Can anything solo LRSF/Miss Liberty TF?

[PeregrineFalcon]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

Not sure where this idea comes from that something being overpowered isn’t problematic unless another player is harmed.

Skyrim is a good answer to that question.

 

There are ways, even without mods, to work your way up until you're completely overpowered. It doesn't matter though because it's a single player game. Want to be completely OP? Ok, whatever. No one cares. Because it doesn't affect anyone else.

 

However, if you're on a team and they can't do anything because you're so OP that you keep AoE Nuke/one-shotting every single spawn before they can even get to them then yeah, that's a problem. That's the kind of thing that causes people to log off and unsubscribe.

 

Skyrim has been very very popular for a couple of years now. They're still selling copies of it. So obviously the ability to become OP isn't a problem for it. Perhaps that's where the idea that being OP doesn't matter unless it affects other players. From actual real-world experience.

[arcane]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Skyrim is a good answer to that question.

 

There are ways, even without mods, to work your way up until you're completely overpowered. It doesn't matter though because it's a single player game. Want to be completely OP? Ok, whatever. No one cares. Because it doesn't affect anyone else.

 

However, if you're on a team and they can't do anything because you're so OP that you keep AoE Nuke/one-shotting every single spawn before they can even get to them then yeah, that's a problem. That's the kind of thing that causes people to log off and unsubscribe.

 

Skyrim has been very very popular for a couple of years now. They're still selling copies of it. So obviously the ability to become OP isn't a problem for it. Perhaps that's where the idea that being OP doesn't matter unless it affects other players. From actual real-world experience.

But there are tons of clear examples in CoH and MMO history where overpoweredness was the sole justification for removing exploits. Skimming over the more obvious ones, I’m also remembering that insane snake egg farm a friend once demanded I keep a secret. You know, to say nothing over countless other “nerfs”. (I put that in quotes because I’m starting to dislike the word. Puts an unhelpful stigma on necessary game design strategies).

Edited January 6, 2022 by arcane

[DarknessEternal]

Y'all are free to make your own thread about demanding everyone else play the game the way you want them to play it.

 

This thread is about soloing MLTF/LRSF.

[arcane]

56 minutes ago, DarknessEternal said:

Y'all are free to make your own thread about demanding everyone else play the game the way you want them to play it.

 

This thread is about soloing MLTF/LRSF.

Oh. My mistake.

 

MLTF can’t be done without using exploits seems like the consensus then.

 

LRSF? Voltak can do it right?

Edited January 6, 2022 by arcane

[Songseven]

On 1/3/2022 at 9:57 AM, DarknessEternal said:

Anything capable of soloing the content to get them?

 

yes, Elm has linked you proof,

 

here's another couple

 

 

 

 

[Elmyder]

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

Oh. My mistake.

 

MLTF can’t be done without using exploits seems like the consensus then.

 

LRSF? Voltak can do it right?

 

No, and there is no need for consensus. Both have been done many times without "exploits". I personally soloed each major endgame task force with my ill/rad using no inspirations years ago. MLTF and LRSF both took over two hours. I also believe a scrapper with normal inspiration use would be able to make it through both relatively quickly and smoothly. Probably been done a few times but I don't have references. 

 

Edit: there is a reference directly above this post, turns out. Thank you @Songseven :)

Edited January 7, 2022 by Elmyder

[BlackHearted]

I Solo'd it on a SS/regen brute and a few blasters .. AV fights are a pita solo but plenty doable with some insp and temp power usage.  Also for peeps saying insp are exploits.. it's literally in the tutorial.


 

Edited January 7, 2022 by BlackHearted

[Mezmera]

2 minutes ago, BlackHearted said:

I Solo'd it on a SS/regen brute and a few blasters .. AV fights are a pita solo but plenty doable with some insp and temp power usage.  Also for peeps saying insp are exploits.. it's literally in the tutorial.


 

 

Not so sure people are as concerned about inspiration usage in of itself.  If you achieve something with the inspiration tray at its max using just what is in there good on you.  But the tutorial doesn't mention you can abuse the system by having an infinite amount of inspirations available at your disposal through emails.  Even the villain tutorial doesn't mention this and they would seem to be the craftier ones to point this out.   

