issue 27 Focused Feedback: Toggle Suspension and Suppression

[Lyrium]

On 8/8/2022 at 5:29 AM, Omega-202 said:

I've never been saved by Darkest Night.  When my Miasma-ists are mezzed and/or low on health, the priority is Twighlight Grasp to refill 1/3 of my health and then pound candy and teleport out of danger.  There's no way using Darkest Night is going to be more effective than that.  

Ditto. In my case, when I'm mezzed my go-to is Fearsome Stare (then TG, probably). And then DN again, if needed at that point. Having it back after 5s for free is definitely an improvement.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Erhnam

[WindDemon21]

31 minutes ago, Erhnam said:

Ditto. In my case, when I'm mezzed my go-to is Fearsome Stare (then TG, probably). And then DN again, if needed at that point. Having it back after 5s for free is definitely an improvement.

Which is also part if not majorly in the fact that it takes so freaking long to activate which should NOT be the case for any offensive toggle. The maximum cast time for any should be 1-1.5s, and then evaluate from there. (Which regardless of this change that should be addressed immediately)

[Lyrium]

11 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Which is also part if not majorly in the fact that it takes so freaking long to activate which should NOT be the case for any offensive toggle. The maximum cast time for any should be 1-1.5s, and then evaluate from there. (Which regardless of this change that should be addressed immediately)

Yes and no. Although I agree that DN has a hellishly long casting time, I'm just too used to rely on FS for...everything. Good debuffing power, very fast effect/cast, and the possibility of just "pseudo-holding" a bunch of enemies... I think it's just a much better power (specially if you are in problems) that DN

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Erhnam said:

Yes and no. Although I agree that DN has a hellishly long casting time, I'm just too used to rely on FS for...everything. Good debuffing power, very fast effect/cast, and the possibility of just "pseudo-holding" a bunch of enemies... I think it's just a much better power (specially if you are in problems) that DN

I'm not disagreeing that it's not a decent power to use, just that it's also not always up when a mez wears off as you usually start with it cast right after you cast DN first, and that it's one of the most clear examples of a set having a useful skill (possibly more than DN) where many others don't have the same type of an effective power to use during this window versus wanting the debuff toggle back on ASAP.

[csr]

On 8/7/2022 at 8:29 PM, Omega-202 said:

You're talking about the 3.42 s Arcanatime power that MIGHT slow down damage enough for you to not get insta dropped? Not a chance! And even if it does help, you really think it makes sense to waste 70% of the proposed toggle suppression window reapplying it?  

 

I've never been saved by Darkest Night.  When my Miasma-ists are mezzed and/or low on health, the priority is Twighlight Grasp to refill 1/3 of my health and then pound candy and teleport out of danger.  There's no way using Darkest Night is going to be more effective than that.  

 

1)  Those debuffs aren't just protecting the user.  They debuff the foes attacking the rest of the team too.  And as the team starts dropping the danger to whomever is left increases.  I may be perfectly safe until that Fire Blaster bites it and all his aggro starts looking for a new home.  It's not all about you.  And it's also not all about Incarnate teams.  At lower levels Darkest Night is often great mitigation.

 

2)  Darkest Night only takes 0.5s to take effect, not 3.432s.  People keep mentioning the Arcana cast time, apparently unaware that the power starts working well before that is finished.  2.9s of DN's activation is just hand waving after the fact.  I believe every one of the powers on that list above starts working at 0.933s or less.

Edited August 10, 2022 by csr

[Omega-202]

17 minutes ago, csr said:

 

1)  Those debuffs aren't just protecting the user.  They debuff the foes attacking the rest of the team too.  And as the team starts dropping the danger to whomever is left increases.  I may be perfectly safe until that Fire Blaster bites it and all his aggro starts looking for a new home.  It's not all about you.  And it's also not all about Incarnate teams.  At lower levels Darkest Night is often great mitigation.

 

2)  Darkest Night only takes 0.5s to take effect, not 3.432s.  People keep mentioning the Arcana cast time, apparently unaware that the power starts working well before that is finished.  2.9s of DN's activation is just hand waving after the fact.  I believe every one of the powers on that list above starts working at 0.933s or less.

