Attack chains and choosing your attacks

[TCRSavage]

From a theory crafting perspective, how many attacks does a hero really need?  I've been playing around with a few ATs and looking at the numbers in mids - and even after skipping 2 of 3 early attacks in any of the melee sets I end up with 5 to 7 total attacks, which seems bonkers when reading that other folks are cycling just 3-4 in a chain.  As a blaster, you can end up with 12 different attacks and I know that's overkill.

 

Help me out - when and how are you choosing your attacks, and which powers are just set mules?  How do you choose your mules?  My goals are freedom in builds to take powers that are just fun, and builds are always tight with chasing soft caps.

 

 

[KaizenSoze]

That depends a lot on the speed of the attacks. Single target attacks like Widow claws or other ATs are very quick recharging.

 

So, I end up with 3-4 single target attacks in rotation. Then check my AOEs if needed.

 

Some attacks always need to be in rotation as soon as they recharge, like Follow up.

[arcane]

To be a single target monster that slays AV’s (not including whatever Controllers and Masterminds do), I find you typically need 4 single target attacks to make a complete no-pauses attack chain with your build’s most powerful moves. A few things could get away with 3, like maybe Claws or Dual Blades Scrappers. Some attacks won’t fit with this thinking. For example, Tanker Char with 6 damage procs is not going to fit reliably into a 4 attack rotation with its 32 second recharge. When I plan out an attack chain, I track each attack’s recharge vs the sum of all other attacks’ arcanatimes. As long as the former is less than the latter for each attack, you’ve got yourself a chain.
 

I try to have 2 AoE attacks no matter what. If the character is not intended to be a single target monster and has less than 3-4 single target attacks, it’s likely intended to be an AoE monster and likely has 4+ AoE attacks in that scenario.

 

Unless you’re solo’ing AV’s (S/T needed) or farming (AoE needed), the TL;DR is play how you want and you’ll do great.

Edited May 25, 2022 by arcane

[Greycat]

"Does it look fun?"

Yes - taken

No - skipped.

 

I don't honestly care about set bonuses, capping, perma-whatever, etc. though. Unneeded and generally annoying.  It's rare that I have any sort of "chain" in mind (the only exception I can think of being "huntsman" builds - WAWG, venom, then AOEs, and I want them handy and cycling.) The closest I come to a "mule" is looking for powers that don't really need slotting and maybe putting them off 'til the mid-30s or later when I'll just want slots in existing powers. (Typically aim/buildup type powers, Nebulous Form, etc.)

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 hours ago, TCRSavage said:

From a theory crafting perspective, how many attacks does a hero really need?

 

As many as it takes to get the job done. Beyond that, if you want to use less attacks and/or take less of them, then you need more recharge. In some cases, a LOT of recharge. You'll want hasten and all 5 LotG +recharge IOs and 5 purple sets and even THEN IT WON'T BE ENOUGH!!!!

 

Or just play. Over time, you'll find yourself shuffling attacks around based on everything you do in game. Once you gotten the feel right and you're just wondering exactly how much recharge you need to get what you want, then check this post I just made:
 

 

[Doomguide2005]

Depends, of course!

 

Depends on AT

Depends on set

Depends on task at hand

Depends on team

Depends on level

 

Usually 4 or 5 on a mature higher level build.

I've never actually calculated out an ideal chain and/or the recharge needed, however.  Sets I play frequently i usually have a fair idea of what is considered 'best' or most optimal for that set but rarely worry overmuch on executing one.  I've only really did it much on my Main, a Claws/SR scrapper, and only really focused on doing so while running solo through various AVs many issues ago on Live.  The rest of the time it's largely more math than I find worth the effort.  Is an attack ready to go when I need one then I've got enough attacks or enough recharge or enough recharge debuff resistance or a good combination of those factors.  There's too many variables in most cases especially on teams where a perfect attack sequence opportunity rarely happens.  The foes dies, the foes runs or is knocked away, etc., etc..   It's a battle, chaos ensues!  I'm on my Earth/Storm and another mob is aggro'd or ambush spawns so an available CC is thrown.  I'm on one of my Emp/Sonics blasting away with the 'preferred' chain and suddenly 2 teammates go deep red or my Claws/SR is eyeballs deep in Cimeroran EBs and bosses and my task for at least the moment is to grab and keep their attention off a couple teammates (not worrying overmuch about killing as keeping aggro).  The examples are endless and it's what happens when theorycrafting meets reality.

[biostem]

5 hours ago, TCRSavage said:

From a theory crafting perspective, how many attacks does a hero really need?

There are many factors to consider, but I can provide an anecdotal one that may shed some light on things:

 

I have a 50 kin/son defender.  My main attacks are basically shriek and shout, (each 6-slotted with the Defender AT sets).  Between the set bonuses and siphon speed, I can pretty much cycle between those 2 attacks nonstop.  I will use howl and siren's song if I need a bit of AoE punch or control, but otherwise it's just those 2 attacks...

[Bill Z Bubba]

12 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I've never actually calculated out an ideal chain and/or the recharge needed, however. 

 

HERESY!!!

 

 

Nah, I get it. Especially on my non-melee characters. It's a nice to have, sure, but on those I spend so much time doing other things that almost none of them get as finally tuned as my melee do.

 

[Doomguide2005]

    

7 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

HERESY!!!

 

 

Nah, I get it. Especially on my non-melee characters. It's a nice to have, sure, but on those I spend so much time doing other things that almost none of them get as finally tuned as my melee do.