 

I do think it's a little cheap but hey if you got the time to want to do all of that cool for you.  I'm on the fence about email inspirations, I don't feel they should change things retroactively but I do like the limitation for future content i.e. Relentless Aeon.  

[BlackHearted]

50 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

 

Not so sure people are as concerned about inspiration usage in of itself.  If you achieve something with the inspiration tray at its max using just what is in there good on you.  But the tutorial doesn't mention you can abuse the system by having an infinite amount of inspirations available at your disposal through emails.  Even the villain tutorial doesn't mention this and they would seem to be the craftier ones to point this out.   

 

I do think it's a little cheap but hey if you got the time to want to do all of that cool for you.  I'm on the fence about email inspirations, I don't feel they should change things retroactively but I do like the limitation for future content i.e. Relentless Aeon.  

That sounds like the complaints of people who've never actually attempted to do it and are thinking it's much less work than it actually is to properly chain insp... it takes a pita lvl of set up to have them in proper order in your e-mail and then it's quite a bit of additional clicking to claim/use them to stay at capped stats for longer harder fights..  I've done it before for specific goals... it's not some mindless easy way to do TFs.  Also there's fairly little difference aside from the time involved if you stop and restock insp between missions  or re-stocked 20 e-mail slots like we originally had.... complaining about a QoL improvement as an exploit is just silly.

 

[Redletter]

9 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Skyrim is a good answer to that question.

 

There are ways, even without mods, to work your way up until you're completely overpowered. It doesn't matter though because it's a single player game. Want to be completely OP? Ok, whatever. No one cares. Because it doesn't affect anyone else.

 

However, if you're on a team and they can't do anything because you're so OP that you keep AoE Nuke/one-shotting every single spawn before they can even get to them then yeah, that's a problem. That's the kind of thing that causes people to log off and unsubscribe.

 

Skyrim has been very very popular for a couple of years now. They're still selling copies of it. So obviously the ability to become OP isn't a problem for it. Perhaps that's where the idea that being OP doesn't matter unless it affects other players. From actual real-world experience.

While I generally agree with the majority of this statement, I will say that people dont complain about OPness (hehe p-ness) when it directly benefits them. AE farms, raids, and other content (especially when SPEED is more a factor) the raw mechanical superiority is often highly appreciated. I know if something like, a Spine/Fire brute could clear SBB in under 5 minutes Im not certain how many people would cry about not getting to smack a rikti monkey. Likewise, there are absolutely people who see the mechanical exploits of Skyrim and voice complaints about seeing a naked hairy nord with a spoon deal 186654925936 damage with said eating utensil.

 

I think it's definitely a space where people dont want to feel like theyre wasting their time with their effort, more than anything. Like, I dont feel people look at like, an Energy/Energy Stalker 3 shot a boss that's supposed to take 6 people to beat and go "man, screw THAT guy! En/EN is SO op, what a loser!" they go "Oh. Well. That was easy. What is MY character lacking in comparison? Is it really just his numbers are THAT big arbitrarily?" because that's the main family of arguments you see about the differences between classes too.

 

Like. People complain that the brute can be JUST as tanky as the tanker due to how their caps work? I dont have an opinion on that specific argument but people make it NOT because theyre like "youre ruining my experience by being my mechanical superior" theyre saying "There should be a larger divide between our fields of expertise". Like, you DONT see people going like "Man Scappers are fucking DISGUSTING compared to Tankers, theyre damage is just so high! Where do they get off, huh? Having MORE damage than me! How dare." Lisewise with Corruptors and Defenders. I feel it's more about wanting to not see someone else doing YOUR job BETTER than you, which is why beneficial mechanical superiority is rarely ever brought up (plant controllers, nature and/or sonic defenders, super reflexes tankers, etc).

[Redletter]

4 hours ago, BlackHearted said:

That sounds like the complaints of people who've never actually attempted to do it and are thinking it's much less work than it actually is to properly chain insp... it takes a pita lvl of set up to have them in proper order in your e-mail and then it's quite a bit of additional clicking to claim/use them to stay at capped stats for longer harder fights..  I've done it before for specific goals... it's not some mindless easy way to do TFs.  Also there's fairly little difference aside from the time involved if you stop and restock insp between missions  or re-stocked 20 e-mail slots like we originally had.... complaining about a QoL improvement as an exploit is just silly.

