Combo Mechanics Thread

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Keep in mind, if you're looking to do damage per cycle analysis, you need to factor in animation time as well. So 2.4s + 2.64s = Spin once every 5.04s. Savage Leap would be 10s + 1.32s, so once every 11.32s. So the ratios would not be the same with increased recharge.

I knew Bill was gypping me I just wasn’t smart enough to say why!

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

You can certainly play this game like that but then you're not being an efficient murderer of 1s and 0s if you do.

<shrug>  I also do not have a single damage proc in any attack on any character at all.

 

Of the 50 some characters that I have, only two have any set IOs at all. My main, a tank, and a Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster. And the Blaster's only at 38% ranged defense.

 

Yep. I'm not fast, I'm not optimal and I'm not efficient. I do that at work. When I play CoH I'm drinking a beer and/or coffee and just having fun. I barely plan out builds and I chit-chat with my friends on discord about pretty much everything while running around lighting skulls on fire.

 

I really don't want this game to become some kind of Darksouls Super Hero game where I have to constantly play wack-a-mole with all of my various power sets and pools. Rings constantly popping up while I have to play my keyboard like Chopin on crack in a desperate attempt to stay alive because the devs added combos to all of the power sets and listened to all of the "game too easy, bruh" threads.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Keep in mind, if you're looking to do damage per cycle analysis, you need to factor in animation time as well. So 2.4s + 2.64s = Spin once every 5.04s. Savage Leap would be 10s + 1.32s, so once every 11.32s. So the ratios would not be the same with increased recharge.

 

Truth.

 

Total chain time of FU, Spin, SW is 4.884 and the chain time for Leap, RF, Shred is 6.072. Hmmm.

[A Cat]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

On my db/nrg scrap, I don't even see the orange circles because I only use BF, SS, AS for ST and BF, SS, TE for AoE.

 

I would like to know why DB's combos no longer need to hit to function but StJ's system still requires a hit to build.

 

My hatred of multiple animations for a single attack is long stated. It's why I won't play TW. I still play NrgMelee because even with the long and short ET animations in play, it's so ridiculously over the top running Long-ET, TF, Short-ET, Moonbeam/Gloom, BS, repeat that I can't NOT play it.

 

Looking at the other sets in question... I either don't play them at all or as with DB, I just ignore the combos.

 

I'm probably just old and stuck in my ways. Get off my lawn.

It doesn't bother me at all with EM either. On teams I have almost enough recharge to ignore the long ET. There's technically 0.something seconds before TF recharges, but whatever. Solo, I often energy punch to fill in the gap since most enemies are either dead or at a tiny sliver of health at that point.  

 

 

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

For clarity, only Scrappers get the bonus crit chance (Stalkers get nothing special) 

 

Stalkers get to experience an entire powerset with no AoE. 

 

1 hour ago, SuggestorK said:

Well while dual blades as example is not bad.. it suffers if u have enemies that u can miss and thus miss out the whole mechanic cause until the power is recharged u have to start again from beginning.

 

Titan Weapons... it just way to slow for 1st Attack, if they replace the slow with reduced damage it would be way less clunky..., also again if u miss a hit.. u may lose momentum... its hairsplitting.

They changed it so even missed attacks count towards your combo for DB. For TW, momentum is just on a timer, and you get it even if you miss. It's 5 seconds for any momentum building attack and 10 seconds for using build up. 

 

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

I like the character, but I don't like trying to use Savage Melee because I have to watch the combo stacks and use them at 4 so I'm not arbitrarily penalized (using at 5 stacks results in loss of the ability to gain new stacks for a short period). 

Personally, I don't like the lockout mechanics in general. On my Psi/ stalker, I just ignore insight period. But even then, all it does it reduce the consistency of damage. I'd rather they just get rid of the mechanic entirely and just give a small boost to damage overall instead. Insight is just unfun, random, and almost pointless. 

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

<shrug>  I also do not have a single damage proc in any attack on any character at all.

 

Of the 50 some characters that I have, only two have any set IOs at all. My main, a tank, and a Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster. And the Blaster's only at 38% ranged defense.

