How Can Origin Be Better?

[biostem]

5 hours ago, Herotu said:

I'm sorry. This comment is repeated all over the forums. I mention roleplayers being a problem in the original post and I mean it.

I appreciate that creativity is awesome, but Roleplaying should not be an excuse to make everything featureless and generic. 

But we're not talking about "everything", now are we?  Drop the hyperbole and address the concerns.  We have different powersets and archetypes.  THOSE should be what defines your character, with origin simply being a bit of flavor...

[Jiro Ito]

We could always write our own origin-specific stories in AE...

[Andreah]

I think there's a lot of cool ways to make origin meaningful in game mechanics and design. I like a lot of them, but I don't want any in the game. I might like the game afterwards, but too many people I play with would not.

 

If there are proposals to make more non-mechanical impacts from origin, those I could be on board for. Especially if they're specific and particular, not general.  For example, imagine if every power had different animations flavored for natural, tech, magic, science, etc., and even generic; and you could choose freely between them power by power, costume by costume.

[Golden Azrael]

7 minutes ago, biostem said:

But we're not talking about "everything", now are we?  Drop the hyperbole and address the concerns.  We have different powersets and archetypes.  THOSE should be what defines your character, with origin simply being a bit of flavor...

 

I'd like to see what HC Devs do, if anything, with it.

 

Origins define characters.  Amazing Fantasy 15 comes to mind.

 

It's been under utilised.  How (IF) that ever gets done in a way that pleases the players is another matter.

 

Different power sets and ATs just provide a bit of variation on a theme.

 

A greater level of customisation is an emblem of CoH.  Eg. A nemesis system would be cool.

 

Azrael.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[biostem]

1 minute ago, Golden Azrael said:

I'd like to see what HC Devs do, if anything, with it.

 

Origins define characters.  Amazing Fantasy 15 comes to mind.

 

It's been under utilised.  How (IF) that ever gets done in a way that pleases the players is another matter.

 

Different power sets and ATs just provide a bit of variation on a theme.

 

Azrael.

So if, for instance, a magic blaster did more damage than a technology one, most blasters would end up being of a magic origin.  If a mutant controller had higher mag or longer duration holds, most controllers would end up being mutants.  Unless all the origin did was provide different power FX, with no other mechanical difference, it would skew how players select their origins.  Whether your attacks come from a power suit or through harnessing your chi, there should be no mechanical difference in-game.  The ATs already take care of the difference in function.

[Golden Azrael]

9 minutes ago, biostem said:

So if, for instance, a magic blaster did more damage than a technology one, most blasters would end up being of a magic origin.  If a mutant controller had higher mag or longer duration holds, most controllers would end up being mutants.  Unless all the origin did was provide different power FX, with no other mechanical difference, it would skew how players select their origins.  Whether your attacks come from a power suit or through harnessing your chi, there should be no mechanical difference in-game.  The ATs already take care of the difference in function.

 

I'd be quite happy if Magic Origin characters were better than other Origins at certain things.  What would those things be?

 

I don't think that's much different to how the Brute is 'the chosen one' cuz of Damage.  Players go where the damage is.  Surprise.  That's just an example.  Damage is one potential criteria.  In a Magic Mission it may be that only a Magic alt can open the portal of the hoary portal of grasshopper.  Or that on a given Magic Mission, a magic blaster MAY be more potent than a natural blaster.  I don't think that's much different from blasters and sentinels having different strengths and weaknesses.  A natural origin may stand up to a sock on the chin in melee much better.  Who knows.

 

What perks and whether they balance (good luck with balance...) the game.  That's up to HC.  They've done a decent job so far.  It's their judgement call.  

 

Azrael.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Golden Azrael

[TheZag]

17 minutes ago, Jiro Ito said:

We could always write our own origin-specific stories in AE...

 

That would be cool if there were an option in AE to give a buff or debuff based on origin to help a story.

 

'In this mission natural characters get 30% speed but mutation gets -5% resistance'  or whatever the writer needs 🙂

[Golden Azrael]

3 minutes ago, TheZag said:

 

That would be cool if there were an option in AE to give a buff or debuff based on origin to help a story.

 

'In this mission natural characters get 30% speed but mutation gets -5% resistance'  or whatever the writer needs 🙂

 

Interesting.

 

I think an area where the 'community' of this 'community' led HC Dev' game is in AE.  We already have 'Pick of the Day' of 'Choice Cut' Dev choice AE.  I think the next step would be trying to incorporate that into the actual game something.  

 

The HC Devs could tweak the choice picks.  Ways to incorporate AE 'best arcs?'  Tips.  Radios.  Origin arcs for each Level range 1-10, 11-20 etc.

