" Sentinels, I think it is important to ask, "What should a Sentinel be?"

 

 

We have a few clues for what the original designers thought:

-The name itself, Sentinel.  Of course, this could mean the literal defination of Sentinal, or it could be from Mass Effect's version of a Sentinel, or another I can't think of.

-Ranged damage and sturdy defense/resist/mez protection.  

-Sentinel Ancillary pools.  They're the only class that has heals available in this catagory (Fire and Electric Mastery).  They all have a melee attack, a ranged hold, and a PBAoE attack, although Electric Mastery inexplicably has a PBAoE damage aura.  Dark, Fire, Electric, and Ice all have ranged immobilize.  Ninja has a ranged AoE with tiny damage (with debuffs) instead and Psionic has a ranged AoE sleep.  Finally, those that don't have heals have either toggle or PBAoE debuffs or a PBAoE buff (Link Minds).   

 

From this I gather Sentinels are a mostly ranged damage dealer with good durability with the option of decent support powers.  

[Gobbledigook]

2 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

From this I gather Sentinels are a mostly ranged damage dealer with good durability with the option of decent support powers.  

Sounds like a Fortunata to me 😛

[Troo]

4 hours ago, Nerva said:

And yet they aren't built to fight from the midline.  They have no aggro generation to intercept anything, and thus can't serve as a defensive line.  They are being out-aggroed by backline characters and their lowered target caps mean that if too many mobs peel off the tank and start heading for the backfield at once, Sentinel can't do much to stop it even if they can catch aggro.

 

I appreciate your considered thoughts here. It does seem that a more defined role could be helpful for the AT.

 

I think I agree with @Zepp. Even if just one section of what is outlined was addressed.

 

IF there is a clear role and strategy sentinels were built for, I'd love to see a write up.

Something similar to:

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Dominator_Strategy

[Wobegone]

47 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Sounds like a Fortunata to me 😛

Kinda?  I mean, the closest would be a Fortunata with Soul Mastery I guess.  Are Fortunatas as durable as Sentinels?  Looking for objective analysis here, I have little experience with Arachnos Widows.
 

Edit: Also Fortunatas have no access to a heal.  Not sure that matters.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Ignatz the Insane

[Wavicle]

Fortunatas are Almost as durable as Sentinels, and with strong CC.

[Wobegone]

13 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Fortunatas are Almost as durable as Sentinels, and with strong CC.

How about Mez protection?

 

[Wavicle]

Just now, Ignatz the Insane said:

How about Mez protection?

 

Yes, Forts have good mez protection.

[Wobegone]

27 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Yes, Forts have good mez protection.

Ok, pardon my ignorance, I'm looking at the Fortunata, Widow, and Night Widow training, and don't see mez protection.  What am I missing?  I see Crab Spiders and Bane Spiders with mez protection.  Is that what you meant?

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, Ignatz the Insane said:

Ok, pardon my ignorance, I'm looking at the Fortunata, Widow, and Night Widow training, and don't see mez protection.  What am I missing?  I see Crab Spiders and Bane Spiders with mez protection.  Is that what you meant?

level 10, Teamwork: Indomitable Will

Edited December 26, 2021 by Wavicle

[Lazarillo]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Sounds like a Fortunata to me 😛

Fortunatas have team support and solid controls as well.

It feels like Sentinels are "trying" to be Fortuantas...they're just not versatile enough to do so.

 

Which actually comes to how I think they're supposed to feel "in character" on a team, too.  They're the lead-from-the-rear types, kinda similar to Masterminds, but with teammates for "pets".  The ideas of marking targets and creating "opportunities" feels very much in line with that.  However, this ability to provide support is far too weak to feel meaningful.  Another reason why I think the key to fixing the AT is to approach it from the inherent.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Lazarillo

[aethereal]

It seems super unimportant to me whether Sentinels recapitulate Fortunatas or not.  The Widow AT/Fortunata sub-AT or whatever we want to call it isn't a versatile way to bring to life a wide variety of superhero concepts, it's a narrow lore-tied thing.  Sure, you can ignore the lore part of it and use it for some other psychic concepts besides literally Arachnos Widows, but you can't use it to make Iron Man.

 

If Sentinels have a similar game role to Fortunatas, but also evoke Iron Man or a number of other ranged bricks from the comics with their aesthetics, then cool.

[Wobegone]

7 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

level 10, Indomitable Will

OK!  Thanks, I found it.  Teamwork power training.  Thanks, as I said, I have little experience with Fortunatas.

[Wavicle]

I don't think the comparison is particularly apt anyway. They don't play very much like Forts at all.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Wavicle

[Wobegone]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

I don't think the comparison is particularly apt anyway. They don't play very much like Forts at all.

That's the only reason I was looking up Fortunatas.  