1,000s of hours on my Ice/Dark Corruptor does not match your description of events.  

 

1) That Fire Blaster can fend for himself and if not, I'll be there in a few seconds to pick him up with Howling Twilight.  My survival means the team continues fighting.  Sometimes being good support is knowing how to continue fighting so you can continue supporting.  

 

2) I'm very aware of the time to effect.  That doesn't really matter though because you're a sitting duck for over 3 seconds.  Unless you perfectly jousted a jump to cover before activating (eating another 0.5 s to execute the jump), you are just sitting there getting swarmed instead of escaping.  In a do or die situation, healing and escaping is going to save you infinitely more than standing there like a dingus with your arms out.  

 

3) Fearsome Stare is the better mitigation, hands down.  Given the choice, I'm hitting Stare every time.  

[Lyrium]

7 hours ago, csr said:

2)  Darkest Night only takes 0.5s to take effect, not 3.432s.  People keep mentioning the Arcana cast time, apparently unaware that the power starts working well before that is finished.  2.9s of DN's activation is just hand waving after the fact.  I believe every one of the powers on that list above starts working at 0.933s or less.

I was not aware of that! but regardless, I think FS would still be my goto 

[csr]

On 8/8/2022 at 2:42 PM, Omega-202 said:

So at worst, for 2/3 of the impacted powers, you may be losing out on 2.X seconds of effect from those toggles when factoring in the proposed 5 second suppression

7 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

2) I'm very aware of the time to effect.  That doesn't really matter though because you're a sitting duck for over 3 seconds.

 

These two statements are inconsistent.  If you were very aware of the time to effect then why did you state that you'd be losing 2.X seconds of effect instead of the correct 4.X seconds?  The second part of the second statement about being a sitting duck for over 3 seconds (instead of the 0.5s it takes for DN to kick in) also belies that claimed awareness.  Oh well, not important.

 

I would agree that Fearsome Stare is often a better choice than DN for #1 priority for a Dark Corr, but not always.  It's recharge is 4 times that of DN, it takes nearly twice as long to take effect, it is a 30 deg cone which requires you to back up to hit much of a spawn if they've closed in, it doesn't debuff DAM (-30% on a Corr is not trivial) and it doesn't Terrorize Bosses or higher.  But in any case this change isn't only about Dark Miasma on non-Controllers.  There are sets that don't have better mitigation options than their debuff toggles.  Yes, you can do other things instead, but you can already do every one of those things on Live now.  The only gain is the eventual saved toggle activation time and effort.  And there is a point there I don't think anyone has brought up:  Many debuff toggles are anchored on foes and expire when that foe's body derezzes.  Which means you end up having to retoggle them again in the not too distant future anyway.  So those anchored debuffs are really in a different class than the always on ones which pretty much universally benefit from this change.

 

Anyway, I'll reiterate... at 5s I think the giant heap of very minor QoL improvements from this change are balanced against a small number of sets that are getting a minor nerf.  I use the term "minor" twice deliberately.  This change is a whole lot of "meh" to me and I wonder if it's worth making such a change for that.  As far as I can see Capt P had to add a "Target Requires" expression and a "Target Ignores" tag to every affected power.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by csr

[csr]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:07 AM, Wavicle said:

The more I think about it, the less these arguments make sense.

People are saying the toggle would be ready immediately, as if they've been in a mez for a while and the toggle has already recharged.

Well, if that's true then you SOMEHOW survived the duration of the mez without your toggle on, so I think you can survive for another few seconds without it.

 

You survived the recharge period because the mobs were savaging your teammate(s) [and because you are a Rad Def with AM and Hasten].

 

My estimate for Rad Infection on my top Rad Def is around 2.8s [max(Rech, BF use)+TimeToEffect] on Live and 5.7s (BF use+SuspendDur) on Brainstorm.

 

Another thing I noted in my testing but didn't mention:  Hurricane's debuff lasts 10s.  My Fire/Storm on Live can have it back in action in about 3.4s.  On Brainstorm it's about 5.7s again.  So it actually gets back into action before the debuff wears off in either case.  Yes, Hurricane loses the Repel/KB for a couple of seconds with this change, but that debuff just keeps on giving.  Choking Cloud may also last long enough to do that too.  On the other hand, most of the other debuffs only last 0.75s (with a 0.5s tick rate).  Time's Juncture lasts 1s (and ticks every 0.75s).  Those powers go down and out pretty fast.

