issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[Coyotedancer]

4 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

 

I mean, there's your answer one post right above your question.

 

 

Their experience is *very* different from what I've seen... I'll just leave it at that.

[EPGAH2]

32 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

Ooooof.  Just to add: This is really not good for the future health of sustaining the CoH community, let alone growing it.

How is this "not good for the future health"? People have limited time now (not that it was ever unlimited, but some started the game in their teens when other concerns were substantially less), so doing whatever is fastest--and not having to run across several Zones--makes more sense.

What is "better" about regular missions? Why should that be the "correct way"? Please note the whole discussion hinges on making AE less attractive, rather than making non-AE MORE attractive, or even less tedious!

Not dialog, that's for sure.
Not convenience, in fact I would say Twinshot goes out of her way to send players out of their way, including to KR before they're high enough.

If people want to Level the most in the least time, nothing can beat AE. If players were given access to /gotomission, that might change. Of course, then people would complain that they're skipping most the zone, ignoring that's explicitly the idea, and those who don't want to can waste time traversing Zones.

Just because content exists, does not mean people want to do it. How many people want to do the Jonathan St. John Smythe Arc? Or even know about it? And if we do feel like going back and doing lowbie arcs, there is Oro. But not everyone is a completionist of that scale. Some only do the ones required for Accolades, some just jump right into RWZ raids.

 

What AE do you do that you get all 6 Incarnates T4 in 5 hours? I had all 6 Incarnates T1 in 1 day, and I thought I was doing great.

[Troo]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

Personally, I think they should keep vet levels in the AE. But reduce the XP so that AE farms match regular content for vet leveling speed. This way the people who like to farm can continue to do so, and people who like to play regular content can continue to do so. (No-one will be encouraged to farm vet levels in AE because it will not longer be the best way to get them. It will be as good as everywhere else.)

 

So you don't want to nerf AE farms, you want to drop a bomb on it.

 

When taking into account convenience, concentration of targets, and customization.. rewards for AE would have to be much less than regular content to account for speed.

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Troo
added 'much' as they are currently a little less

[EPGAH2]

3 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

So you don't want to nerf AE farms, you want to drop a bomb on it.

 

When taking into account convenience, concentration of targets, and customization.. rewards for AE would have to be less than regular content to account for speed.

 

This unfortunately. And again, it would do ZILCH to make regular missions any less tedious or more attractive.

[Troo]

1 minute ago, EPGAH2 said:

This unfortunately. And again, it would do ZILCH to make regular missions any less tedious or more attractive.

 

So you'd AE even if the rewards were less than regular content?

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

So you don't want to nerf AE farms, you want to drop a bomb on it.

 

When taking into account convenience, concentration of targets, and customization.. rewards for AE would have to be less than regular content to account for speed.

 

They already are lower (do a Harvey demon farm and see for yourself), they would just have to be… lowerer.

 

I support Angel’s proposition. Less is better than nothing.

[The_Warpact]

Ok as an avid AFK farmer...5 hours is just fvcking ridiculous even I have an issue with that.

It takes me roughly a week to afk a farm to what these people are doing in 5 hours. So if this is the root of the issue then yeah I agree.

But, taking vet rewards away are just bad, this not only penalizes farmers but also people playing AE for content.

There has to be another solution than taking a hammer to honest farmers and content players.

5 hours...fvck me running thats nuts.

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Ok as an avid AFK farmer...5 hours is just fvcking ridiculous even I have an issue with that.

It takes me roughly a week to afk a farm to what these people are doing in 5 hours. So if this is the root of the issue then yeah I agree.

But, taking vet rewards away are just bad, this not only penalizes farmers but also people playing AE for content.

There has to be another solution than taking a hammer to honest farmers and content players.

5 hours...fvck me running thats nuts.

 

Honestly, I have some questions about where that number came from... Even working as efficiently as I could with my speed-farmer, I don't think I could make that time. Getting someone to 50 with all their slots unlocked in five hours? Yeah. That's easy. Three runs of Fire City ought to get the majority of that done with at least an hour to spare.

 

Getting the iBits to T4 all of those slots? That's more of a challenge. 

 

Having some experience with getting my support characters' iToys that way, it takes quite a few more runs to get the resources to build six T4s. You'd have to have a farmer a heck of a lot faster than Harry to pull that plus the leveling off in five hours. I'd love to see that build to find out what I'm apparently doing wrong. 😝 

[Darmian]

One of the issues with removing the Fetch/Fedex things is there is a desire to maintain some continuity with the OG game, so if any version of a remove was planned I think it would be on a case by case basis, looking at the most egregious versions of those things.

