issue 27 Focused Feedback: Sonic Attack Revamp

[MoonSheep]

14 minutes ago, arcane said:

"March 2020"

 

can you link the updated stats? felt the original was better than nothing 

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

can you link the updated stats? felt the original was better than nothing 

They don't exist 😞

[Marshal_General]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

You can test it by getting the power analyzer and going and shooting something (a pylon is the trad choice) and analyzing its resistance.

 

But I honestly don't think you need to.  It would have been a huge amount of work for them to make the Sentinel inherent debuffs not stack with the Sonic debuffs.  There's pretty much no chance they accidentally screwed that up.

What I want to know is do the T1 and T2 stack with each other?

[aethereal]

27 minutes ago, Marshal_General said:

What I want to know is do the T1 and T2 stack with each other?

I think you're under a misapprehension about how the Sentinel inherent works.

 

So a Sonic sentinel under the current Beta rules has access to four separate sources of resistance debuff that can be (in some cases) triggered by their T1 and T2 powers.

 

The Sentinel Opportunity inherent applies a -5% resistance debuff to any hostile target hit by any power from the Sentinel, including but not limited to the T1 and T2.  This does not stack from your own powers -- so once you hit with any power, you apply this and further power hits do not stack any more resistance from this source.

 

Both the T1 and the T2, as well as most other sonic attack powers, apply the "Short" debuff, which is -5.76% resistance.  This does not stack with multiple applications from the same caster -- so once one of your powers applies this, it won't be applied again.

 

Both the T1 and the T2, and not the other sonic attack powers, apply the "Lingering" debuff, which is -3.84% resistance.  This does not stack with multiple applications from the same caster -- so once one of yoru powers applies this, it won't be applied again.

 

If your rage/opportunity meter is >90% full then you'll get red and blue rings around your T1 and T2, then either the T1 or the T2 will apply a -20% resistance debuff that's generally considered part of the Sentinel inherent, though actually it's coded onto the T1 and T2 powers themselves.  This is called the "Vulnerability" debuff.  This does not stack with anything, including other casters' use of Vulnerability.  There shouldn't really be any opportunity for you to use both the T1 and the T2 vulnerability (using one puts you in lockout and removes the chance to use the other), but if you somehow did, they wouldn't stack.

 

All of these four sources of -resist stack with each other, so you can potentially put a total of -34% and change resistance on a target with one hit of the T1 or T2 power (but only if your rage/opportunity meter is > 90%).

 

The only change here in the beta is changing the former -9.6% or whatever it exactly was debuff to two pieces and how they stack with other powers.  The Sentinel inherent is unchanged and independent of the Sonic Attack specific changes.

[Marshal_General]

Does the normal -5% get succeeded by the -20% from vulnerability or does that stack?

I created a sonic sent on beta right before the patch was announced, so yeah, I don't know much about it.

 

I have run around doing radio missions at level 22, which is what I tend to test characters at since that is when I slot generic level 25 IOs. If things go well, I then look at bumping it up to 50 for testing.

[aethereal]

3 hours ago, Marshal_General said:

Does the normal -5% get succeeded by the -20% from vulnerability or does that stack?

They stack.

[Sovera]

Speaking of Sonic, were the alternate animations ever fixed? I vaguely remember the brouhaha about them having increased cast times.

[Jacke]

I've no time to test this.  As well, my only Sonic Attack toon is a Sonic/Energy Blaster from pre-Shutdown whom I haven't recreated on Homecoming.

 

It seems in testing that the changes are good for Blasters.  But problematic for Defenders and Corruptors.  I find weakening their ability to apply -Res unfortunate.  Also I recall the Purple Patch means the usual targets in +4x8 combat--where -Res is needed--already only get about half the amount of -Res.  The combination of these two factors makes this change for Defenders and Corruptors a massive nerf.

Edited July 18, 2022 by Jacke

[arcane]

10 minutes ago, Jacke said:

I've no time to test this. 

 

The combination of these two factors makes this change for Defenders and Corruptors a massive nerf.

Considering both classes received substantial buffs alongside the -res changes, perhaps testing is required to allege a net nerf.

[Jacke]

40 minutes ago, arcane said:

Considering both classes received substantial buffs alongside the -res changes, perhaps testing is required to allege a net nerf.

 

Considering that a Defender or Corruptor with Sonic Attack is likely on a team and their -Res improves the effective damage of the whole team against a hard target, of course it's a nerf.

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Jacke said:

 

Considering that a Defender or Corruptor with Sonic Attack is likely on a team and their -Res improves the effective damage of the whole team against a hard target, of course it's a nerf.

