issue 27 Focused Feedback: Attack Typing Adjustments

[Stormwalker]

20 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

 

I think positionals are still sort of the elephant behind the curtain, since it's basically just as viable to shift a squishy's typed def build to a hoverblaster. It's something I usually avoid on characters either for concepts or mechanics (hi, Seismic) but if the intent is to design more dangerous enemies checking rare typed defenses, it's also the safest route.

 

Mostly I was thinking of Super Reflexes and Shield Defense, which are positional-defense sets out of the box.  Of course, they still have their own particular kryptonite (Mind Control, which has attacks with no positional component that only target psi defense... of which those two sets have none).  But the attack typing adjustments don't affect those sets at all.

[@Ghost]

24 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Mostly I was thinking of Super Reflexes and Shield Defense, which are positional-defense sets out of the box.  Of course, they still have their own particular kryptonite (Mind Control, which has attacks with no positional component that only target psi defense... of which those two sets have none).  But the attack typing adjustments don't affect those sets at all.

 

Yeah, that's true, though I don't think the intent behind the changes was to nerf any of the defense armor sets. A few sets got additional toxic/psionic defense and resistance to likely ensure they're still strong after the changes, and as mentioned -- none of it impacts positional sets. That leaves resist sets and squishies building out s/l/e def, where all of the changes are centered around making that strategy less all encompassing.

 

Melee defense isn't quite as convenient for those resist sets, especially with the aggro changes making it more likely than ever you'll get peppered with ranged attacks a lot of the time. But ranged defense and hoverblasting I think would be the predominant strat going forward (until someone decides that's also a problem.)

[aethereal]

21 minutes ago, @Ghost said:

But ranged defense and hoverblasting I think would be the predominant strat going forward (until someone decides that's also a problem.)

 

There's no equivalent of Scorpion Shield for ranged defense.

[KaizenSoze]

29 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

There's no equivalent of Scorpion Shield for ranged defense.

I have been doing fine with Scorpion Shield softcapped energy defense is still very helpful.

 

There are quite a few sets that provide 3.75% ranged defense, but you need to slot all six pieces.

 

There are few tricks like slotting two pieces of Blessing of Zephyr in travels powers. Also, Thunder Strike is another set that will give you some ranged defense without a full set. A full set will give you even more. Folks will figure it out. 

[Archmonoth]

3 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

There's no equivalent of Scorpion Shield for ranged defense.

Scorp shield is for energy defense mainly, which is rikti and malta. 

 

Positional defense is pretty easy to build for. I would guess AOE is still going to be the easiest, followed by ranged. 

[Archmonoth]

3 hours ago, @Ghost said:

 

Yeah, that's true, though I don't think the intent behind the changes was to nerf any of the defense armor sets. A few sets got additional toxic/psionic defense and resistance to likely ensure they're still strong after the changes, and as mentioned -- none of it impacts positional sets. That leaves resist sets and squishies building out s/l/e def, where all of the changes are centered around making that strategy less all encompassing.

 

Melee defense isn't quite as convenient for those resist sets, especially with the aggro changes making it more likely than ever you'll get peppered with ranged attacks a lot of the time. But ranged defense and hoverblasting I think would be the predominant strat going forward (until someone decides that's also a problem.)

 I think you are correct about hover blasting. 

 

 

[aethereal]

10 minutes ago, Archmonoth said:

Scorp shield is for energy defense mainly, which is rikti and malta. 

 

Positional defense is pretty easy to build for. I would guess AOE is still going to be the easiest, followed by ranged. 

Scorpion shield is, uh, very obviously for S/L and E defense.

 

If you have X sets that get you about 30% S/L defense, and Scorpion Shield to get you to 45% defense, then if you can get equally powerful sets that give ranged defense, you'll need probably another three to six sets to get you to ranged defense softcap instead.

 

It's certainly possible to softcap ranged defense as a squishy, but it takes much more build room than does softcapping S/L defense, assuming that you were willing to get Scorpion Shield with your ancillary pick.