[ExeErdna]

2 minutes ago, Darmian said:

One of the issues with removing the Fetch/Fedex things is there is a desire to maintain some continuity with the OG game, so if any version of a remove was planned I think it would be on a case by case basis, looking at the most egregious versions of those things.

 

The only problem was when you had to pop into AP and it lags for other zones it's no problem. They might finally spread out a bit since I've had my game crash a few times zoning in when running some TF's. They legit fixed that problem.

Personally what's happening with AE here should be put on the backburner to see how people react with the AE in AP being gone first. If that makes people play more DFB's that's basically the goal completed. It matters not what a 50 do with their time.

[Gadzookery]

I feel this has descended into bickering with nothing substancial at this point. Its just people who personally like farming who think the sky is falling vs people who personally dont like farming and are finding "justifiable" reasons to get rid of it. Its just dictating player preference at the end of the day and I feel its just ignorant at this point because they're depicting farmers as lazy people who don't care about the game or don't play it at all, and JUST farm which is never the case. Even after multiple people say "I power level because I dont have time to level due to my life at the moment but wish to enjoy the game by still participating in the combat, making character, making good builds, chatting with friends as I farm, challenging myself woith farms, RPing (a lot of people farm/power level so they have a good character to go on AEs and mission with with their SG, or have enough powers to demonstrate their power level), or just simply power levelling to max so they can do end game content which they prefer but again, dont have the time to level all the way there. ALL these reasons have been explained and for people like Skoryy to go "lol just play the game bro you're here to play an MMO stop being lazy" as if doing any of the prior stuff I listed ISN'T playing the MMO and the only "correct" way to play the MMO is purely do missions and tips and nothing else is quite frankly ignorant. Same for the person way earlier who went "Its time to explore the city guys, its time to go out" as if all farmers do is sit in AE the WHOLE time is again, very ignorant. And when people give you their justified reasons as to why they do farming, to just discard that and stubbornly remain in your position that they're not "Really" playing the game and farming content is some weird random asspull reason as to why new players leave this game for FF14 and not because its a private server of an almost 20 year old dead game in comparison to a live server of an actively updated modern MMO is just being shitty.

 

At the same time, the sky isn't falling. This isn't gonna kill farming, and GMs don't intend to kill farmers, nor do they have anything against farming content or are trying to dictate how people play (unlike some in this thread) I think it was just poor communication on the GM's part as they did not explain their reasoning for the nerfs and removals. Which to be honest they should have as it lead to this, and more importantly it lead to people, including me being left to speculate. However if you play the test server or look at other things such as the aggro buffs. It makes sense. Aggro buffs mean that fire farmers are even more powerful and the XP rate grows even faster as thats more mobs being defeated in a shorter amount of time. I believe the devs intended to nerf farming so that missions arent made obsolete and farming isnt SO good that its pointless not to farm. However at the same time they should have explained that instead of leaving it out in the open for people to speculate and eventually argue.

 

At the end of the day, people should be allowed to farm as thats how they enjoy the game. Thats their entertainment. And it's harmless. However, it should not be so good that it makes the rest of the game obsolete.

People should also be allowed to mission as thats how they enjoy the game. Thats their entertainment and its harmless. However, it should not be the only way to play the game as CoH is about variety and thats part of its attraction. Another part is also the casual nature of CoH, and how easy it is to get into, how easy it is to feel powerful, how easy it is to level, and how theres very little grind. It makes it the perfect drop in and out MMO, you feel like you're not missing out. That casual nature makes it an excellent MMO for those with time constraints and a busy life, compared to other MMOs. We need to keep that casual nature, that easy to get into the game nature, not make the game more grindy.

 

More importantly we need to respect how others play and stop saying its the wrong way to play, as all they're doing is having a good time. Saying random snide remarks like "Actually go out into the city and explore the city for once" implying that they never have, isn't gonna suddenly make that farmer hate farming. It's just gonna piss them off. And if your intention is to piss them off then that says something about you more than them.

 

I think at this point the devs are very much aware lots of people people aren't a fan of the change, and have received that feedback.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Gadzookery

[TrelNargil]

   Sigh...
   Ok, I am sure the Dev's are shaking their collective heads here seeing 17 pages on this topic and all, considering what has been said ad nauseum over and over again, as this is suppose to be a Focused Feedback thread here (for the most part, which is why I like that @Marbing summed it all up nicely on page 16, so I will basically say this. I am a old man, who has gamed since the dawn of computers, and over the last 17-18 years the culture of gaming has changed BIG time. This of course is a byproduct of Real Life changes in the world, people, and in culture as well, and as such it is no surprise to me that it has affected  CoH as it has.

