How Can Origin Be Better?

[Herotu]

I like the idea of Origin, but I think it was implemented half-heartedly, ending up as just an inconvenience when the wrong enhancements drop.

 

I wonder how Origin could be more interesting than that?

 

Whatever I've thought of - perhaps messages regarding a laboratory where your science experiment went wrong or whatever -  it's going to impact on the roley-poley players - they always ruin everything with their constraining creativity. 😞

[Thrones]

I think IOs solved the wrong enhancement drop issue pretty well. First thing that came to mind is Origin resonance on power pools. Make it so every power pool has corresponding Origin. Now what does the resonance do? Can't buff or add any discount, because that would ruin balance in game and cause a whole slue of problems. Maybe a 0.1% chance for an Origin Insight; Double damage, immediate recharge, ect. With a large font displaying ORGIN EFFECT JUST HAPPENED, or something of that nature. 

 

Alas, I view Homecoming as complete, if the server was left in indefinite maintenance, I'd be happy to just relive memories of playing with my friends on Live. The fact that there is a volunteer Dev team that is actively working on making Homecoming Unique, is simply amazing.  

[Sakura Tenshi]

@Tyrannical actually had an idea awhile ago (can't find the post) for origin related tip missions that could drop which I was a pretty big fan of. Aside from that I thought it'd be interesting if some origin enhancement stores started to also carry some temp powers that might be stronger depending on your origin.

[Herotu]

4 hours ago, Thrones said:

I think IOs solved the wrong enhancement drop issue pretty well. First thing that came to mind is Origin resonance on power pools. Make it so every power pool has corresponding Origin. Now what does the resonance do? Can't buff or add any discount, because that would ruin balance in game and cause a whole slue of problems. Maybe a 0.1% chance for an Origin Insight; Double damage, immediate recharge, ect. With a large font displaying ORGIN EFFECT JUST HAPPENED, or something of that nature. 

That's all very nice, but it's the same issue as before - the actual origin isn't reflected in this at all. It's like Enhancements. The enhancement NAME is something to do with the origin, but the EFFECT is nothing to do with an origin. All the enhancements have their equivalent in the other origins. There's nothing special/unique about any particular origin.

 

 

[El D]

There were a few minor dialogue inclusions in the Shining Stars series of arcs that referenced they player having different Origins - providing unique interactions with NPCs/objectives, mostly. Sort of in-line with how the Origin of Powers arc gives you alternate dialogue depending on a character's Origin. I understand that sort of thing is difficult to pull off because 'Devs can't account for every player background in the game' but more references like that in content could be fun.

 

Also, Origin choice used to matter slightly more back in the day, when it determined your starting contacts with the FBSA and influenced which contacts you were encouraged to choose from afterword. That was actually one of the major points of having multiple contacts that gave the same Story Arc in lower-level play - so you weren't necessarily locked out of a particular arc (or forced to take a contact who didn't give you DOs/SOs you couldn't use). Frankly, I kind of wish we could still do the older mission arcs as they used to be played, starting with the FBSA in City Hall and following along your Origins' 'path.' After the Live devs streamlined the early game, there's some lower-level content that is basically only accessible via Ouroboros now, which is a shame.

 

I get why it was done - the initial FBSA stuff is kind of just busy work without any actual story and was made in the beginning of the game's lifetime when 'Usher players into the hazard zones to street sweep' was considered Actual Content - but it still just seems a waste to have them sitting in there doing nothing. Hell, if they were just an alternate source of Scanner or Tip missions with the selection curated depending on the player's Origin, that you could dip into whenever, that'd give them more usability. Redside would kind of get left out on this, due to the complete lack of starting Origin-specific contacts, unless the HC devs happened to make some more. Though, thinking about it, having some of the Rogue Isles Villains placed around as alternate, Origin-specific Paper/Tip contacts could be neat.

Edited June 23, 2022 by El D

[Alchemystic]

2 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

@Tyrannical actually had an idea awhile ago (can't find the post) for origin related tip missions that could drop which I was a pretty big fan of. Aside from that I thought it'd be interesting if some origin enhancement stores started to also carry some temp powers that might be stronger depending on your origin.