 

Yep. I'm not fast, I'm not optimal and I'm not efficient. I do that at work. When I play CoH I'm drinking a beer and/or coffee and just having fun. I barely plan out builds and I chit-chat with my friends on discord about pretty much everything while running around lighting skulls on fire.

 

I really don't want this game to become some kind of Darksouls Super Hero game where I have to constantly play wack-a-mole with all of my various power sets and pools. Rings constantly popping up while I have to play my keyboard like Chopin on crack in a desperate attempt to stay alive because the devs added combos to all of the power sets and listened to all of the "game too easy, bruh" threads.

I’m not good with combo mechanics either, and, in spite of having every Blaster set IO’d, none of my Blasters can match yours’ ranged defense. Mine tends to land around 20-25%.
 

But I leverage the game’s fast pace to jump in and out of the fray, and the game’s reactive play to pop insps when in danger. So that must be the difference. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

When I play CoH I'm drinking a beer and/or coffee and just having fun.

 

Oh yea? Well since covid lockdown hit I was drinking beer and coffee while playing CoH AND working!

 

Don't tell anybody that.

 

I hear you on the rest. I completely understand not thinking during off-time in the same way as on-time. I'm just not capable of changing modes. Probably why I burnt out on IT, quit the highest paying gig I've ever had, sold my house and moved from TX to MA.

[A Cat]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

Apples and oranges. No comparison to Claws one way or another. Sure it will never have Claws S/T power, but you’ll never have proc bomb Savage Leap levels of AoE damage. Shrug.

Does Savage Leap work differently than Lightning Rod? IIRC LR suffers from a bad proc rate due to being a pseudo pet or something (I don't fully understand TBH). I do like tele nukes. They are so flashy. 

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Well since covid lockdown hit I was drinking beer and coffee while playing CoH AND working!

Spirit animal

[Bopper]

18 minutes ago, A Cat said:

Does Savage Leap work differently than Lightning Rod? IIRC LR suffers from a bad proc rate due to being a pseudo pet or something (I don't fully understand TBH). I do like tele nukes. They are so flashy. 

It does work differently. The AoE from Savage Leap is performed by an "Execute Power" effect. The power that gets executed is 40s base recharge and 0s cast time with a radius of 20 feet. It will use the AoE PPM formula for its calculations. However, I have not played with this power before and looking at CoD I do not see the executed power accepting set IOs, so I am not sure if it accepts the procs from the main power or not. I would think it should, but it's worth testing that to make sure.

 

One more thing to note...the teleport to target will act as a ST attack and will use ST PPM formula for its proc calculations. That is 40s base recharge, 1.167s cast time, an no AoE. However, double procing will not happen, so if you hit the main target with procs using the ST PPM formula, it will not get proc'd again by the executed AoE power. However, I think Lightning Rod, because it's a summoned pet, could proc twice, scratch that, Lightning Rod is a Location AoE and doesn't use a target for its teleport. 

 

EDIT: I hopped on Beta where I had a Savage Assault Dominator that I used to test Feral Charge previously. It's set up similarly to Savage Leap and the Procs do work in its AoE. So rest assured Savage Leap's procs should be working in its AoE as well.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Bopper

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Bopper said:

It will use the AoE PPM formula for its calculations.

 

Funny bit there pointed out this morning by @BillyMailman

 

Due to the way tanks received their AoE buffs, they still maintain the better proc chance of smaller AoEs while having more of a chance of hitting more targets and having higher max targets hit.

 

Tanks weren't overbuffed my ass.

[MTeague]

I vehemently dislike Combo systems, and have NEVER created a Dual Blades character for that reason. 

 

In particular, my objections are: 

• sets become balanced around assumed use of the Combos
• That would mean I would have to take every power involved in a Combo to be most effective. Maybe I don't LIKE every power, or completely loathe the animations on a few of them.  "Just don't take the powers" is fine, so long as balance of the set doesn't assume use of the combos. But we both know it will. 
• I prefer making my own combos by experimenting for myself what powers can synergize with what, not having the game invent an arbitrary synergy because I mashed button X and then Y and then Z. 

I would not want a combo system proliferated willy nilly across powersets. 

Granted, I do not have veto power here. It may happen regardless. 

But I would loathe it greatly.