(1) “hard targets” are a tiny fraction of the game. So if those are critical to the argument, of course it’s a buff. In the vast majority of cases Howl is the only -res most of your team is benefiting from.

 

(2) All classes can and do solo. I routinely do better solo DPS on certain corruptors/defenders than on most of my blasters.

Edited July 18, 2022 by arcane

[Sovera]

For what it is worth I tested the new Sonic for Sentinels on a Pylon. It does not say much since I do not have a Live version to compare with.

 

- 5:43

 

 

I did test the 'new' Elec paired with Bio and got 3 minutes when leveraging the Shocked mechanic and 3:40 without. This is apples to oranges though since different sets. But if new changes I'll have one data to compare against.

 

 

But since this is an 'AoE' set what with three cones plus a nuke I also did a Trapdoor test.

 

- 7:20

- 7:19

 

To put it in perspective the Elec/bio did it in 7:28 with just humble Ball Lightning and the nuke.

[aethereal]

Some notes on resistance debuffs:

 

Remember that resistance debuffs are affected by the Purple Patch!

 

If a team is at +4, as lots of teams are, what does that mean?

 

If the team level and your level are both 50 and the team is +4, then enemies are 54, and so they're either +4 to you or +3 to you if you have a level shift.

If the team level is below 50 and you're at or above the team level, and the team is +4, then enemies are a 50/50 mix of +4 and +5 to you (+3 and +4 if you have a level shift)

If the team is below 50 and you're below the team level, and the team is +4, then enemies are a 50/50 mix of +5 and +6 to you (impossible for you to have a level shift in this situation)

 

Debuff modifiers if enemies are:

 

+3 to you:  .65

+4 to you:  .48

+5 to you:  .3

+6 to you:  .15

 

Corruptors get a 15% debuff per attack (on Live, split into pieces on beta).  If you have a .65 modifier to that, it's roughly 10%.  If you have a .48 modifier to that, it's roughly 7.5%.  If you have a .3 modifier, it's roughly 5%, and .15 is roughly 2.5%.

 

Yeah, you'll do better than that against +2 and lower opponents, but...  does a large team really need help against +2 and lower opponents?  Even AVs?

 

Unfortunately, like all debuffs, there's sort of a catch 22 where the things that you most need the help against are least affected by the debuffs.  Like, the 10% debuff per attack that a Corruptor with sonic blast gets against a +3 opponent (ie, a level 50 team when you're level 50 and you also have a level shift) is pretty substantial.  But then we're talking a large team of incarnates against an AV.  That's usually zerg-o'clock.  Are there teams where you're like, "Some of this team is underleveled and we're fighting someone tough and I'd really like the help?"  Sure.  But then you're probably at 7.5% or 5% per attack, and it's honestly not a ton.

 

So, TL;DR:  Test it out, don't just rely on your intuition about resistance debuffs.

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, aethereal said:

Unfortunately, like all debuffs, there's sort of a catch 22 where the things that you most need the help against are least affected by the debuffs.

This brings up an interesting point. If some of the -res was made unresistable (with defenders getting a larger chunk of that) it might make the lower overall numbers more palatable to the support focused folks?

 

Honestly I feel the purple patch is a little too harsh on debuffs overall anyway. The recent changes to trick arrow did this kind of thing with the flash arrow change so there is precedent. Just a thought?

[aethereal]

27 minutes ago, Parabola said:

This brings up an interesting point. If some of the -res was made unresistable (with defenders getting a larger chunk of that) it might make the lower overall numbers more palatable to the support focused folks?

 

Does unresistable even affect purple patch reductions in values?  I'm not clear.

 

Anyway, unresistable on resistance debuffs creates the whole Defense Debuff dynamic where resist debuffs become massively better on high-resistance characters than low-resistance characters, which is not, I think, a great dynamic.

[Parabola]

25 minutes ago, aethereal said:

 

Does unresistable even affect purple patch reductions in values?  I'm not clear.

 

Anyway, unresistable on resistance debuffs creates the whole Defense Debuff dynamic where resist debuffs become massively better on high-resistance characters than low-resistance characters, which is not, I think, a great dynamic.

I thought it did but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I follow your second paragraph I'm afraid? It wasn't a seriously thought through suggestion to be honest, it just dropped into my head reading your earlier post. I don't have a problem with the lower -res numbers but some clearly do and I just wondered if this might sweeten the pill.

[Gorgar]

3 hours ago, arcane said:

(1) “hard targets” are a tiny fraction of the game. So if those are critical to the argument, of course it’s a buff. In the vast majority of cases Howl is the only -res most of your team is benefiting from.