 

Not to worry, I managed to find it 😉
 

 

[Techwright]

6 hours ago, Herotu said:

I wonder how Origin could be more interesting

 

Okay, really rough, off-the-cuff thinking here, but what if we gain 1 origin effect to be applied to any 1 power either every 10 levels for the first 50 levels (so 5 total), or per Terra Volta respec mission unlock (so 3 total)?  Call it the "8th slot" (You'll see why in a moment).  Anything in the 8th slot is slight in power, but increases every time another origin effect unlocks.  So at level 10, I may only have a 0.5% damage or chance, but at 20 it will increase to 1.0% as will the new unlock, at 30 it will be 1.5% and so on.

 

1. Mutation Origin: "Randomization" - Each 8th slot origin effect enhancement is a slight effect of a random beneficial mutation not necessarily related to anything within the power.  So, for example I might be an energy blaster and receive a random 0,5% dark damage ability to put in the 8th slot of my choice, or if put in a defensive ability, it might create a 0.5% chance to create a feedback stun to any enemy that hits you.

2. Magic: "Spell Binding" - slight proc can trigger any one of the active slots on a power (the proc might actually be slightly higher in value since it isn't constant like other origins)

3. Natural: "Discipline" - slight increase specific to one or two slots in a power suggesting the idea that a natural character focuses on honing a skill, like accuracy or endurance.

4. Science: "Discovery" : slight usage of an enhancement not current slotted but potentially usable for a power.  If power has one or two enhancement possibilities (say a defense power) then a slight boost to that enhancement.

5. Technology: "Invent": unlocks a seventh slot, but it only gives a slight amount to whatever enhancement you slot there. 

 

 

As I said, this is a quick thought without deep considerations to the pros and cons.  It's brainstorming.  If it's liked, I'm sure others will sand the rough spots and improve upon it.

[Greycat]

And to think that at one time, Origin created worlds... >.>

 

The main issue with having any sort of power boost or power effect tied to origin (to me) is that we've got thousands of characters out there who just picked "whatever," or picked a theme - and origin can't be changed.  It's in there with AT, primary and secondary.

 

The only thing I can think of that isn't going to affect characters directly in that way, but would be tied to origin (and not, say, locking costume bits behind origin, because *that would be annoying as hell,*) is tying origin in with 1-50 investigations, NPC reactions to you (the Circle does anything from comment about a magic character to trying to ambush them, say) - more gameplay options, in other words.  Arc with Crey trying to recruit you as tech (or science,) with "mysterious armored mercenaries" occasionally popping up. Council/Column perhaps for natural, etc. It's a lot of writing work, but it's not something that would be retroactively "unfair" to any particular origin.  (And if you didn't want to do them, like any other mission/story arc, you could ignore it.)

[Herotu]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

And to think that at one time, Origin created worlds... >.>

 

The main issue with having any sort of power boost or power effect tied to origin (to me) is that we've got thousands of characters out there who just picked "whatever," or picked a theme - and origin can't be changed.  It's in there with AT, primary and secondary.

 

The only thing I can think of that isn't going to affect characters directly in that way, but would be tied to origin (and not, say, locking costume bits behind origin, because *that would be annoying as hell,*) is tying origin in with 1-50 investigations, NPC reactions to you (the Circle does anything from comment about a magic character to trying to ambush them, say) - more gameplay options, in other words.  Arc with Crey trying to recruit you as tech (or science,) with "mysterious armored mercenaries" occasionally popping up. Council/Column perhaps for natural, etc. It's a lot of writing work, but it's not something that would be retroactively "unfair" to any particular origin.  (And if you didn't want to do them, like any other mission/story arc, you could ignore it.)

That idea there sounds a lot like the nemesis idea that did the rounds a few years ago. I think it's got such legs, and could be used to give you a bunch of unique-ish enemies. Design your own nemesis, choose from a list of premade ones, or have a random one selected from said list for you if you don't care. Maybe the nemesis has minions that are specific to the origin type. So even if you design your nemesis to be some #crazy_magic_clown.com, if you're of Science origin, their minions are guys in lab coats.

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Herotu

[dangeraaron10]

1 hour ago, Herotu said:

That idea there sounds a lot like the nemesis idea that did the rounds a few years ago. I think it's got such legs, and could be used to give you a bunch of unique-ish enemies. Design your own nemesis, choose from a list of premade ones, or have a random one selected from said list for you if you don't care. Maybe the nemesis has minions that are specific to the origin type. So even if you design your nemesis to be some #crazy_magic_clown.com, if you're of Science origin, their minions are guys in lab coats.