 

If content dev' is a problem?  Let the community do the heavy lifting on that.

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

26 minutes ago, Andreah said:

I think there's a lot of cool ways to make origin meaningful in game mechanics and design. I like a lot of them, but I don't want any in the game. I might like the game afterwards, but too many people I play with would not.

 

If there are proposals to make more non-mechanical impacts from origin, those I could be on board for. Especially if they're specific and particular, not general.  For example, imagine if every power had different animations flavored for natural, tech, magic, science, etc., and even generic; and you could choose freely between them power by power, costume by costume.

 

I like the 'Origin' travel power or animation idea.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

28 minutes ago, Jiro Ito said:

We could always write our own origin-specific stories in AE...

 

A good point.

 

Azrael.

[Peacemoon]

To be honest, sometimes it’s nice just to have RP options without it actually having a huge impact in game. Especially as you can’t change it. If anything I would go the other way - I’d love for more bio options that could be preset with no effect on the character’s performance.

[catsi563]

19 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

Okay, really rough, off-the-cuff thinking here, but what if we gain 1 origin effect to be applied to any 1 power either every 10 levels for the first 50 levels (so 5 total), or per Terra Volta respec mission unlock (so 3 total)?  Call it the "8th slot" (You'll see why in a moment).  Anything in the 8th slot is slight in power, but increases every time another origin effect unlocks.  So at level 10, I may only have a 0.5% damage or chance, but at 20 it will increase to 1.0% as will the new unlock, at 30 it will be 1.5% and so on.

 

1. Mutation Origin: "Randomization" - Each 8th slot origin effect enhancement is a slight effect of a random beneficial mutation not necessarily related to anything within the power.  So, for example I might be an energy blaster and receive a random 0,5% dark damage ability to put in the 8th slot of my choice, or if put in a defensive ability, it might create a 0.5% chance to create a feedback stun to any enemy that hits you.

2. Magic: "Spell Binding" - slight proc can trigger any one of the active slots on a power (the proc might actually be slightly higher in value since it isn't constant like other origins)

3. Natural: "Discipline" - slight increase specific to one or two slots in a power suggesting the idea that a natural character focuses on honing a skill, like accuracy or endurance.

4. Science: "Discovery" : slight usage of an enhancement not current slotted but potentially usable for a power.  If power has one or two enhancement possibilities (say a defense power) then a slight boost to that enhancement.

5. Technology: "Invent": unlocks a seventh slot, but it only gives a slight amount to whatever enhancement you slot there. 

 

 

As I said, this is a quick thought without deep considerations to the pros and cons.  It's brainstorming.  If it's liked, I'm sure others will sand the rough spots and improve upon it.

I like this idea plus the inclusion of a nemesis system similar to CO crafting ones nemesis would be a great use of COXs expansive character creation system and the follow up arcs if done similar to the Kheldians ever 10 levels story arcs would provide a great mix of stories to play add in a Strikeforce or Taskforce for dealing with ones nemesis and an incarnate arc and  raid and you have end game content thats repeatable, Add in the fun unpredictablitiy of the occasional nemesis minion ambush and life gets spicy =^_^=

Edited June 24, 2022 by catsi563

[Erratic1]

More work than they had time to perform but it would have been nice to have origin specific animations for powers.

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

I'd be quite happy if Magic Origin characters were better than other Origins at certain things.  What would those things be?

 

I don't think that's much different to how the Brute is 'the chosen one' cuz of Damage.  Players go where the damage is.  Surprise.  That's just an example.  Damage is one potential criteria.  In a Magic Mission it may be that only a Magic alt can open the portal of the hoary portal of grasshopper.  Or that on a given Magic Mission, a magic blaster MAY be more potent than a natural blaster.  I don't think that's much different from blasters and sentinels having different strengths and weaknesses.  A natural origin may stand up to a sock on the chin in melee much better.  Who knows.

 

What perks and whether they balance (good luck with balance...) the game.  That's up to HC.  They've done a decent job so far.  It's their judgement call.  

 

Azrael.

No origin should be locked out of any mission.  Brutes are not the end-all-be-all for damage.  HOW a character focuses their abilities is a lot different than where those abilities originate from.  Either way, within the context of CoH, there is absolutely no reason why a character couldn't access extradimensional energies via technology or through some sort of incantation or pact;  To reiterate, HOW you get your powers is irrelevant - it is to what end you focus them that matters, (and there is a plethora of ways one can rationalize any origin possessing any power).  You seem to be of a mind that only magic characters can break a magic barrier, or only tech characters can hack a computer - that is simply not the case if you have a good imagination or are creative...