 

Hehe Yup

 

Besides we know you and Houtex have figured out the answer is 1.  Just working out if it's Swipe or Brawl

[biostem]

27 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Just working out if it's Swipe or Brawl

Nu-uh!  brawl -> origin power -> shadow maul -> nemesis staff -> undead slaying axe -> rest

Edited May 25, 2022 by biostem

[TCRSavage]

Thanks all, for the replies!  Arcanatime is new to me but useful info.  Generally with melee toons I've been skipping one of the first 2 attacks, and usually whatever cone attack (proton sweep, etc) is there at the next tier.  With my rad/rad scrapper, I have more than enough attacks but never specifically made single target/AoE chains....just kind of spam what's up.

 

If I decide to take a ST attack just to mule something like kinetic combat (4 slots) is that pretty typical for the builders out there?  I like 6 slotting anything and everything I actually use so slots are at a premium.  

 

Now, adding in the build up type powers - if I limit my attack chain to say, 4 ST attacks and go for a couple of the AoE...is it worth 6 slots for gaussian?  Or just get the proc in there and use the slots elsewhere?

[Shred Monkey]

Most of the time I run 4 attacks in a chain.  Usually it's in the format of one of these 3 cycles:

 

A B C D repeat

A B C A B D repeat (this is the most common while leveling up)

A B A C D repeat (this is my most common endgame setup using 3 damage procs each in the B, C, and D attack)

 

This is usually all single target attacks.  I then add in 1 or 2 AoE attacks that I just use situationally... and a nuke if I get one, and of course my Judgement power as well.

 

So to answer your question most of my builds use either 5 or 6 attacks.

 

 

[EmperorSteele]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

Nu-uh!  brawl -> origin power -> shadow maul -> nemesis staff -> undead slaying axe -> rest

 

I'll see that and raise you /e slap -> /e smack -> repeat... but not too fast, or the animations won't play! There's an art to keeping a constant fore and backhand slap-attack chain going!

[Clave Dark 5]

Has my big T9 explosion attack recharged yet?  OMG it has!  Click it you fool, CLICK IT!! 

 

I try and start smart by like clicking a Build Up or something like that, Link Minds, whatever will help my attacks land/protect me, then cut loose with that big AoE or monstrous single target upon my chosen target.  Then I get all frantic mashing buttons and whatnot, sometimes with less consideration than I really should be using (clicking a T9 for that white-con minion with only a fraction of Health left wasn't a great choice huh?).  When it's all over, hopefully I'm still standing and they are not!

 

There are some deviations from this based on the powers, such as those commonish attacks that melee types get that don't do too much damage but offer a boost to Defense, I try and reclick those a fair amount, especially if the fight's tough.

[tidge]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:52 AM, TCRSavage said:

From a theory crafting perspective, how many attacks does a hero really need?  I've been playing around with a few ATs and looking at the numbers in mids - and even after skipping 2 of 3 early attacks in any of the melee sets I end up with 5 to 7 total attacks, which seems bonkers when reading that other folks are cycling just 3-4 in a chain.  As a blaster, you can end up with 12 different attacks and I know that's overkill.

 

Help me out - when and how are you choosing your attacks, and which powers are just set mules?  How do you choose your mules?  My goals are freedom in builds to take powers that are just fun, and builds are always tight with chasing soft caps.

 

I offer no deep insights. In my experience Blasters and Scrappers are the AT I play that end up with "too many attacks". My sense is that this personal situation arises for a few reasons:

• I like playing low-level content, and it just isn't as much fun in a Frostfire (for example) mission with P2W attacks on a DPS AT
• Certain ATs tend to collect certain enhancement set bonuses (Purples, ATO, Winters) almost exclusively from attacks.... and...
• generally, it isn't possible to get more than two %proc and benefit from some of the most useful set bonuses (such as a 5-piece global +Recharge from a Purple)

The last two bullet points are a balancing act for many of my builds: I generally don't want %damage procs in my DPS characters (especially if attacks are fast-cycling) as the %proc rates will be low and the extra damage is usually not worth it (especially for single target attacks) when considering the math of "if the %damage occurs, do I still need to hit that Lt/Boss a second time anyway?"... but I am often satisfied to put something like a %-Resistance proc in an attack, because when that fires, it will generally help both me and teammates.

 

As far as which powers get the set bonuses (I don't think of attacks as being candidates as "mules") and which do not, usually it goes like this for me:

1. The characters with a LOT of attacks (DPS AT), the earliest attacks get set bonuses (usually ATO) because the rapid cycling (from the Recharge pieces) usually doesn't hurt performance
2. For characters with AoE, non-DPS AT will get %damage pieces because those help even out 'clear times'. For DPS characters (scale 1.00+) I prefer to leverage 5-piece sets because faster recharge is better than %damage.
3. For non-DPS characters who have epic pools... often I use the epic attacks to hold set bonuses because an AT like a Controller may not have a convenient place to get a set bonus from an attack. Such characters can get (similar) set bonuses from other types of powers, so this is a case of "mileage varies" Stalkers & Scrappers are a special case, because the Epic pools open up Snipes for them, and those become good spots for a few different enhancement bonuses. I almost always invest multiple slots in a Snipe for a scrapper/stalker. There is a sort of similar math for Tankers (which generally cannot slot ranged attack sets until the epic pools, modulo a few newer pools).