 

 

My goodness I'd adore a CoH take on the Nemesis System.  Champions Online's best feature after its character creator l.

[Gulbasaur]

10 hours ago, El D said:

rankly, I kind of wish we could still do the older mission arcs as they used to be played, starting with the FBSA in City Hall and following along your Origins' 'path.' After the Live devs streamlined the early game, there's some lower-level content that is basically only accessible via Ouroboros now, which is a shame.

Some of it isn't even available by Ouroboros - I'd like to see the Origin mission chains converted into story arcs because that's basically what they are. 

 

There are a number of narrative-driven contacts that, for whatever reason, aren't classified as story arcs, particularly blueside. It's an early game quirk - story arcs seem to be something the early devs were a bit inconsistent about. 

 

Anyway, origins. Half-formed ideas:

• I'd actually like it if the origin power pools were locked into origins in some way, but I realise that it's hard to justify really. It's just me being a grump. I like having some limitations to play around. 
• Epic archetypes used to have a locked origin for lore reasons. I know it's just a "interpret it how you want" thing, and things like the Origins of Power story arc promote an interesting discussion about what's really classified as a mutant, or natural, or magical for that matter... but lore. 
• Origin missions aren't story arcs so there's little reason to do them. They're good! 
• The origin powers, like apprentice charm - would be nice if they were upgradeable or scaleable or something. Maybe through a mission chain like how stores used to have to be unlocked, or the capes and auras required unlocking. I like unlocks. Let me unlock things. 
• In the end, we're all Magic. The Well of the Furies, and by extension the Incarnate system, would appear to be magical in function. I'm sure someone could explain it as nanotechnology, or inspiring you, but the lore seems to suggest it has a divine connection and that's a short-circuit right to Magic. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Gulbasaur

[biostem]

Any mechanical difference between origins will either be meta-gamed by people wanting a specific effect over another, or it'll clash with someone's backstory/bio.  Frankly, I'd prefer it remain as non-impacting as possible.  I'd rather see any such efforts put toward more power customization, like an option for some sort of tech-glyph for arcane bolt, or some sort of crystal or magic item for aid other/self...

Edited June 24, 2022 by biostem

[Herotu]

2 hours ago, biostem said:

Any mechanical difference between origins will either be meta-gamed by people wanting a specific effect over another, or it'll clash with someone's backstory/bio.  Frankly, I'd prefer it remain as non-impacting as possible.  I'd rather see any such efforts put toward more power customization, like an option for some sort of tech-glyph for arcane bolt, or some sort of crystal or magic item for aid other/self...

I'm sorry. This comment is repeated all over the forums. I mention roleplayers being a problem in the original post and I mean it.

I appreciate that creativity is awesome, but Roleplaying should not be an excuse to make everything featureless and generic. 

[Marshal_General]

I would love to see extensive origin story arcs that told a continuing story instead of just sending you to an origin contact that had missions vaguely related to your origin.

 

This way your origin would matter all throughout the leveling process

[Golden Azrael]

19 hours ago, Herotu said:

I like the idea of Origin, but I think it was implemented half-heartedly, ending up as just an inconvenience when the wrong enhancements drop.

 

I wonder how Origin could be more interesting than that?

 

Whatever I've thought of - perhaps messages regarding a laboratory where your science experiment went wrong or whatever -  it's going to impact on the roley-poley players - they always ruin everything with their constraining creativity. 😞

 

Perhaps a more obvious label to the 'Origin' path that 'is' there currently.  (Somebody on another thread suggested a little 'Origin' badge circle icon on a given Origin type.  So that when you pick up your next content it is crystal clear to new comer and vet players alike.)

 

Tailoring content explicitly to your Origin 'path' throughout the game.  

 

Giving each Origin a buff unique to that Origin that isn't available to the other Origins.  This could make a team of out of the box 'magic' characters/heroes stronger against Magic foes.

 

Giving each Origin type a unique costume part.  Eg.  Unique magic belt/helmet/gloves/chest emblem etc.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

16 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

@Tyrannical actually had an idea awhile ago (can't find the post) for origin related tip missions that could drop which I was a pretty big fan of. Aside from that I thought it'd be interesting if some origin enhancement stores started to also carry some temp powers that might be stronger depending on your origin.