   Everyone, and everything these days, whether in RL or GL must be done as fast as possible, even when it doesn't "have" to be; that's just a fact. We are in the time's of "I want my cookie, and I want it NOW dag nabbit!!!". Now do you, me, and everyone have a right to that attitude and goal? Absolutely! But is it always for the best, in the long or even short run at times? I don't know; as a old fart, I have lost more brain cells over living then I have gained them lol. Take this for an example... in the hustle and bustle of our lives, how many of us hit the fast food joints in between trying to get everything done we need to the day?

   Most of us at one point or another I am sure. But does that mean that a nice, slow cooked Pot Roast in a crock pot is not the way to go too, or valued in any way? No, again of course not. This is par for the course in today's crazy world, where time is money, and money is time, but for God's sake, it's also good to stop and smell the roses so to speak too. Which leads to AE yet again... This change has NOT killed anything people! It has only (to put it in driving terms) changed the speed limit from 120mph, to like 75mph instead. It has not destroyed your world, and you will still wake up tomorrow with all the fast food joints around.

   It's just about balance is all, in a system that was created 17-18 YEARS ago, in a game that should not even be running, so please, please be thankful for what you got, because one day it WILL be gone, as all things in life eventually do. Time is fleeting after all, and while everyone wants to run speed TF's and do AE content ad nauseum to get their characters to 50+ sometimes, just sometimes it is just nice to chill, spread your arms wide, and thank the stars your alive to play a game that could be long since dead.

   It's gonna take a hell of a lot more than this change to "fix" anything in the game without a total overhaul, because let's face it, fixing issues with a game as old as this is akin to fixing all the coding nightmare that is "Windows", and most of know how impossible that would be these days lol. So take some advice from someone who is at the end of his life, not in the beginning of it at some of you may be; stop the car, get out, and smell the roses and be thankful they are still there...

 

Peace...

[Coyotedancer]

12 minutes ago, arcane said:

I assume something like 6 Fire Brutes and a Kin have to be involved for Angel’s high standard of play. I made a new toon yesterday and got it to vet level 7 and I’m good with that. Especially considering I farmed with just a solo dom yesterday.

 

Good point. I don't multi-box a team... I'd be hitting that challenge with just a solo Claws/Fire/Mu Brute built for MOAR DAMAGE and the one hanger-on.

[DuckTips]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

IMO, the likely reasons for the vet level removal from AE:

• It's currently possible to take a brand new character at level 1 and PL them to vet level 54 (with all six incarnates T4'd) in 5 hours.

 

Dang, I'm an AFK fire farmer on the side and it takes me 40 hours or so to hit vet level 12 spread out over a week or so. Wish I knew what the secret was that the other people were doing.

[Marbing]

6 minutes ago, DuckTips said:

 

Dang, I'm an AFK fire farmer on the side and it takes me 40 hours or so to hit vet level 12 spread out over a week or so. Wish I knew what the secret was that the other people were doing.

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you...

😛

EDIT: But seriously, those numbers being thrown around are top end and usually involve multiple accounts or extremely well oiled toons with very efficient players who have a specific map patterns down extremely well to optimize xp/inf per hour. Not everyone is going to see those results, but even on average results its MUCH quicker than anything outside of AE. I, for example, had one of my toons power-leveled by a friend from 1-50 and then all the way to vet lvl 9 in about 6 hours of total gameplay. Which I don't think is even peak performance. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Marbing

[DuckTips]

1 hour ago, skoryy said:

 

Ooooof.  Just to add: This is really not good for the future health of sustaining the CoH community, let alone growing it.

 

Weird, for me, thats part of why I still play 20 hours a week, plus or minus.

 

I like paper dolls and costumes and builds; and seeing what I can get planned on paper and then making it happen; getting alts in different combos up to Vet 11 to see all the combos and power interactions. I play part of the way up (through the 20s) and PL part of it. THEN that character can be played in whatever content I want at any level I want, and I do. Thats how I like to play, which paper doll in the stable will I play today. I usually play with RL friends, and once a month I'm in the mood to maybe do a mission or two with a stranger. Thats how I play. 

 

Also it takes me WAY more time than 5 hours, I dont know where that number comes from.

 

But since these responses are supposed to be about the main topic, and feedback or alternate suggestions, what about this series of suggestions:

 

1) Nobody can enter AE UNTIL they have a level 50.

2) AE is removed from newbie zones.

3) cap Vet experience in AE past Vet 15 (enough for all Tier 3, but ONE Tier 4)

 

Then people who think and enjoy the game like I do can be left to do our thing, coming out of our introverted bubbles WHEN we actually WANT TO :) and hopefully with any luck newer players will be encouraged to do whatever it is other people seem to want them to do.