Edited July 15, 2022 by aethereal

[SwitchFade]

The bottom line is, any exotic attack from any MOB in any faction, at any level, where the exotic damage is the majority share of the damage, will now check only that defense or positional on a PC.

 

This, most assuredly, is not insignificant; it is a significant change to Squishies.

 

Any toon that achieved solid blanket defense coverage from Alpha strikes by hitting 45%ish on S/L/E/N will now take more damage, and more swiftly. Even council have MOBs that prioritize exotic damage, as do Crey, outcast, CoT, Arachnos, Malta, Carnies,Pantheon, Vahz, Rikti, Lost, family...

 

Now, I don't like ignoring exotic defense as a rule, on any toon and have always tried to build all defense types. I also play a wide variety of toons and do not solo, I mainly team.

 

I also don't kite, I play primarily in melee on most toons.

 

This is how this change will affect me,

 

- Tanks - no real change

 

- Scraps - no real change

 

- Dom's - I build for all defense types to be 38-45 and ranged 45, so this means an increase in incoming damage due to S/L not being preferred, however I tend to alpha with stuns/KD, which mitigates, but there will be an increase in incoming damage

 

- Controllers - mixed to large, a few cannot build a significant value in all types, this will mean more incoming damage, but I tend to alpha with stuns

 

- Defenders - the several have all types above 38-40, and less mitigation as they are not controllers, so medium change here, alpha striking will be tougher and incoming damage will cause a much more pronounced swing from ok to dangerface, as my 50 S/L is not a blanket

 

- Stalkers - all defense types and positional are well above 45, no change

 

Blasters - large change. I melee, and it's impractical to attempt exotic defense, as the sacrifices are too great. S/L/E and maybe N we're basically it; incoming damage on alpha and beyond will now be much greater. I play in melee, I alpha and this will now mean less survivability and will necessitate a change in gameplay. When I run in and queue my alpha strike, I always take theirs, now any exotic MOB will be more likely to hit. Added to that, those exotic types tend to hold, stun, DoT etc

 

Add to this the new adjustments to aggro and this will mean that survivability for certain toons is significantly changed for certain play styles and pace. For example, the first mission of maria Jenkins, the pantheon outdoor pit map, where all that exotic damage is packed in to MOBs in groups standing in close proximity. Same with most indoor Arachnos maps, they bunch.

 

If we inspect the intended focus of this change, it is clear that the goal was to reign in the efficacy of high damage, less resilient (on paper) toons that tended to trivialize content and other ATs in a way that was unintended.

 

It's also clear that the Devs have among them a few (at minimum) very highly skilled/profressional game designers and coders, as this type of change is not one that would be easily deciphered or implemented. I spend a significant amount of time doing system architecture and the changes I make seem inconsequential to users, but have a very significant ripple effect and impact that is not readily perceivable to most, up front. I become more curious now, are there OG devs involved?

 

This will not be a small change, it will vary, but some will definitely feel it greatly. It does, however, swing the paradigm back to center in 35+ content.

 

This will likely need adjustment, on the fringes.

[KaizenSoze]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

The bottom line is, any exotic attack from any MOB in any faction, at any level, where the exotic damage is the majority share of the damage, will now check only that defense or positional on a PC.

 

This, most assuredly, is not insignificant; it is a significant change to Squishies.

 

Any toon that achieved solid blanket defense coverage from Alpha strikes by hitting 45%ish on S/L/E/N will now take more damage, and more swiftly. Even council have MOBs that prioritize exotic damage, as do Crey, outcast, CoT, Arachnos, Malta, Carnies,Pantheon, Vahz, Rikti, Lost, family...

 

Now, I don't like ignoring exotic defense as a rule, on any toon and have always tried to build all defense types. I also play a wide variety of toons and do not solo, I mainly team.

 

I also don't kite, I play primarily in melee on most toons.