[Jiro Ito]

What about origin-based buffs that adds a little something based on your origin?  In the form of temporary power buffs granted from above-suggested origin Tips, or even unique IO set proc?  A small amount, up to maybe 2% of additional damage or damage resist based on origin:

 

Magic - dark energy

Mutant - lethal

Science - fire

Technology - energy

Natural - smashing

 

 

[TheOtherTed]

  

3 hours ago, TheZag said:

Natural DOs only come in the previous mentioned Relic for Natural/Magic and as Gadget for Natural/Technology.

 

Thanks for the correction, but, again, DOs are irrelevant in the current game.  Maybe the devs had a similar idea back when DOs were relevant, but it seems that's as far as they went.

 

I'd like to see the spectrum/loop idea carried out further, but, as I said, I don't have any idea how to do that, and I also recognize that it may be a crappy idea to begin with.

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by TheOtherTed
Attribution

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Peacemoon said:

To be honest, sometimes it’s nice just to have RP options without it actually having a huge impact in game. Especially as you can’t change it. If anything I would go the other way - I’d love for more bio options that could be preset with no effect on the character’s performance.

 

Agreed.  Also think it is a very bad idea to do any significant change to something now that you are unable to change on an existing character.  Origin is baked in and unchangeable.  As others have said, any actual mechanical impact and it'd immediately be meta gamed.  Right now origin is mostly just a RP thing and I see nothing wrong with that myself.

[Golden Azrael]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

No origin should be locked out of any mission.  Brutes are not the end-all-be-all for damage.  HOW a character focuses their abilities is a lot different than where those abilities originate from.  Either way, within the context of CoH, there is absolutely no reason why a character couldn't access extradimensional energies via technology or through some sort of incantation or pact;  To reiterate, HOW you get your powers is irrelevant - it is to what end you focus them that matters, (and there is a plethora of ways one can rationalize any origin possessing any power).  You seem to be of a mind that only magic characters can break a magic barrier, or only tech characters can hack a computer - that is simply not the case if you have a good imagination or are creative...

 

'Seem.'

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

2 hours ago, Jiro Ito said:

What about origin-based buffs that adds a little something based on your origin?  In the form of temporary power buffs granted from above-suggested origin Tips, or even unique IO set proc?  A small amount, up to maybe 2% of additional damage or damage resist based on origin:

 

Magic - dark energy

Mutant - lethal

Science - fire

Technology - energy

Natural - smashing

 

 

 

Fine by me. 🙂

 

Azrael.

[Techwright]

Hmm, there's the concept that's used in some of the instanced missions of The Old Republic, which is, depending on your archetype, there's certain shortcuts and beneficial effects that can happen in the instance that only one of your archetype can do.

 

So, here, in theory, add content where mission/task force functions alter how the scenario plays out.    Example:  your team reaches a level where a large fire started by Hellions blocks your path.  To your right is a stairway but the Hellions have placed a magical ward on, blocking entrance in hopes of forcing you through the flames.  To your left is a custodian's closet that they didn't put a ward on.  Do you:

 

      A.  Brave the fire and take notable damage

      B.  Have a magic origin teammate attack the ward on the stairway door (melee or range strikes) shattering it and allowing you a means of circumventing the fire.

      C.  Have a science origin teammate McGuyver the chemicals in the custodian's closet to create a primitive fire-snuffing foam to create a passage through the fire.

 

These kind of adventures would offer several points of decision making encompassing all 5 origins.

 

This would mean you'd not have any power creep, nor the potential of one origin outperforming another.  You wouldn't even have to form a team with all 5 origins.  You could always muscle through either taking extended damage, or possibly having a longer path, etc.  And you might have multiple origin options at each challenge point.  Hey, you might even have two origins working the same problem:  how does that flame-retardant foam get delivered to target?  The tech origin jury-rigs an extinguisher.

[Herotu]

6 hours ago, Golden Azrael said:

Origins define characters. 

Some heroes' only interesting stories are their origin stories. That's why we've had about 4 or 5 Spider-man films that deal with how he got his powers, rather than progressing his story.

[Aracknight]

I'd finish the other "Origin power pools," and make them free like the Fitness pool is to the applicable origin you've chosen for your character.  This would be especially helpful for melee types who could use a (arguably mediocre) ranged attack, as well as give folks a free travel power that isnt temporary for those with tight builds.  

 

You could also create....for lack of a better term..."Origin Invention Origin" enhancement sets that can only be slotted by the applicable origin, sort of like ATOs.  Catalyze them and all for more goodness.