 

Good idea re: Origin Tips.  And if you have a Magic Origin, you get an inherent buff for those types of missions.  eg. -5% to hit against CoT to somewhat counter/neutralise their very own -to hit powers.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

4 hours ago, Gulbasaur said:

Some of it isn't even available by Ouroboros - I'd like to see the Origin mission chains converted into story arcs because that's basically what they are. 

 

There are a number of narrative-driven contacts that, for whatever reason, aren't classified as story arcs, particularly blueside. It's an early game quirk - story arcs seem to be something the early devs were a bit inconsistent about. 

 

Anyway, origins. Half-formed ideas:

• I'd actually like it if the origin power pools were locked into origins in some way, but I realise that it's hard to justify really. It's just me being a grump. I like having some limitations to play around. 
• Epic archetypes used to have a locked origin for lore reasons. I know it's just a "interpret it how you want" thing, and things like the Origins of Power story arc promote an interesting discussion about what's really classified as a mutant, or natural, or magical for that matter... but lore. 
• Origin missions aren't story arcs so there's little reason to do them. They're good! 
• The origin powers, like apprentice charm - would be nice if they were upgradeable or scaleable or something. Maybe through a mission chain like how stores used to have to be unlocked, or the capes and auras required unlocking. I like unlocks. Let me unlock things. 
• In the end, we're all Magic. The Well of the Furies, and by extension the Incarnate system, would appear to be magical in function. I'm sure someone could explain it as nanotechnology, or inspiring you, but the lore seems to suggest it has a divine connection and that's a short-circuit right to Magic. 

 

Sound post.  Good ideas.

 

It's about making those Origin arcs count.  For me.

 

Having the Magic Origin linked to receiving your magical item.  Having extra 'magical' items (from other magical arcs) every ten levels until you hit L50.  So you could end up with a handful of magical artefacts.

 

Unlocks.  I liked having to 'earn' the 'Cape Mission.'

 

I'd extend the Origin arcs from Atlas to each range.  1-10, 11-20 etc.  So there is at least one explicit origin arc you could do in each range.  And yes.  Linked to an artefact of power/ability.

 

Any divergent mission arcs or content available?  Make it really explicit that it's magic origin content.  There is plenty of content.

 

You have a point about the early game being streamlined.  I wasn't overly keen on that move.  Or destroying Galaxy.  Or Statesman.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

13 hours ago, Techwright said:

 

Okay, really rough, off-the-cuff thinking here, but what if we gain 1 origin effect to be applied to any 1 power either every 10 levels for the first 50 levels (so 5 total), or per Terra Volta respec mission unlock (so 3 total)?  Call it the "8th slot" (You'll see why in a moment).  Anything in the 8th slot is slight in power, but increases every time another origin effect unlocks.  So at level 10, I may only have a 0.5% damage or chance, but at 20 it will increase to 1.0% as will the new unlock, at 30 it will be 1.5% and so on.

 

1. Mutation Origin: "Randomization" - Each 8th slot origin effect enhancement is a slight effect of a random beneficial mutation not necessarily related to anything within the power.  So, for example I might be an energy blaster and receive a random 0,5% dark damage ability to put in the 8th slot of my choice, or if put in a defensive ability, it might create a 0.5% chance to create a feedback stun to any enemy that hits you.

2. Magic: "Spell Binding" - slight proc can trigger any one of the active slots on a power (the proc might actually be slightly higher in value since it isn't constant like other origins)

3. Natural: "Discipline" - slight increase specific to one or two slots in a power suggesting the idea that a natural character focuses on honing a skill, like accuracy or endurance.

4. Science: "Discovery" : slight usage of an enhancement not current slotted but potentially usable for a power.  If power has one or two enhancement possibilities (say a defense power) then a slight boost to that enhancement.

5. Technology: "Invent": unlocks a seventh slot, but it only gives a slight amount to whatever enhancement you slot there. 

 

 

As I said, this is a quick thought without deep considerations to the pros and cons.  It's brainstorming.  If it's liked, I'm sure others will sand the rough spots and improve upon it.

 

Opening a 7th slot is interesting.