Edited August 10, 2022 by csr
Correction on times

[Omega-202]

2 hours ago, csr said:

 

These two statements are inconsistent.  If you were very aware of the time to effect then why did you state that you'd be losing 2.X seconds of effect instead of the correct 4.X seconds?  The second part of the second statement about being a sitting duck for over 3 seconds (instead of the 0.5s it takes for DN to kick in) also belies that claimed awareness.  Oh well, not important.

 

I would agree that Fearsome Stare is often a better choice than DN for #1 priority for a Dark Corr, but not always.  It's recharge is 4 times that of DN, it takes nearly twice as long to take effect, it is a 30 deg cone which requires you to back up to hit much of a spawn if they've closed in, it doesn't debuff DAM (-30% on a Corr is not trivial) and it doesn't Terrorize Bosses or higher.  

You want to get pedantic?  Fearsome stare is a 45 degree cone.  And 0% incoming damage from minions and Lts is nearly always better than 70% damage from everything.  How about instead of nitpicking statements, we just agree to disagree on this point. 

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, csr said:

Another thing I noted in my testing but didn't mention:  Hurricane's debuff lasts 10s.  My Fire/Storm on Live can have it back in action in about 3.4s.  On Brainstorm it's about 5.7s again.  So it actually gets back into action before the debuff wears off in either case.  Yes, Hurricane loses the Repel/KB for a couple of seconds with this change, but that debuff just keeps on giving.  Choking Cloud may also last long enough to do that too.  On the other hand, most of the other debuffs only last 0.75s (with a 0.5s tick rate).  Time's Juncture lasts 1s (and ticks every 0.75s).  Those powers go down and out pretty fast

I had wondered about this but haven't seen any test feedback on it and I had not been around to test it myself. I was under the impression that when you turn off a toggle the effects from that toggle are immediately gone. This is why you shouldn't still be flying for up to 2s after you turn off group fly.

 

Detoggling is effectively deactivating (I would presume) and I would imagine effects from offensive toggles are immediately removed when you're mezzed (and thus, detoggled). Toggle suppression might not be the case. I believe the effects of the offensive toggle will still remain but updates/refreshes are not applied until suppression wears off.

 

It would be a good test to use Power Analyzer on a target and see what happens to the effects of hurricane when you are mezzed on Live versus when you are mezzed on Beta.

[Wavicle]

How long does it take for someone to re-Stealth after being hit if they run away? Is that 5 or 8?

[Omega-202]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

How long does it take for someone to re-Stealth after being hit if they run away? Is that 5 or 8?

Pool stealth is 10.  Stalker Hide is 8.

[Gorgar]

On my dark/sonic defender, if I get mezzed I'm generally reactivating Oppressive Gloom, moving up to and Screeching at the biggest threat nearby, *then* hitting the heal, fear, other toggles.  I don't even use Darkest Night much other than on AV fights.  Overall, for her this is a net nerf, especially since I don't remember any way of telling when OG reactivates, so I'm just guessing if I can stun a boss.  

 

This is probably a great change for some, and possibly even most of my characters, but on the most important character, it's something I'd really love to turn off.  

[dtj714]

And still no dev response explaining the change from 8 to 5. Suspension is a major QoL change and a no-brainer. Can we just get that for now while you continue to wrestle with Suppression?

[Wavicle]

6 hours ago, dtj714 said:

And still no dev response explaining the change from 8 to 5. Suspension is a major QoL change and a no-brainer. Can we just get that for now while you continue to wrestle with Suppression?

Explaining? They were convinced that 8 was too long, so they lowered it to 5. What more explanation is required?

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Wavicle said:

Explaining? They were convinced that 8 was too long, so they lowered it to 5. What more explanation is required?

Well for starters why they think when debuffs are already affected by the purple patch, resistances, radii, higher end costs, and for most target issues moving away, dying etc, that they should also even need to be suppressed compared to defensive toggles...