 

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Funny bit there pointed out this morning by @BillyMailman

 

Due to the way tanks received their AoE buffs, they still maintain the better proc chance of smaller AoEs while having more of a chance of hitting more targets and having higher max targets hit.

 

Tanks weren't overbuffed my ass.

Correct, this has been known for awhile. It's also been known that increasing the range/radius in cone attacks does not increase its Area Factor calculations for procs. The proc formula uses the base radius/arc only.

[arcane]

21 minutes ago, A Cat said:

Does Savage Leap work differently than Lightning Rod? IIRC LR suffers from a bad proc rate due to being a pseudo pet or something (I don't fully understand TBH). I do like tele nukes. They are so flashy. 

Yes. Savage Leap procs well and Lightning Rod does not.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Bopper said:

Correct, this has been known for awhile. It's also been known that increasing the range/radius in cone attacks does not increase its Area Factor calculations for procs. The proc formula uses the base radius/arc only.

 

So why ain't it been fixed? 🙂

[Uun]

I like the systems on Water Blast, Seismic Blast, Energy Melee, Staff Fighting, Gravity, Time/Temporal and Oil Slick Arrow. 

Beam Rifle needs a tweak to make it easier to keep track of which targets have the Disintegration effect, but I think the bonuses are good.

I don't like the system on Radiation Melee. It's hard to see who is Contaminated, the extra damage is very small and it's stupid that your heal doesn't work if the target isn't Contaminated. 

I don't really consider Eagle's Claw to be a combo and largely ignore whether or not I hit someone within the 3 second window.

I haven't played Savage, Psi Melee, Street Justice, Dual Blades or Titan Weapons.

[Uun]

Double post

Edited February 7, 2022 by Uun

[BillyMailman]

8 minutes ago, Bopper said:

...looking at CoD I do not see the executed power accepting set IOs, so I am not sure if it accepts the procs from the main power or not. I would think it should, but it's worth testing that to make sure.

 

Since Bill tagged me and I read back a bit: I actually know this part 100%. Set slotting has nothing whatsoever to do with procs passing to execute effects, pets, pseudopets, etc. Only the base enhancement type(s) matter. Set pieces are all tagged as a bunch of basic enhancement types as well, which determines what they pass along into. So, because the execute power is tagged to take acc, dam, range, recharge, and end reduction enhancements, any enhancement in the original power which has one of those types, will count as slotted into the execute power. Thus, normal damage SOs will enhance the execute power's damage, and things like the obliteration proc will count as slotted in it, and fire a chance on all its targets.

 

5 minutes ago, Bopper said:

However, double procing will not happen, so if you hit the main target with procs using the ST PPM formula, it will not get proc'd again by the executed AoE power.

 

...wait, what? I'd never heard of that bit. Did I miss some dev post at some point mentioning this?

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, MTeague said:

sets become balanced around assumed use of the Combos

This isn't necessarily true, if anything (from my experience witnessing recent revamps) combos are used as ways to go above and beyond the balance rules. Granted, DB is an old powerset and I can't speak to anything the devs from live used to balance dual blades. But from what I can tell, DB is a perfectly good set when ignoring the combo mechanics.

[A Cat]

11 minutes ago, MTeague said:

I vehemently dislike Combo systems, and have NEVER created a Dual Blades character for that reason. 

 

In particular, my objections are: 

• sets become balanced around assumed use of the Combos
• That would mean I would have to take every power involved in a Combo to be most effective. Maybe I don't LIKE every power, or completely loathe the animations on a few of them.  "Just don't take the powers" is fine, so long as balance of the set doesn't assume use of the combos. But we both know it will. 
• I prefer making my own combos by experimenting for myself what powers can synergize with what, not having the game invent an arbitrary synergy because I mashed button X and then Y and then Z. 

I would not want a combo system proliferated willy nilly across powersets. 

Granted, I do not have veto power here. It may happen regardless. 

But I would loathe it greatly.

 

DB is good even without the combo mechanics. AFAIK, some of the the best DPS chains across all the AT's ignore the combos entirely. Just get a bunch of recharge in the build and shred. 