 

You could have a unique 'Origin' icon and associated 'gift' ability as you've suggested.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

9 hours ago, dangeraaron10 said:

 

My goodness I'd adore a CoH take on the Nemesis System.  Champions Online's best feature after its character creator l.

 

The one thing missing from CoH that was sound in Champions.  The Nemesis System.  Be cool to define your Nemesis when define your character on the creator.

 

It's the missing step...  *(puts in suggestion box for HC Devs.)

 

You create your own Nemesis?  And you fight then in periodic mini-mission arcs in the level ranges 1-10, 11-20 etc.

 

Azrael.

[Golden Azrael]

35 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

I would love to see extensive origin story arcs that told a continuing story instead of just sending you to an origin contact that had missions vaguely related to your origin.

 

This way your origin would matter all throughout the leveling process

 

THIS.

 

Azrael.

[TheOtherTed]

9 hours ago, dangeraaron10 said:

 

My goodness I'd adore a CoH take on the Nemesis System.  Champions Online's best feature after its character creator l.

Much as I enjoyed my time in CO, their implementation of the Nemesis system has to rank a far distant second at best...

 

But back on topic, the only idea I can think of, that couldn't be gamed or min-maxed to death is to have Origin-specific arcs or TFs that can only be started by someone of the same origin.  So, for example, only a Mutation-based character could start a Mutation-specific arc, but he/she/it could form a team and invite characters of other origins to help.  Of course, this could still be gamed if origin-specific characters demand inf from team members, but that might be undercut by Tyrannical's origin tips idea.  Still, it would need a lot of work and decent writing.  And badges to get people motivated to do it.  Maybe not such a good idea.

 

I'll also throw this out there because I think it's relevant but I don't know what to do with it.  I've always seen the origins as a sort of spectrum, where each origin is adjacent to one other origin.  For example, Natural-Tech-Science-Mutation-Magic.  Not the only spectrum possible of course, and it kills me that I can't find a way to "close the loop," but maybe this will jog someone with a better brain than mine.

[TheZag]

4 minutes ago, TheOtherTed said:

Natural-Tech-Science-Mutation-Magic.  Not the only spectrum possible of course, and it kills me that I can't find a way to "close the loop,"

 

Dual origin enhancements already closed the loop.  Natural/Magic is a dual origin enhancement type and i think the rest follow that same loop as well.

[TheOtherTed]

I mean conceptually.  "Magic" and "Natural" seem like near-opposites to me.  Plus, we have DOs for every pair of origins, so that doesn't mean much for the "spectrum" or "loop" idea.  Not to mention that DOs have become pretty much irrelevant at this point.

[GastlyGibus]

I suggested this a few months ago, but one thing I'd really like to see is contacts selling enhancements again. That could be a great tie-in with origin, especially if contacts offered certain enhancements or salvage at a discount. Have a magic origin contact, do some missions, and they go "hey, check out my stock of magical items," and have every contact offer SO's based on that origin. That way, it's not a distinct advantage, since every contact and origin gets the same thing, but it still adds a bit more flavor and reason to your choices.

You could even expand this a little by having contacts sell things that normally aren't sold. I know salvage is categorized as arcane or tech, so that could be neat. As other have suggested as well, you could have origin-based tip missions that could give special rewards like rare recipe drops or salvage. I'd honestly just like to have a system in place so players aren't so heavily reliant on the auction house to buy stuff they need.

Edited June 24, 2022 by GastlyGibus

[TheZag]

1 hour ago, TheOtherTed said:

I mean conceptually.  "Magic" and "Natural" seem like near-opposites to me.  Plus, we have DOs for every pair of origins, so that doesn't mean much for the "spectrum" or "loop" idea.  Not to mention that DOs have become pretty much irrelevant at this point.

 

There arent DOs for every pair of origins.  Magic DOs come as Focusing Device for Mutation/Magic origin and as Relic that is for Natural/Magic characters.  Natural DOs only come in the previous mentioned Relic for Natural/Magic and as Gadget for Natural/Technology.  There arent DOs that cover every possible pair,  just the neighbor of each origin in the 'circle'

 

Natural -> Magic -> Mutation -> Science -> Technology -> Natural

 

So Science/Technology and Science/Mutation DOs exist but Science/Magic and Science/Natural dont.  In City of Heroes land,  Magic and Natural are related,  not opposite.