 

 You could create a long recharge clicky power that is Origin based like the alignment like Call to Justice or Duplicity.

 

You could create mini-zones that only allow in your origin type.  There could be training mini-games that are travel based keyed to your origin travel power with badges like the slopes in Pocket D.  This could be a place to buy the OIOs i mentioned above.  There could also be Empowerment stations flavored to your origin if for some reason you aren't in an sg or vg with a base.  There could even be teleport stations for the same reason.

 

 

And, though i do not know if this is even possible, you could have Origin Tip Missions that if you do enough of them, allow you to change your Origin, similar to how it was done for alignment before Null the Gull spoiled us.

 

That's the immediate stuff that came to mind.

 

 

[biostem]

39 minutes ago, Techwright said:

A.  Brave the fire and take notable damage

Why couldn't you have an ice or water user extinguish the flames?

 

39 minutes ago, Techwright said:

B.  Have a magic origin teammate attack the ward on the stairway door (melee or range strikes) shattering it and allowing you a means of circumventing the fire.

Or a sufficiently advanced tech character is able to decipher the underlying mechanism of the barrier and dismantle it, or a mutant whose powers happen to be of a similar energy as the barrier can absorb or disrupt it.

 

39 minutes ago, Techwright said:

C.  Have a science origin teammate McGuyver the chemicals in the custodian's closet to create a primitive fire-snuffing foam to create a passage through the fire.

Or any character just grabs a nearby fire extinguisher.

 

You seem to think that all magic characters would have access to similar knowledge or abilities, which they simply do not.  A magic origin brute may not know how to break such barriers, nor would all science origin characters know how to concoct some sort of fire suppressant.  You are limiting people's options with these suggestions, not expanding them...

 

The origin simply means how your character got their powers or where they come from - not what form those powers take, how said character uses them, or how much knowledge your character has regarding that origin.  A person who simply utilizes a mech suit may not know how the underlying technology works or how to apply it, outside of being a really good pilot.  A science character may have gotten their abilities as the result of an accident, but have no knowledge of chemistry, physics, or any of the sciences.  An "origin story" is not the same as the specific details regarding the macguffin or event that garnered the person their powers or abilities...

Edited June 25, 2022 by biostem

[Golden Azrael]

12 hours ago, Herotu said:

Some heroes' only interesting stories are their origin stories. That's why we've had about 4 or 5 Spider-man films that deal with how he got his powers, rather than progressing his story.

 

True.

 

'Hero' defining in the Web-Slingers case.

 

Lots of retellings.  I prefer the Stan Lee & Steve Ditko version, though.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

12 hours ago, Aracknight said:

I'd finish the other "Origin power pools," and make them free like the Fitness pool is to the applicable origin you've chosen for your character.  This would be especially helpful for melee types who could use a (arguably mediocre) ranged attack, as well as give folks a free travel power that isnt temporary for those with tight builds.  

 

You could also create....for lack of a better term..."Origin Invention Origin" enhancement sets that can only be slotted by the applicable origin, sort of like ATOs.  Catalyze them and all for more goodness.

 

 You could create a long recharge clicky power that is Origin based like the alignment like Call to Justice or Duplicity.

 

You could create mini-zones that only allow in your origin type.  There could be training mini-games that are travel based keyed to your origin travel power with badges like the slopes in Pocket D.  This could be a place to buy the OIOs i mentioned above.  There could also be Empowerment stations flavored to your origin if for some reason you aren't in an sg or vg with a base.  There could even be teleport stations for the same reason.

 

 

And, though i do not know if this is even possible, you could have Origin Tip Missions that if you do enough of them, allow you to change your Origin, similar to how it was done for alignment before Null the Gull spoiled us.

 

That's the immediate stuff that came to mind.

 

 

 

Some sound ideas there.  You make an interesting point about the Origin Power Pool.  RE: making them free and finishing off the others.  

 

I think more clearly defining the Origin arcs and through the Tiers 1-10, 11-20 etc.

Finishing the Origin Power Pools and including them free with some unique looking 'Origin' enhancements /bonus flavours.

 

Tips.  They're quite simple missions.  I like the idea of them being tailored with Origins in mind.  That's something the AE CoH community could help with in terms of workload.

 

And the 'Origin' clicky power with an nice flashy origin graphic presentation.  It adds to the 'flavour' of your Origin choice.  Currently, it has little material impact.  Even the 'free' power trinket doesn't scale.  I'd include an artefact for each level range.  They'd add up over time.  And have them scale?

 

I like your thinking.

 

Azrael.