 

This is how this change will affect me,

 

- Tanks - no real change

 

- Scraps - no real change

 

- Dom's - I build for all defense types to be 38-45 and ranged 45, so this means an increase in incoming damage due to S/L not being preferred, however I tend to alpha with stuns/KD, which mitigates, but there will be an increase in incoming damage

 

- Controllers - mixed to large, a few cannot build a significant value in all types, this will mean more incoming damage, but I tend to alpha with stuns

 

- Defenders - the several have all types above 38-40, and less mitigation as they are not controllers, so medium change here, alpha striking will be tougher and incoming damage will cause a much more pronounced swing from ok to dangerface, as my 50 S/L is not a blanket

 

- Stalkers - all defense types and positional are well above 45, no change

 

Blasters - large change. I melee, and it's impractical to attempt exotic defense, as the sacrifices are too great. S/L/E and maybe N we're basically it; incoming damage on alpha and beyond will now be much greater. I play in melee, I alpha and this will now mean less survivability and will necessitate a change in gameplay. When I run in and queue my alpha strike, I always take theirs, now any exotic MOB will be more likely to hit. Added to that, those exotic types tend to hold, stun, DoT etc

 

Add to this the new adjustments to aggro and this will mean that survivability for certain toons is significantly changed for certain play styles and pace. For example, the first mission of maria Jenkins, the pantheon outdoor pit map, where all that exotic damage is packed in to MOBs in groups standing in close proximity. Same with most indoor Arachnos maps, they bunch.

 

If we inspect the intended focus of this change, it is clear that the goal was to reign in the efficacy of high damage, less resilient (on paper) toons that tended to trivialize content and other ATs in a way that was unintended.

 

It's also clear that the Devs have among them a few (at minimum) very highly skilled/profressional game designers and coders, as this type of change is not one that would be easily deciphered or implemented. I spend a significant amount of time doing system architecture and the changes I make seem inconsequential to users, but have a very significant ripple effect and impact that is not readily perceivable to most, up front. I become more curious now, are there OG devs involved?

 

This will not be a small change, it will vary, but some will definitely feel it greatly. It does, however, swing the paradigm back to center in 35+ content.

 

This will likely need adjustment, on the fringes.

I know I sound like a broken record. Have you gone onto Brainstorm and tested it?

 

Folks who have tested it are not reporting a massive change. When this change first appeared, I was worried.

 

So, I tested it very heavily and found it not to big a deal.

[FUBARczar]

No doubt I'll find a way or power sets to deal with the new changes, but these changes are still a bit of a Donkey Punch.  

 

0. Reasons for change are still not obvious

1. The principle of the path of least resistance and law of unintended consequences: Defense armors are already King, and this will push even more characters into High-Def armor sets instead of other varieties.  This will limit diversity resulting in even more squishies turning to hover blasting.  

2. No accompanying adjustments/tweaks to non-high-defense armor sets.  

3. Widens the gap between haves and have nots (SR, SD, etc vs Elec, Regen, etc.)

4. No accompanying tweaks or additional IO sets to help build for new mechanics

5. and so on.

[ironjoe]

Defense changes I'm largely fine with this. It isn't as big a change in my testing with making some enemies only slightly more dangerous.

 

Grenade changes I saw in closed testing and I was just going to go with it as it seemed the devs were leaning into how video games get damage wrong. If we want to get fragmentary grenade damage right though damage should be mainly lethal with little to no amount of smashing. Really it's the shrapnel that gets you. There is not the huge ball of flame and concussive blast like movies. Concussive blasts would be more like a stun/flash grenade. Fiery grenades would be thermite grenades which don't create a huge fireball, they create a super intense fire that will cut through steel and burn under water. Normally thermite grenades are for anti-material use. You would have to be right on the fragmentary grenade to feel the concussion or fire of the blast and at that point you are eating ALL of the shrapnel and the shrapnel is still going to do greater than 90% of the damage.

