issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[oedipus_tex]

2 minutes ago, Burk said:

 

The suppression starts at the moment the mezz is broken, not at the moment you get mezzed.

 

 

If that's the case I'd prefer no extra lockout time at all. 8 seconds is an eternity and folks are correct, that would keep you perma-detoggled in a lot of situations.

[WindDemon21]

31 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

 

If that's the case I'd prefer no extra lockout time at all. 8 seconds is an eternity and folks are correct, that would keep you perma-detoggled in a lot of situations.

Yep, and again, buff toggles don't have this at ALL, seems kinda an extra opposition for these to have it especially when they're already affected by the purple patch, resistances, to hit checks on some, and mob placement.

 

I would honestly not bat an eye at there being zero suppression at all and the game still being fine, but if you wanna factor animation time (not recharge time cause tbh they shouldn't have recharges as a toggle anyway and becomes negligible usually as well), considering LOTS should have lower cast times from what they have now too anyway, I think 3 seconds to average over all plus allowing you an attack or two during would be fair enough. (Also acknowledging that while it's nice to be able to attack, it is unfair to also take away a players precedence to preferably cast the toggle first instead of attacking, and that there isn't always a better "first action" power besides a toggle like with hurricane/rad infection like in the current version)

 

Again, the goal of this change SHOULD be to make it BETTER for squishies without mez protection who get mezzed, not to just create a different mechanic with its own flaws. Since any toggle should have 1-1.5s max cast time anyway, and some combos do, but most have two or under two offensive toggles, 3 seconds of suppression would be the most fair value.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Burk said:

 

The suppression starts at the moment the mezz is broken, not at the moment you get mezzed.

Technically it happens the moment you are mezzed, but the 8s timer is refreshed on every server tick that you're mezzed. So you are suppressed while mezzed and then for 8s after

[oedipus_tex]

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Technically it happens the moment you are mezzed, but the 8s timer is refreshed on every server tick that you're mezzed. So you are suppressed while mezzed and then for 8s after

 

 

Thanks for that clarification. 🙂

 

I'm in favor of dropping the 8 seconds of suppression entirely. You're already losing the capabilities of the power for the entirety of the mezz duration. I don't feel like most of these powers are strong enough to warrant them not immediately re-activating as soon as you're released. Other debuffs don't cancel just because the caster got mezzed; enemies don't suddenly lose their -ToHit debuffs from Fearsome Stare if the caster gets mezzed + 8 seconds. Losing the debuff just for the moments of the mezz is already punishment enough IMO.

 

Thanks again to the team for the opportunity to comment and their attention to this system. I look forward to seeing where this mechanic ends up.

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

Other debuffs don't cancel just because the caster got mezzed

Other powers do have cancelation flags if an event happens (such as being mezzed). I don't know if critters carry those effects, but I see it in player powers. 

[Kataklysm]

here to resonate I would like the 8 second wait time to be dropped to say 5 or 6 otherwise I love this! seems to be working as intended.

[oedipus_tex]

1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Other powers do have cancelation flags if an event happens (such as being mezzed). I don't know if critters carry those effects, but I see it in player powers. 

 

 

In my experience usually those flags refer to toggle powers that suppress rather than detoggle. For example, the defenses in Super Reflexes cancel out if the caster is mezzed. Of course that happens only rarely since most SR players are mezzed protected most of the time. It does impact armors on squishies quite a bit, though.

What's more rare is powers where an active effect gets cancelled after the fact. The only examples I can think of are click Stealth powers, with the exception of one Blaster power where a Hold can get cancelled by the target receiving damage. There may be a handful more I haven't thought of, but debuff powers generally last their stated duration... and I can't think of a situation offhand where a debuff cancels itself because of something happening to the caster. Most of the time, if there is a cancellation, it because something happens to the target. Death being, of course, the ultimate debuff canceller. 😄

 

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, oedipus_tex said:

What's more rare is powers where an active effect gets cancelled after the fact

Combat teleport is another, but as of now we're going into unhelpful discussion for a feedback thread so I'll bow out. But examples of debuffs dropping when mezzed in game exist in the form of detoggling. Dropped while mezzed and back when off cooldown and recast.

[arthurh35353]

Eh, and then you have suppressed toggle that are target centric. So like Dark Miasma's Darkest Night can be suppressed for 8 seconds and then toggle dropped as someone killed the anchor, thereby triggering the recharge timer.

 

That can't happen when it's a self toggle (like some armor toggles), so maybe the rule needs a small tweak for them for the self only on 'on target'?

[brass_eagle]

9 hours ago, Burk said:

 

You did miss a number of blaster manipulation toggles, notably Fire Manipulation does have two: Cauterizing Aura and Hot Feet. But still, Controllers are the one to look at most.

Hot Feet is there. Cauterizing Aura doesn't turn off with Mez I believe. It is the standard sustain for Fire Manipulation. Same thing for Frigid Protection and Dynamo. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think they do. The only one I'm super unsure about is Reaction Time. Can probably test again later.