 

I agree, but this also sounds really entitled, i assume intentionally so because that's really funny and I can't imagine this argument would be made genuinely.

 

Like. I agree that people shouldnt be complaining over something as trivial as using the email system to send yourself insps so you can undertake challenges that, ultimately, has no effect on the way you personally play or enjoy content. But to deride them as people who don't know the "struggle" of having to click and claim your win condition is just as silly as complaining about email insps, because you click and claim your win condition. 

 

As far as the SOURCE of this topic is concerned, which is to say, "Should we allow this sort of strategy to be employed in SPEED RUNS" which is a competitive setting, I also think it's kinda wack to cry since we can quite simply have a "no inspirations" category. Which I think is what a lot of people who MAKE the arguement of "oh this is cheesy" forget.

 

Ultimately, I say this game is big enough that it can be played however we please, and these discussions should remain in the realm of "matters of opinion".

[Redletter]

13 hours ago, arcane said:

Not sure where this idea comes from that something being overpowered isn’t problematic unless another player is harmed. That’s just another shade of the “Don’t like it? Opt out” talking point that is completely detached from how video games are designed.

 

Balance is pursued in game design because it’s a component of good game design. Not because someone on your team might have hurt feelings.

 

What youre taking issue with is a strategy employed by players. The META game. The person at the keyboard who says "the game doesnt stop me from doing this, so im going to do it" and then falsely attributing their results as a product of game imbalance. You have no problems with Inspirations, or email allowing the transference of items, you have a problem with a player saying "ill just keep like, 20 of these super inspiration in here for my solo MLTF run" and then saying, because of these strategies, a mechanic isnt balanced. THAT is a very, very slippery slope I dont think is at all good to entertain. WHERE do we draw the line on "nerfs" on what ISNT a "fault" with the game, but the player? Do you think this feature should be removed for the people who use their email as storage for EoEs? How about people who run, jump around, or use as many obnoxious VFX as they can in PvP? Seems pretty unsportsmanly to me... better just remove all VFX, and root players when they get into pvp, yeah?

 

TL;DR - Dont hate the game - hate the player, playa. 

[Glacier Peak]

 @DarknessEternal

 

👎

[Veracor]

So, I would just like point out a few things:

 

(1) Soloing a task force, no matter how many inspirations you email to yourself, is never going to be faster than doing it with a team.  Soloing a task force has no inflationary impact on the rewards offered, and, if anything, serves as an influence and thread sink for people who have lots of disposable wealth.  Soloing task forces like this has no negative impact on other players.

 

(2) Chaining inspirations from email is an additional layer of "menu management" during combat for a speedrunner to handle, increasing the skill ceiling of the game whether it is being done solo or team, as well as positional awareness when dealing with team inspirations.  This allows more interest and complexity in the run's execution, even if it does narrow the number of viable ATs/powersets.

 

(3) Speedrunners and tool-assisted speedrunners do very much adhere to "if the game allows it, it must be accounted for."  This is not an attempt to minmax or metagame, but rather to remove discretion and bias from the environment.  When it comes to rules there must be as little "gray area" as possible, so that the playing ground is as even as possible.  What classifies an exploit and what doesn't is decided by a community of vested runners at a later date, based on how it positively or negatively it has been impacting speedruns of the game.

 

(4) Speedrunners have already done inspiration-less speedruns, as well as email-less speedruns.  They're somewhat interesting in routing and math, but very boring in practice.  A "no inspirations" category on Homecoming speedruns would not see decent activity or viewership.  ASF Relentless could be an exception to this purely because of its design.

 

Anyways, that's all I wanted to say.  Carry on.

[Erratic1]

I commonly say to my friends when they bring up someone doing something incredibly odd, "Eight billion"--meaning there are that many humans on the planet and someone, somewhere, will have thought of doing whatever weird, nonsensical thing you can imagine. Even so I am actually surprised that someone is so bored and has so little to do with their time that they go through a thread they started and give every post a thumb's down.