 

Cheers and best wishes!

 

[Gadzookery]

1 minute ago, DuckTips said:

 

 

 

1) Nobody can enter AE UNTIL they have a level 50.

 

 

 

Completely fucks the RP community who often uses AE to play out their story arcs. Not all of them are 50.

[MoonSheep]

4 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

Have you done "Who Will Die" 20 times? 5 times?..

I do get what you are saying. I like endless enemy destruction and wish we had an option to do so. AE farms get close.

 

The AE changes we are presented with are a step in the direction of more and better player and community created content. Not just stories but enemy engagement as well.

Farm impacts are an aspect of this topic: Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

 

for some TFs where thematically viable, after the final mission is complete having progressively numerous and stronger waves of enemies could scratch the mass-death itch for a wide range of people. CoH meets dynasty warriors 2

[DuckTips]

15 minutes ago, Gadzookery said:

 

Completely fucks the RP community who often uses AE to play out their story arcs. Not all of them are 50.

 

My bad, I seriously wasnt aware.

 

OK then, throw out my suggestions or drop that one.

 

I honestly dont want the AE or aggro cap changes at all, and I wish they'd just revert those and leave us be. Do what you have to in order to encourage new people to do whatever, but devs please leave me to play as I prefer.

 

I just want to plan my costumes, play paper dolls, plan builds, PL to vet 11, and then have my collection of characters and my own personal stories in my head among them. And then I can play those characters when I want: solo missions, street grinding (my favorite activity), teaming up with real-life friends for door missions, and maybe once a month or so coming out of my introvert shell and playing a pick up mission or two.

 

Sorry if my suggestion was ignorant of some of the AE use. Just trying to find ways to not screw me over, but not screw anyone else over either. Sorry my my suggestion missed the mark.

Edited July 17, 2022 by DuckTips

[The_Warpact]

Remove AE buildings from all zones and put them in the Shadow Shard zones. Might not stop ya but it will slow ya down, especially at the furthest points. Someone said PVP zones too, just no pvp inside the buildings. Risk vs reward baby!

At this point it really fvcking sucks but gawddamn 5 hrs that's bs. I wish there was another work around that doesn't screw everyone over. Everything we are suggesting, arguing about, etc really doesn't go in this thread and he'll I'm guilty as sin on that account. Maybe let our stuff die off or a GM start a new thread for the testers.

 

BESIDES

Is anyone actually testing this in Beta besides @America's Angel??

[Coyotedancer]

5 minutes ago, DuckTips said:

 

 

I honestly dont want the AE or aggro cap changes at all, and I wish they'd just revert those and leave us be. Do what you have to in order to encourage new people to do whatever, but devs please leave me to play as I prefer.

 

Give the aggro change a chance... Having played around with it some over on Brainstorm, it's an interesting change. I had some doubts just reading the patch notes, but seeing it in action I actually like it.

 

Now, once it's live it may well get my not-always-so-situationally-aware relative-newbie nephews and their mum into some trouble on crowded maps... but that may just be the poke they need to start paying attention to where they are relative to the goons.

[Marbing]

5 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Is anyone actually testing this in Beta besides @America's Angel??

Testing what? I have tested farming in beta, but not sure which aspect you are referring to.

[Coyotedancer]

6 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Remove AE buildings from all zones and put them in the Shadow Shard zones. Might not stop ya but it will slow ya down, especially at the furthest points. Someone said PVP zones too, just no pvp inside the buildings. Risk vs reward baby!

At this point it really fvcking sucks but gawddamn 5 hrs that's bs. I wish there was another work around that doesn't screw everyone over. Everything we are suggesting, arguing about, etc really doesn't go in this thread and he'll I'm guilty as sin on that account. Maybe let our stuff die off or a GM start a new thread for the testers.

 

BESIDES

Is anyone actually testing this in Beta besides @America's Angel??

 

 

A few of us are.... and that "five hours" business is pretty unrealistic. Possible at the bleeding edge? Maybe. But not in any way the typical time. 

[Troo]

20 minutes ago, Marbing said:

Testing what? I have tested farming in beta, but not sure which aspect you are referring to.

Custom Enemy Changes

Advanced Enemy Power Customization

New Custom Enemy Powersets Additions

Mission Map Additions

Enemy Group Additions

etc

 

🙂

 

I am fiddling with some but there is a lot.

 

@Bionic_Flea @Oubliette_Red @Sakura Tenshi @Coyotedancer and others did a bunch on various things.

Some actual numbers around page 11~ for impact to AE exp related to custom critters. (cliff notes version: some impacts, but not game breaking)

Edited July 17, 2022 by Troo

[The_Warpact]

What @Troo said @Marbing.