 

1 hour ago, Gobbledegook said:

Sounds like a Fortunata to me 😛

 

[Wobegone]

At this point, all I know is for a normal low difficulty team I'm confident taking one of my favorite characters (my most played Sentinel).  If the team is running high difficulty stuff, I'm gonna pick something else.  That's a problem with the Sentinel, not me or the team.  

[Zepp]

The reason I chose the four playstyles I highlighted was that they are commonly considered as what Sentinel is "supposed to be" as an AT.

 

The set choices suggest Tank Mage or Off-Tank roles (the latter less so). But the AT limits their ability to fill those roles.
The reduction in AoE targets and AoE attacks evoke the role of Sniper. However, the lack of a snipe and low ST damage make this less feasible.

The name evokes a scout. But, again, this role is less useful because they can't actually fulfill this role in a meaningful way.

 

However, the main point of my post was that it is kind of pointless to talk about how to "fix" the AT without having some sort of agreement on what the AT is.

 

So, my question for all y'all is, what is your vision for the AT?

[BurtHutt]

On 12/20/2021 at 11:24 AM, golstat2003 said:

 

This would be interesting too. Just ANYTHING other than the current inherent they have.

 

Another option would be giving the player the ability to PICK an option package. So, we can have all toggle damage type options (this could even get more creative by having attacks do the toggle damage type only and disregard the original power type - so Sent can change all fire attacks to toxic damage. If this is too much then have 50% of that attack do the original damage type and the other 50% do the toggled damage type....it could also EXCLUDE the damage done by procs to make it even more interesting), another toggle to add a % of damage to all attacks, another for negative to hit, or -RES, or -DEF and so on (basically almost all options in-game) and then let the player PICK 6 (Maybe less? Maybe more? Or 6 is just right) of them. The player can toggle 1 option at a time. You can really make some variety happen that way.

 

Of course, keep the OPPORTUNITY mechanic but maybe tweak it a bit.

 

I think since a Sentinel kinda oversees or watches over, a new inherent could be added. Sents have the inherent ability to have better accuracy overall and is an inherent. Say, something like 10%? Also they could have better ability to fend off things like blind and confuse etc.

 

There are some other ideas on this forum as well and maybe adding something else would make this a very interesting toon to play. 

 

This may not make enough of a difference but I really think it would be fun to run with a toon that has so many options.

Edited December 27, 2021 by BurtHutt

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, Wavicle said:

stalkers get instant AS in combat now

 

Not sure when that happened.

I was just playing a stalker a week or two ago and it wasn't going off instantly.

 

Are you talking about using assassin strike while not hidden?

What's the point of running in and attacking if you are a stalker?

 

I like getting hidden on and then going in and doing the assassin strike. Run out, until hidden, and repeat. with maybe some passing swipes at the mob while running away to get hidden on again.

[Aurora_Girl]

3 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

 

Not sure when that happened.

I was just playing a stalker a week or two ago and it wasn't going off instantly.

 

Are you talking about using assassin strike while not hidden?

What's the point of running in and attacking if you are a stalker?

 

I like getting hidden on and then going in and doing the assassin strike. Run out, until hidden, and repeat. with maybe some passing swipes at the mob while running away to get hidden on again.

 

That's not how stalkers work now. Read up on their inherent and the Stalker ATOs. 

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, Nerva said:

If it is, as you say, a matter of 'opinion and not fact' then the opinion is hardly just mine.

 

Opinions are often shared.

It's why vanilla is still a flavor.

 

14 hours ago, Nerva said:

And yet they aren't built to fight from the midline.  They have no aggro generation to intercept anything, and thus can't serve as a defensive line.  They are being out-aggroed by backline characters and their lowered target caps mean that if too many mobs peel off the tank and start heading for the backfield at once, Sentinel can't do much to stop it even if they can catch aggro.

 

You don't need taunt. You just blast them and keep them busy until they fall over. Or knock them back toward the melee characters.

Your views seem to be very narrow.

I guess there are no controllers to lock them down before they can advance past the Sentinel(s)?

 

You're just against Sentinels, and there is nothing going to change your mind unless things change to suit what you want.

 

I'm fine with the Sentinels.

I don't need to discuss this any further.

I've stated my views.

[UltraAlt]

14 hours ago, A Cat said:

Basically, I save the show AS for solo play. Just use your best non-AS initially out of hide (could even be AOE if the situation calls for it, but usually the team has enough AOE that I go for the boss instead) and then attack assassin's focus and fast AS things as needed, with the hidden proc in AS so I can crit as soon as I hit them with AS (this also prevents you from accidentally doing a slow AS which really messes up your rhythm/dps)

 

It seem to be throwing out the baby and keeping the bath water to me.

 

14 hours ago, A Cat said:

I haven't tried the new placate but that may be good to for yet another crit.

 

I use placate all the time to set an assassin strike, but I think it is the long execute you use as you act as though you are hidden to the target.