[Bopper]

6 minutes ago, BillyMailman said:

 

Since Bill tagged me and I read back a bit: I actually know this part 100%. Set slotting has nothing whatsoever to do with procs passing to execute effects, pets, pseudopets, etc. Only the base enhancement type(s) matter. Set pieces are all tagged as a bunch of basic enhancement types as well, which determines what they pass along into. So, because the execute power is tagged to take acc, dam, range, recharge, and end reduction enhancements, any enhancement in the original power which has one of those types, will count as slotted into the execute power. Thus, normal damage SOs will enhance the execute power's damage, and things like the obliteration proc will count as slotted in it, and fire a chance on all its targets.

 

 

...wait, what? I'd never heard of that bit. Did I miss some dev post at some point mentioning this?

 

To your first paragraph, that is also how I understood it. However, I was looking back at how Touch of Fear is set up and saw its execute powers taking Set IOs, so I started to doubt myself.

 

To your second paragraph, I don't recall where I got the info (forum post, discord message, private message, etc), but basically what I was told was there is proc logic that prevents a proc from checking on the same target more than once when execute power is used. A dev can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but that's what I think I recall and based on recent (although not extensive) testing, that statement seems to hold up. I don't recall ever seeing a double proc on the main target when I tested Feral Charge. I should probably test savage leap since it has a much higher base recharge and would not be hard to expect double procs if it could happen.

[BillyMailman]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

To your second paragraph, I don't recall where I got the info (forum post, discord message, private message, etc), but basically what I was told was there is proc logic that prevents a proc from checking on the same target more than once when execute power is used. A dev can correct me if I'm wrong on that, but that's what I think I recall and based on recent (although not extensive) testing, that statement seems to hold up. I don't recall ever seeing a double proc on the main target when I tested Feral Charge. I should probably test savage leap since it has a much higher base recharge and would not be hard to expect double procs if it could happen.

 

Yeah, now I really wanna see this tested, because I'm wondering whether it means the second execute part can't check procs against targets that the first power checked, or whether it can't check procs against targets that the first power successfully proced. Both would mean no more than one activation, but they'd have different effects on the net actual chance to proc, and would make a proc heavy Savage Leap very different in terms of its effects on the primary target.

[kiramon]

1 minute ago, BillyMailman said:

 

Yeah, now I really wanna see this tested, because I'm wondering whether it means the second execute part can't check procs against targets that the first power checked, or whether it can't check procs against targets that the first power successfully proced. Both would mean no more than one activation, but they'd have different effects on the net actual chance to proc, and would make a proc heavy Savage Leap very different in terms of its effects on the primary target.

I always just guessed that it was a Single Target attack and a Targeted AoE that affects everything around the target, but not the target itself disallowing procs from the aoe to stack with the single target. But that's literally just what I would guess.

[BillyMailman]

1 minute ago, kiramon said:

I always just guessed that it was a Single Target attack and a Targeted AoE that affects everything around the target, but not the target itself disallowing procs from the aoe to stack with the single target. But that's literally just what I would guess.

Nope, the ST power (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.savage_melee.savage_leap&at=scrapper) does no damage, and just teleports and handles the stacks of Blood Frenzy you're gaining. The AoE power (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee_aux.savage_melee.savage_leap_aoe&at=scrapper) is the only one doing damage.

 

But, the ST power still takes procs, and targets, affects, and even autohits enemies. So, the ST power can trigger procs, even though it doesn't do any damage. So something has to stop the primary target from being double-procced.

[PeregrineFalcon]

33 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

So why ain't it been fixed? 🙂

Cause there's nothing to fix. Tanks are supposed to be awesome! 😁

[kiramon]

3 minutes ago, BillyMailman said:

Nope, the ST power (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee.savage_melee.savage_leap&at=scrapper) does no damage, and just teleports and handles the stacks of Blood Frenzy you're gaining. The AoE power (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=scrapper_melee_aux.savage_melee.savage_leap_aoe&at=scrapper) is the only one doing damage.

 

But, the ST power still takes procs, and targets, affects, and even autohits enemies. So, the ST power can trigger procs, even though it doesn't do any damage. So something has to stop the primary target from being double-procced.

I knew that at one point, just had it mixed up and made it make sense to not overlap. Lol xD thx