 

EDIT (~30 minutes after post):

 

I did test Cauterizing Aura on Brainstorm server. Even with the O-toggle suppression and suspension rules AND the regular defensive toggle suppression rules, Cauterizing Aura was not affected by mez. I do not have a character on live with it to test but it was always my understanding Blaster sustains (even offensive ones) won't de-toggle. In the picture below you can see my test character held. You can also see the heal tick going off (behind the target reticle) and the recovery boost still in effect. I tried multiple times with the same results, and was held for a few seconds when this snap was taken.

 

I'm going to assume the same is true for the other Blaster offensive sustains and just leave them off the O-Toggle stats, unless someone has knowledge of them de-toggling on live--Dynamo, Frigid Protection, Reaction Time. Might miss one or two.

 

Take-away: Offensive toggled blaster sustains shouldn't be considered for this change.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by brass_eagle
Additional testing.

[brass_eagle]

9 hours ago, Carnifax said:

<blurb>

• Bug : Lifegiving Spores is still shutting off, not supressing. It's a toggle, it's (allegedly) offensive. It should supress. Although personally I think it should be treated as a Defensive Toggle and just supress while mezzed and then come immediately back once out. 

<blurb>

 

Hey that's weird. I don't have Lifegiving Spores on my Nature, so I'm glad you caught that. +1 it should be a defensive toggle. Though it may be considered a pet--Not sure on that. Captain Powerhouse mentioned earlier toggled pets like Voltaic Sentinel will take some extra steps.

Edited July 15, 2022 by brass_eagle

[Sylapsis]

I'm going to throw myself into the whimsy of hyperbole for a moment, but...
For me? This is one of the greatest quality of life changes since they merged Yellow and Green Line!
I don't mind 8 seconds at all (or whatever it ends up being). I just don't want to have to manually re-toggle everything (possibly being rooted with animations) whenever one of my poor squishlings gets hit by a sleep-stun-hold-etc.
So, thank you for this addition!

[Burk]

1 hour ago, brass_eagle said:

Hot Feet is there. Cauterizing Aura doesn't turn off with Mez I believe. It is the standard sustain for Fire Manipulation. Same thing for Frigid Protection and Dynamo. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think they do. The only one I'm super unsure about is Reaction Time. Can probably test again later.

 

EDIT (~30 minutes after post):

 

I did test Cauterizing Aura on Brainstorm server. Even with the O-toggle suppression and suspension rules AND the regular defensive toggle suppression rules, Cauterizing Aura was not affected by mez. I do not have a character on live with it to test but it was always my understanding Blaster sustains (even offensive ones) won't de-toggle. In the picture below you can see my test character held. You can also see the heal tick going off (behind the target reticle) and the recovery boost still in effect. I tried multiple times with the same results, and was held for a few seconds when this snap was taken.

 

I'm going to assume the same is true for the other Blaster offensive sustains and just leave them off the O-Toggle stats, unless someone has knowledge of them de-toggling on live--Dynamo, Frigid Protection, Reaction Time. Might miss one or two.

 

Take-away: Offensive toggled blaster sustains shouldn't be considered for this change.

 

 

I just assumed Cauterizing Aura was included because I don't have a blaster with Fire Manip and City of Data has the "Target Requires: (source.EventTimeSince>Held > 8 ) && (source.EventTimeSince>Sleep > 8 ) && (source.EventTimeSince>Stunned > 8 ) && (source>kStealthRadius < 36)" condition.

 

 

28 minutes ago, brass_eagle said:

 

Hey that's weird. I don't have Lifegiving Spores on my Nature, so I'm glad you caught that. +1 it should be a defensive toggle.

 

Lifegiving Spores spawns a pet like Voltaic Sentinel. I think it was stated that would be a very different kind of tech.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Burk
Forum changed my text to emotes....

[Stormwalker]

At first, I was witholding comment on this subject because I don't play Controllers, I only have one Dominator, and I only have one Defender.  So I figured I'd let those with more stake in the game discuss it.

 

Then I realized that this will affect my Ice/Ice blaster, with her Frigid Protection, which is pretty much her lifeblood.  Having that toggle off for 8 seconds after a mez is very likely to be deadly - and it's the only offensive toggle she has.  Frankly, I'd rather deal with having to manually retoggle it than have to wait an entire rodeo ride for it to reactivate (and trying to survive those 8 seconds might be just about as hectic, too).

 

I like the idea of offensive toggle suppression, but the timer should definitely be shorter.  A lot shorter.  Or else it's a net nerf for most players.

[Troo]

22 hours ago, Bopper said:

I then factored in the cast time and cooldowns of each toggle in these sets.

 

cool downs don't currently start when de-toggled? (I don't know, I'm asking)

 

edit: oops I thought I was on the last page, this may have been answered.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Troo
sry

[Bopper]

Just now, Troo said:

 

cool downs don't currently start when de-toggled? (I don't know I'm asking)

They do, and I factored that in.