 

In lieu of that as well, again 5s is still too long of a suppression, 4 is the absolute max, but still hinders most sets. We still need to look at mez as a whole on squishies. More protection options, a MEZ suppression so you're not perma or chain mezzed, and resistances to matter more by upping the values from bonuses etc.

[dtj714]

3 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Explaining? They were convinced that 8 was too long, so they lowered it to 5. What more explanation is required?

Uh, the reason they chose 5s? We know why they originally chose 8s (because it supposedly corresponded to 4 toggles, which was a ridiculous baseline). But we don’t know if 5s was an arbitrary reduction, or if it relates to a new “baseline” of 2 toggles, or if it’s something else. Luminaria made an extensive analysis that seems to fit, but that’s still just a guess.

 

If they truly want productive discussion and feedback, then they should say why 5s so we can know what factors they are considering. Otherwise, people are just spewing their opinions. 

[Wavicle]

31 minutes ago, dtj714 said:

Uh, the reason they chose 5s? We know why they originally chose 8s (because it supposedly corresponded to 4 toggles, which was a ridiculous baseline). But we don’t know if 5s was an arbitrary reduction, or if it relates to a new “baseline” of 2 toggles, or if it’s something else. Luminaria made an extensive analysis that seems to fit, but that’s still just a guess.

 

If they truly want productive discussion and feedback, then they should say why 5s so we can know what factors they are considering. Otherwise, people are just spewing their opinions. 

given that Re-Hiding and Re-Stealthing take 8 or 10 seconds, 5 seems fine to me.

[Luminara]

40 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

given that Re-Hiding and Re-Stealthing take 8 or 10 seconds, 5 seems fine to me.

 

The functionality of Hide/Stealth is entirely different in this context.  Hide allows crits.  Stealth gives players the opportunity to optimize the conditions of an imminent combat situation in their favor.  They're not improving the player's survivability, they're improving the player's combat effectiveness.  Moreover, they're binary.  Hiding or Stealthing isn't a "chance to" not be spotted (yes, some critters have higher Perception, many Stealth powers have a lower than melee range Stealth radius, but that doesn't change the fact that they're binary).  They don't reduce the enemy hit roll unless there's a +Def value attached to the power (before you jump on that, check the +Def on Stealth IOs).  They don't reduce enemy damage output.  They don't perform a hit check, they don't give critters a XX% chance to see the character, they don't check versus a "chance to" to determine whether critters are affected.

 

Toggle damage mitigation is not a combat effectiveness tool, it's a survivability tool, and it's not binary in that context.  It doesn't guarantee an outcome when used.  The enemy affected by a ToHit debuff toggle can still land an attack.  The enemy with a Damage debuff toggle affecting it doesn't deal 0 damage.  The enemy standing in the control PBAoE toggle radius isn't guaranteed to be mezzed.  And toggle damage mitigation doesn't directly improve a player's combat effectiveness.  There are no crits granted by Snow Storm.  Time's Juncture doesn't give a player the ability to sneak into the center of a spawn for optimal positioning, or waltz to the last room in a mission with zero aggro.  Lightning Field doesn't force the AI to break combat momentarily so the player can gain a sudden advantage mid-combat.

 

Comparing functionally different things simply because they happen to be toggles is like comparing a moped to an M1 Abrams.

[Wavicle]

5 hours ago, Luminara said:

 

The functionality of Hide/Stealth is entirely different in this context.  Hide allows crits.  Stealth gives players the opportunity to optimize the conditions of an imminent combat situation in their favor.  They're not improving the player's survivability, they're improving the player's combat effectiveness.  Moreover, they're binary.  Hiding or Stealthing isn't a "chance to" not be spotted (yes, some critters have higher Perception, many Stealth powers have a lower than melee range Stealth radius, but that doesn't change the fact that they're binary).  They don't reduce the enemy hit roll unless there's a +Def value attached to the power (before you jump on that, check the +Def on Stealth IOs).  They don't reduce enemy damage output.  They don't perform a hit check, they don't give critters a XX% chance to see the character, they don't check versus a "chance to" to determine whether critters are affected.