[Sovera]

6 minutes ago, ironjoe said:

Defense changes I'm largely fine with this. It isn't as big a change in my testing with making some enemies only slightly more dangerous.

 

Grenade changes I saw in closed testing and I was just going to go with it as it seemed the devs were leaning into how video games get damage wrong. If we want to get fragmentary grenade damage right though damage should be mainly lethal with little to no amount of smashing. Really it's the shrapnel that gets you. There is not the huge ball of flame and concussive blast like movies. Concussive blasts would be more like a stun/flash grenade. Fiery grenades would be thermite grenades which don't create a huge fireball, they create a super intense fire that will cut through steel and burn under water. Normally thermite grenades are for anti-material use. You would have to be right on the fragmentary grenade to feel the concussion or fire of the blast and at that point you are eating ALL of the shrapnel and the shrapnel is still going to do greater than 90% of the damage.

 

Understandable. But lets not forget these changes are not roleplay based but rather gameplay. Smash and Lethal are already rolled into one and with the exception of Parry powers that buff Smash exclusively, or Slash, any bonus or toggle will buff both be it defense or resistance.

 

So a grenade doing Smash and Slash makes less sense than doing fire and... smash, or slash. Slash if wanting to adhere a bit more to realism.

 

 

I never 'got' why electricity is energy and smash, or sonic being energy and smash, or reversing it why ice does cold and slash. After all if we get hit by an ice club we get our brains spilling out, we don't freeze, and throwing an ice spear is the same with our body perforated at which point the cold of holding an icicle is inconsequential.

[Andreah]

21 minutes ago, Sovera said:

electricity is energy and smash, or sonic being energy and smash

I'd have made separate damage types for these entirely. But proliferation of types would be yet another problem.

[golstat2003]

Just now, Andreah said:

I'd have made separate damage types for these entirely. But proliferation of types would be yet another problem.

 

Probably lack of available time. The original devs were on deadlines and paid to produce. They didn't have time to tinker all day due to management and financial pressures. So unsurprising that they'd take the easy way out for things like damage types.

 

HC devs though, have no pressures. So I would be fine if they took 10 years to get us these new type of separate damage types and proliferated them. 🙂 

[kburd825]

I tested these changes on my Rad/Poison corr and did notice a difference.  My toon is fully T4-ed, although for this test, I didn't use any of the active incarnate powers except clarion.  I tried a couple of different Grandville paper missions but the most significant change was the Circle of Thorns with their ice thorn casters and the behemoths.  The difficulty was set at +2x4 which is my toon's limit with my imposed restrictions.  My toon was defeated multiple times on these test missions.  Immediately after, I went to the normal (non-test) server and tried this same type of mission at the same difficulty.  It was challenging, but my toon survived the mission.

I'm all for increasing the difficulty of the game but please don't change a fundamental function.  The changes I witnessed were not as dramatic as I had expected, but I still think this would be an overall negative change to our game.

[Nightmarer 2]

I don't like this, but this is just my opinion, nothing more 

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, kburd825 said:

I tested these changes on my Rad/Poison corr and did notice a difference.  My toon is fully T4-ed, although for this test, I didn't use any of the active incarnate powers except clarion.  I tried a couple of different Grandville paper missions but the most significant change was the Circle of Thorns with their ice thorn casters and the behemoths.  The difficulty was set at +2x4 which is my toon's limit with my imposed restrictions.  My toon was defeated multiple times on these test missions.  Immediately after, I went to the normal (non-test) server and tried this same type of mission at the same difficulty.  It was challenging, but my toon survived the mission.

I'm all for increasing the difficulty of the game but please don't change a fundamental function.  The changes I witnessed were not as dramatic as I had expected, but I still think this would be an overall negative change to our game.

 

How much Defense does that character have?  Were you using Weaken and Venomous Gas?  How do you have those two powers slotted?