 

(2) All classes can and do solo. I routinely do better solo DPS on certain corruptors/defenders than on most of my blasters.

For some of us, hard targets are the interesting part of the game.  No one has ever asked me to reroll my dark/sonic to dark/fire so I can take down trash mobs faster.  I took Howl but often leave it out of my attack chain because I’m busy debuffing and stunning a boss with shriek/scream/screech plus my primary.  
 

If I have nothing pressing to do other than damage on my defender, we usually turn the difficulty up or I’ll alt.

 

May not be how you play, but it’s still valid.  So is your approach; nothing wrong with offensive defenders!  They’re fun too, have a thermal/fire that I play very aggressively.  I just want room for both.

[brattycommissar2]

11 minutes ago, Gorgar said:

For some of us, hard targets are the interesting part of the game.  No one has ever asked me to reroll my dark/sonic to dark/fire so I can take down trash mobs faster.  I took Howl but often leave it out of my attack chain because I’m busy debuffing and stunning a boss with shriek/scream/screech plus my primary.  
 

If I have nothing pressing to do other than damage on my defender, we usually turn the difficulty up or I’ll alt.

 

May not be how you play, but it’s still valid.  So is your approach; nothing wrong with offensive defenders!  They’re fun too, have a thermal/fire that I play very aggressively.  I just want room for both.

i know for myself, that i'm so used to trash mobs (on +4x8) going down so fast that like, i mean the difference between me on a blaster sitting there and doing nothing on a good team vs me contributing is like maybe a breath or two difference of clear per mob unless it's like carnies where you have to sit on your thumbs because phase timing? like trash mobs are called trash mobs for a reason, because you blink and they're dead. hard targets are imo definitely the best part of the game, and when i make and run AE arcs with friends, i make sure to include them ( with various gimmicks and whatnot ) to give people that mix of the standard dynasty warriors clear speed for mobs and then actual fights every once in a while

 

honestly REALLY wish paper and radio mishes were updated to make the boss at the end of them into at -least- an EB or something, or OPTIONALLY into it if you don't want it to be mandatory, it's honestly underwhelming that it's just another boss enemy-- but that's also why the best part of doing those papers and radios is bank mishes because then you get things like -game mechanics happening- that actually make team composition matter too instead of a pure personal damage meta, which is again where things like -res actually matters

 

would hate to lose that!

Edited July 18, 2022 by brattycommissar2

[aethereal]

1 hour ago, Parabola said:

I thought it did but I could be wrong. I'm not sure I follow your second paragraph I'm afraid? It wasn't a seriously thought through suggestion to be honest, it just dropped into my head reading your earlier post. I don't have a problem with the lower -res numbers but some clearly do and I just wondered if this might sweeten the pill.

 

So, basically:

 

If you have 0% resist, then you get hit by a 20% resist debuff (a resistable one), then your resistance drops to -20%.  If someone hits you with a 100 damage attack, you take 120 damage, or 20% more than you would've without the resist debuff.

 

If you have a 50% resist, then you get hit by a 20% resist debuff (a resistable one), then because resistance resists resist debuffs, you resist half the debuff (so it's 10%) and your resistance drops to 40%.  If someone hits you with a 100 damage attack, you take 60 damage, or 20% more than you would've without the resistance debuff.

 

If you have a 75% resist, then you get hit by a 20% resist debuff (a resistable one), then because resistance resists resist debuffs, you resist three quarters of the debuff (so it's 5%) and your resistance drops to 70%.  If someone hits you with a 100 damage attack, you take 30 damage, or 20% more than you would've without the resistance debuff.

 

So basically, if you hit someone with a 20% resist debuff, then no matter what their starting resistance is, they take 20% more damage after the debuff than before.  I think that's nice.

 

In contrast, defense debuffs:

 

If you have 0% defense, then you get hit by a 20% defense debuff, then your defense drops to -20%, so an enemy who ordinarily hits you 50% of the time hits you 70% of the time, so you take 40% more damage than you would've without the defense debuff.

 

If you have 20% defense, then you get hit by a 20% defense debuff, then your defense drops to 0%, so an enemy who would hit 50% of the time unaided, and who hits you 30% of the time with your normal defense, is back to 50%, so you take 67% more damage than you would've without the defense debuff.

 

If you have 40% defense, then you get hit by a 20% defense debuff, then youor defense drops to 20%, and you take 200% more damage than you would've without the defense debuff.