 

 

 

 

 

[seebs]

On 1/2/2022 at 4:31 PM, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Dude... my solo max-diff no insps/temps ITF run on my sentinel took over three hours. An 80 minute solo MLTF is awesome! 🙂

 

Side note: update your sig line from time to time. I'd like to watch what happens when you ding 100000 vet lvls.

 

You've given me a supergroup idea: "VeraCorps", a supergroup where the admission requirement is at least one vet level. The goal is to try to have the entire super group, added together, have as many vet levels as Veracor.

[subbacultchas]

36 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

 @DarknessEternal

 

👎

Like seriously, what is this about? Whole chain of them going way back in the thread all of sudden.

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, seebs said:

You've given me a supergroup idea: "VeraCorps", a supergroup where the admission requirement is at least one vet level. The goal is to try to have the entire super group, added together, have as many vet levels as Veracor.

 

LOL. Yea, good luck with that. You've got some serious catchin up to do.

[Redletter]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

LOL. Yea, good luck with that. You've got some serious catchin up to do.

All it will take is a hundred people with veteran 100! Totally doable. Doubly possible if Veracor joins.

[Redletter]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:31 PM, DarknessEternal said:

Why would you want to take away people's fun? 

 

The spirit of CoH is for players to feel powerful.  Remember, this was the game designed for 3 minions to be a challenge.  Then, when players started soloing half a dozen bosses, the devs just shrugged and said ok.

Wait... youre the one that started this tangent.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Redletter
It's all a Nemesis plot

[seebs]

I was going to have a no inspirations speed run but then I realized I got the idea from somewhere and that meant I'd already failed.

[Mezmera]

6 hours ago, BlackHearted said:

That sounds like the complaints of people who've never actually attempted to do it and are thinking it's much less work than it actually is to properly chain insp... it takes a pita lvl of set up to have them in proper order in your e-mail and then it's quite a bit of additional clicking to claim/use them to stay at capped stats for longer harder fights..  I've done it before for specific goals... it's not some mindless easy way to do TFs.  Also there's fairly little difference aside from the time involved if you stop and restock insp between missions  or re-stocked 20 e-mail slots like we originally had.... complaining about a QoL improvement as an exploit is just silly.

 

 

My main is a Mind/Nrg dom.  We know perma doms can solo the LRSF easy thanks to stealth/ST confuse where I won't even need inspirations.  Just sit there and spam confuse until there's one target left, seems pretty mindless to me.  There's nothing to prove doing this other than you have the extra free time and choose this for your activity for the day.  

 

Having an unending supply of inspirations makes it so you don't have to leave the map to grab more in which time the target you need all of this for has likely regenerated.  There's nothing particularly difficult about it other than knowing how to email yourself stuff and in an order that makes sense to you.  

 

No complaints though just pointing out that it's just pretty cheap tactics to get an unending supply of buffs that even a team of 8 wouldn't all be able to provide.  Which it seems like the devs agree with hence the Relentless settings for their future content.  

Edited January 7, 2022 by Mezmera

[Redletter]

4 hours ago, Mezmera said:

No complaints though just pointing out that it's just pretty cheap tactics to get an unending supply of buffs that even a team of 8 wouldn't all be able to provide.  Which it seems like the devs agree with hence the Relentless settings for their future content.  

Relentless is, and will be according to the devs, an optional setting. Using it as any measure of agreement is irresponsibly presumptuous - doubly so when it seems to be made more as a response for people wanting to make difficulty more customizable for themselves, as opposed to any sort of measure to curtail, police, or even discourage what you describe as cheap tactics.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Redletter said:

Relentless is, and will be according to the devs, an optional setting. Using it as any measure of agreement is irresponsibly presumptuous - doubly so when it seems to be made more as a response for people wanting to make difficulty more customizable for themselves, as opposed to any sort of measure to curtail, police, or even discourage what you describe as cheap tactics.

 

See? No reason at all not to add a temp power that defeats all enemies on a map. It's just a matter of time management.

[arcane]

Finding all the references to how much work it is to chain insps pretty funny.

 

Just because the GameShark required some extra steps didn’t mean they weren’t cheat codes 😉

 

Who are you trying to convince anyway?