[kburd825]

8 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

How much Defense does that character have?  Were you using Weaken and Venomous Gas?  How do you have those two powers slotted?

Defense: S/L 50%  Resist: S/L/F/C: 32%  Yes I was using both weaken and venomous gas and their slotting: weaken 5 slot siphon insight boosted to +5 and venomous gas 2 slotted lvl 51 enzyme exposures.  The total -tohit is -34 to primary target and -24 to the rest in range.

[ironjoe]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

 

Understandable. But lets not forget these changes are not roleplay based but rather gameplay. Smash and Lethal are already rolled into one and with the exception of Parry powers that buff Smash exclusively, or Slash, any bonus or toggle will buff both be it defense or resistance.

 

So a grenade doing Smash and Slash makes less sense than doing fire and... smash, or slash. Slash if wanting to adhere a bit more to realism.

 

 

I never 'got' why electricity is energy and smash, or sonic being energy and smash, or reversing it why ice does cold and slash. After all if we get hit by an ice club we get our brains spilling out, we don't freeze, and throwing an ice spear is the same with our body perforated at which point the cold of holding an icicle is inconsequential.

 

Well in that case for gameplay make most all of AR do Lethal/Fire also since that would be following the same logic. Both grenades and bullets are projectiles propelled by explosives and if I diversifying one thing for game play, why not the others?

[Sovera]

Just now, ironjoe said:

 

Well in that case for gameplay make most all of AR do Lethal/Fire also since that would be following the same logic. Both grenades and bullets are projectiles propelled by explosives and if I diversifying one thing for game play, why not the others?

 

And they might just do that. How can I know? But only when the devs do a pass for AR. So far this particular tweak was for the defense change that they did which they wanted to go easy and see if it was not too much.

 

I can't speak for the devs.

[FUBARczar]

Don't get me wrong, my game mates and I torture ourselves/myself plenty all the time.  Like running +4/8 MoITFs w/o inspirations with only 2-4 players for time, or to make it harder running short-man teams w/ the same settings but with a 1 team member just being a leader at lvl 44 to start it.  This way no incarnates and no level shift, etc.  So I'll find something that works.   

[Luminara]

20 minutes ago, kburd825 said:

Defense: S/L 50%  Resist: S/L/F/C: 32%  Yes I was using both weaken and venomous gas and their slotting: weaken 5 slot siphon insight boosted to +5 and venomous gas 2 slotted lvl 51 enzyme exposures.  The total -tohit is -34 to primary target and -24 to the rest in range.

 

0% Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative Defense?

[kburd825]

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

0% Fire/Cold/Energy/Negative Defense?

F/C/N are at 13 and E is at 28, chasing higher exotic defense would compromise my build

Also I forgot that I slotted agility alpha for the beta test while having cardiac slotted on the live server test.  So the my toon's defense will be slightly lower while resist will be slightly higher for the test mission.  Resist only changes by about 0.20% and defense to S/L drops by about 2%.  I am willing to do more specific testing if anyone would suggest something that is affected by this change that I can do solo.

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, kburd825 said:

chasing higher exotic defense would compromise my build

I would say that in Page 4, chasing them at least a little could significantly improve your build. I'm no build expert, but after applying those -tohits on those near and in range of your character, you have surplus in S/L defense over the softcap. Some of that could be switched to those exotics that are giving you issues now. If you can get F/C/N up to 21, that will be at/near the softcap for those who're debuffed near you. Those that are still attacking you from out of range would miss a little more, too. It might make all the difference.

[kburd825]

We've gotten off-topic.  My build is not min/maxed, it is somewhat average with S/L above softcap.  That is why I used it for testing.  This toon performed noticeably worse on the beta server compared to the current server.  It wasn't as dramatically different as I had expected though.  If I'm going to have to respec all of my S/L softcap toons to keep up, then I think this is a bad decision to make.  There must be some other solution, although we haven't been informed on what the problem is.  I'd be happy to brainstorm a solution if we could find out why this change is needed.