[kingsmidgens]

Thought:

Make defensive portions of toggles unsuppress immediately.  The DoT/Debuff on the Blaster or Tanker Sustains can be suppressed longer but I think the defensive portions should reactivate sooner.

"Longer" I think should be 4s at most.  I'm not entirely sure why the timer is set to the absolute maximum which is a super edge case - can we not just get something that's on the border of a buff?

[Stormwalker]

4 minutes ago, kingsmidgens said:

Thought:

Make defensive portions of toggles unsuppress immediately.  The DoT/Debuff on the Blaster or Tanker Sustains can be suppressed longer but I think the defensive portions should reactivate sooner.

"Longer" I think should be 4s at most.  I'm not entirely sure why the timer is set to the absolute maximum which is a super edge case - can we not just get something that's on the border of a buff?

 

For some Blaster sustains (Frigid Protection comes to mind) the debuff is the part that keeps you alive.

 

I mean, the +regen on it is nice, but without the Slow you're still going to die really fast.  Which would make this still a pretty major nerf.

[WindDemon21]

55 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

At first, I was witholding comment on this subject because I don't play Controllers, I only have one Dominator, and I only have one Defender.  So I figured I'd let those with more stake in the game discuss it.

 

Then I realized that this will affect my Ice/Ice blaster, with her Frigid Protection, which is pretty much her lifeblood.  Having that toggle off for 8 seconds after a mez is very likely to be deadly - and it's the only offensive toggle she has.  Frankly, I'd rather deal with having to manually retoggle it than have to wait an entire rodeo ride for it to reactivate (and trying to survive those 8 seconds might be just about as hectic, too).

 

I like the idea of offensive toggle suppression, but the timer should definitely be shorter.  A lot shorter.  Or else it's a net nerf for most players.

Keep in mind, at current, they already have the code for offensive toggles to suppress when mezzed, with zero additional suppression once the mez breaks on the blaster sustains. Dynamo, Frigid, Reaction Time, Cauterizing Aura, and works this way for all defensive armors and toggles as well, and they nowhere near break the game.

 

Also to note that the coding exists, just extend the powers it's for to include all offensive toggles. This would be a defacto nerf on those blaster sustains if it has ANY post-mez suppression. Just another thing to keep in mind if they're going to add the post-mez suppression with the live rollout.

[brass_eagle]

3 hours ago, Burk said:

 

I just assumed Cauterizing Aura was included because I don't have a blaster with Fire Manip and City of Data has the "Target Requires: (source.EventTimeSince>Held > 8 ) && (source.EventTimeSince>Sleep > 8 ) && (source.EventTimeSince>Stunned > 8 ) && (source>kStealthRadius < 36)" condition.

 

 

 

Lifegiving Spores spawns a pet like Voltaic Sentinel. I think it was stated that would be a very different kind of tech.

 

Honestly, all valid points I would make. But glad that that it could be straightened out because I doubted my knowledge.  Challenge AND questions makes us better.❤️

 

Though I don't get:

 

"Lifegiving Spores spawns a pet like Voltaic Sentinel. I think it was stated that would be a very different kind of tech." --

 

This was posited in the post you quoted?? In the next sentence...

Edited July 15, 2022 by brass_eagle

[brass_eagle]

3 hours ago, Bopper said:

They do, and I factored that in.

All of this is with a "2 second mez time". Also to keep in mind. @Troo 2 seconds is not reality.

 

Assumptions are incredibly important here.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by brass_eagle

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, kingsmidgens said:

Make defensive portions of toggles unsuppress immediately.  The DoT/Debuff on the Blaster or Tanker Sustains can be suppressed longer but I think the defensive portions should reactivate sooner

Did you test whether or not sustains are being suppressed? If so, which powers were you testing where you saw the regen/heal/absorb/recovery go away? If you are seeing that, it likely isn't intended. 

[GM Crumpet]

Speaking as a player and not as a GM I like this. I often skip offence toggles because much of the time I find it really irritating to have to reactivate them after they go down, and often in the heat of a fight I don't notice they stop until quite a while after. Or they go down, I turn them on, they immediately go down again. Personally I'd quite like the suppression time to be shorter, maybe 4 or 5 seconds, but I'm not going to complain. My builds will change considerably on some of my alts as I like the offense toggles, I just didn't like the fact they went off completely.

 

 

[golstat2003]

I would prefer if the suppression were reduced to 2-3 seconds maxed for all the other reasons (and test feedback given) already stated. 

[brass_eagle]

5 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

For some Blaster sustains (Frigid Protection comes to mind) the debuff is the part that keeps you alive.

 

I mean, the +regen on it is nice, but without the Slow you're still going to die really fast.  Which would make this still a pretty major nerf.

 

See some tests I did a few posts earlier. Blaster sustains (even with offensive aspects) don't detoggle on live or on test. Blaster sustains are in a different category. They are considered essential defense toggles. The effects persist through mez. (at least for Cauterizing Aura). 

 

You shouldn't worry about blaster sustain!! Hope that helps. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by brass_eagle