 

Toggle damage mitigation is not a combat effectiveness tool, it's a survivability tool, and it's not binary in that context.  It doesn't guarantee an outcome when used.  The enemy affected by a ToHit debuff toggle can still land an attack.  The enemy with a Damage debuff toggle affecting it doesn't deal 0 damage.  The enemy standing in the control PBAoE toggle radius isn't guaranteed to be mezzed.  And toggle damage mitigation doesn't directly improve a player's combat effectiveness.  There are no crits granted by Snow Storm.  Time's Juncture doesn't give a player the ability to sneak into the center of a spawn for optimal positioning, or waltz to the last room in a mission with zero aggro.  Lightning Field doesn't force the AI to break combat momentarily so the player can gain a sudden advantage mid-combat.

 

Comparing functionally different things simply because they happen to be toggles is like comparing a moped to an M1 Abrams.

 

Comparing toggle debuffs to Armor (as you're doing) is equally incorrect. There are very, very few toggle debuffs that are "make or break" in the way you are suggesting. There's Entangling Aura, Choking Cloud, that's about it. Getting the toggle -ToHit debuffs back up in 5 seconds instead of 3 seconds is not going to destroy anyone's build, though yes they might have to shift tactics slightly.

That's what this really comes down to, the people complaining are saying "I HAVE to do this the way I've always been or else I am NERFED and I will die repeatedly", but they are wrong. They don't HAVE to do it that way, and a couple more seconds before their toggle is available again is not going to kill them unless they have bigger problems to address.

[dtj714]

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

given that Re-Hiding and Re-Stealthing take 8 or 10 seconds, 5 seems fine to me.

Thanks again for your opinion. Now, can we get some actual rationale from the devs?

[Wavicle]

They did, maybe it just didn't satisfy you, but they did.

[Wavicle]

7 hours ago, Luminara said:

Comparing functionally different things simply because they happen to be toggles is like comparing a moped to an M1 Abrams.

 

In fact you completely missed the point. I'm NOT comparing things because they are toggles. I was comparing two different forms of suppression caused by NPCs.

[Luminara]

1 minute ago, Wavicle said:

Comparing toggle debuffs to Armor (as you're doing) is equally incorrect.

 

I didn't.  I pointed out the functional difference between powers which allow players to crit or position for optimal attack, with powers which improve their survivability.  Had I been comparing "armor" to debuffs, I would've reiterated what I said several pages ago, when I did directly compare the limitations of offensive toggles with the lack of limitations on self-affecting toggles.  I can do that now, if you've forgotten, or if you'd like to throw another wild presumption out for me to demolish with facts.

 

And none of what you're saying now is relevant to the post to which I responded.  You claimed that it's perfectly fine for offensive toggles to be nerfed because Hide/Stealth have a delayed reactivation.  That doesn't matter.  It doesn't matter because critters see through Hide/Stealth when they're aggroed.  It doesn't matter if you're out of combat long enough for Hide/Stealth to resume if you still have aggro because the critters which are aggroed on you don't drop aggro.  Hide/Stealth aren't "armor", they're pre-combat positioning tools, combat avoidance tools, and Hide is a tool for bonus spike damage.  It's not a data point of any pertinence to the topic, that topic being debuff/control toggles which aid the character in staying upright long enough to finish the fight.  You simply jumped on the Hide/Stealth delay period as a talking point and made a completely fallacious claim that they were comparable.  They aren't, in the same way Darkest Night isn't comparable to Incandescent Strike.  Those powers may both have a 3.432s animation time, but they have different purposes and functions.

 

17 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

That's what this really comes down to, the people complaining are saying "I HAVE to do this the way I've always been or else I am NERFED

 

It is a nerf.  We previously had control over our offensive toggles, now we don't.  We could decide to turn a toggle back on immediately, now we can't.  We could choose to activate a different offensive toggle, one which we weren't using, now we can't.  We could opt to leave the toggles off, now we have to stop and turn them off ourselves because they'll come back on even if we don't want them.  We have reduced survivability and less flexibility, in exchange for... not having to press a key to turn a toggle back on.  That's a nerf, and deliberately misrepresenting people as being short-sighted or unwilling to adapt when they point out that it's a nerf doesn't change the fact that it is a nerf.