 

This is why DDR is such a big deal, and in my opinion it kinda sucks as a game dynamic.  It makes a really sharp line between "extremely high levels of mitigation" and "extremely low levels of mitigation."  So I like the resistance dynamic better.

 

Unresistable resistance debuffs work like defense debuffs.

 

I'm still not sure if the purple patch is technically "resistance" and whether unresistable means "ignores the purple patch" or not.

[Hjarki]

The purple patch does not provide resistance. It merely multiplies/divides the effect by a constant. Even if this were not the case, there is no 'unresistable resist debuff' (at least not any more) because that would be horribly broken against high resist targets.

 

What this means is that, at least in terms of personal dps, Sonic double-dips purple patch penalties. If you're balancing Sonic around doing the same damage as a set like Energy against a +0 target including the -resist effect, this means it would deal about half the damage of Energy against a +4 target.

 

Honestly, a better approach to 'fixing' Sonic might be to just leave Howl as-is and then replace the -resist on all other attacks with other theme-appropriate debuffs (-damage, knockback, etc.). Then you could just balance the entire set - excluding Howl - to deal damage like a normal damage set.

[Sovera]

Pylon test with the same Sonic/Bio Sentinel under the new patch:

 

5:13

 

Previously 5:43.

 

 

Also tried including the nuke into the rotation and the times went down to:

 

4:30

4:35

 

 

Definitely worth including the nuke even for the ST rotation. I did not include the nuke in the previous patch test to compare.

[brattycommissar2]

honestly the changes in build 2 of the beta patch are great to see. am i 100% satisfied and on board now? no, but like, 80 to 90% now, honestly! no longer requiring so many power picks for max -res is great! the higher than before ( still less than live, but that's expected at this point ) -res ceiling is great! love the changes. if this version went to live, i'd probably still be willing to use sonic. i wouldn't like it near as much still, but i don't think it'd be effectively ruined for support focused defenders with it. honestly, at this point, if they just either made the stacking -res portions a bit more, or let them stack a lil more. yeah that'd still be worse but for what everything else is being thrown in and it being better for use as a blast set? i'd stan that version for use in live 100% even if i'd still grumble at my own personal loss of -res from it

 

even the fact that whiny defenders like myself have been listened to at all, though, is really nice. and i know it must've gotten annoying on SOME level. thanks devs for putting up with us!

[Troo]

On 7/12/2022 at 11:04 AM, The Curator said:

Build 1 verbiage preserved in spoiler block, below.

 

this is super helpful, thank you.

[Marshal_General]

Just curious, under patch v2, who has the best version of sonic? I have only been playing around with the sentinel version on test.

[brattycommissar2]

12 hours ago, brattycommissar2 said:

honestly the changes in build 2 of the beta patch are great to see. am i 100% satisfied and on board now? no, but like, 80 to 90% now, honestly! no longer requiring so many power picks for max -res is great! the higher than before ( still less than live, but that's expected at this point ) -res ceiling is great! love the changes. if this version went to live, i'd probably still be willing to use sonic. i wouldn't like it near as much still, but i don't think it'd be effectively ruined for support focused defenders with it. honestly, at this point, if they just either made the stacking -res portions a bit more, or let them stack a lil more. yeah that'd still be worse but for what everything else is being thrown in and it being better for use as a blast set? i'd stan that version for use in live 100% even if i'd still grumble at my own personal loss of -res from it

 

even the fact that whiny defenders like myself have been listened to at all, though, is really nice. and i know it must've gotten annoying on SOME level. thanks devs for putting up with us!

actually i'm beginning to wonder- since i only read the changes and haven't tested them- if it's actually reasonable to use both defender primary moves AND maintain that -res, because that duration isn't much... gonna have to test that today, because if you can't reasonably maintain -res AND do other defender business then i completely revoke all i've said here about being okay with it tbh

 

edit: it's DOABLE but it's HECTIC and tbh it feels good in bursts but idk how i'd feel with it being like that long term? i do wish that maybe the stack lasted a lil bit longer so it's not quite as 'aaaaaaaa must never stop clicking powers or this debuff goes away'? it feels really close to Perfectly Fine TBH but isn't QUITE there for me

 

edit 2: to clarify exactly what i think would make it hit the mark for what i'd like ( for all that matters, as a support focused defender )- let the -res stacks last a lil longer and let people get one more stack of it. i think that'd be better than boosting how much -res you get from a stack. that way it's slightly easier to maintain, and if people really want to push it into that full on hectic feeling above they still can and get a lil more out of it from doing so since it feels like i'm not getting QUITE enough for the effort? and that'd be it.

Edited July 19, 2022 by brattycommissar2