issue 27 Focused Feedback: Architect Entertainment

[America's Angel]

2 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I'm aware of AA's opinion.

 

It's both a buff and a nerf.  Since more critters maintain aggro longer, it brings them to you once you've dispatched the ones around you.  But it also means you are taking shots from many more critters and even at capped resist and soft capped defense to fire that chips away at your health.

 

All that said, I don't mind the aggro changes.  While I do think that particular change will be harder on AFK farmers, I personally enjoyed it.  And sorry AFK farmers, but if you aren't at your keyboard clicking stuff, by definition that isn't playing the game.  If the goal is to curb AFK farming I think the aggro changes do it without all of the other XP losses.

 

AFK Farming is still possible.

Nerfing AFK farming isn't the goal of the aggro changes. The goal is to make the AI appear less dumb in game.

 

Only way to get rid of AFK farming is via an auto-detection system that somehow also detects macros.

[Bionic_Flea]

I said the change makes it harder to AFK farm and therefore curbs it.

 

The goal of the aggro change may have been to appear less dumb, but some of the other AE changes seem designed to curb farming.  If the aggro changes do that by itself then, perhaps, the other changes aren't necessary.

 

Macro AFK farming is beyond my skills.  While I understand wanting to make players play, I admire the skill and knowledge to do game the system.

[KaizenSoze]

4 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

 

AFK Farming is still possible.

Nerfing AFK farming isn't the goal of the aggro changes. The goal is to make the AI appear less dumb in game.

 

Only way to get rid of AFK farming is via an auto-detection system that somehow also detects macros.

As always I suggest that farmers use the copy character feature to test out the aggro changes.

 

Folks might have to buff up their afk builds a bit, but that's it I think. But do test, so it's not a surprise.

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

 

 

But it also means you are taking shots from many more critters and even at capped resist and soft capped defense to fire that chips away at your health.

My contingency plan is to respec into Healing Flames. Currently fire farmers are so OP that you don’t need to pick your heal power to handle +4x8+EB’s, so how bad can it be if I decide to grab and even slot my heal.

[Bionic_Flea]

1 minute ago, arcane said:

My contingency plan is to respec into Healing Flames.

Probably a wise idea.  Farming is still 100% viable.  It's just a little harder, a little less rewarding, or both depending on your chosen farm.

[TomatoPhalanges]

I've been discussing this with people over a while now, but my personal opinion is AE farming is totally fine! Great, even! A theraputic and relaxing method of earning rewards that doesn't tax a player's energy after a long day of work, when they just wanna sit down and watch videos,

 

That said the current situation is that reward yields from farming are severely, severely outweighing the effort it takes, right now. It is, without question, the best way to play if you have any interest in earning rewards and 'completing' your build in minimal time possible. For the rewards-minded or endgame-minded player, farming stops being a relaxing way to play and starts becoming the only way to play, with the rewards discrepancy being as it is. If we want compelling content to have compelling rewards, we simply can't have the rewards from the easiest form of content in the game being orders of magnitude better than anything else that exists. Others have answered this with 'well, why don't you buff the underperforming content?' and I answered 'yes, do that' - but I also don't think the underperforming content should be buffed to the current levels of AE rewards. I think AE needs to be taken down quite a few pegs, and content outside of it needs to be bumped up a couple - mainly in terms of Merit rewards, but also in general.

 

I also have proposed that we see Hazard Zones and Trial Zones get a street-sweeping XP buff, because that would be a super fun replacement/alternative to active AE farming as an optimal 'mostly mindless' method IMHO. Anyone else down to run around the Hollows and bash Trolls once again? Maybe go for a lap around Eden or Terra Volta?

[EmperorSteele]

Yeah, for "normal content" to have the same effort/reward ratio as fire farming, you'd have to earn a level every... levelx2 #of bad guys (so 4 guys to get to level 2, 50 guys to go from 24 to 25, etc). And that would be a bit broken.

Edited July 14, 2022 by EmperorSteele

[Puma]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:49 PM, Shadeknight said:

The AE should not be the end all be all source of all resources in the game. Prior to Page 4, it was.

 

Why?


If someone enjoys that aspect of the game, why does it matter?

Farming has kept this game alive FAR more than it has hurt it.  This is just another example of some people wanting to force their playstyle and vision onto others so they feel less lonely. 

In the end this game boils down to "grind".  Grind for XP, grind for merits, grind for Emps, and now grind for costume currency.  Why does it really matter if Joe and his friends want to grind in the AE for that while you want to grind in various TFs?   

[Ruin Mage]

Now that's a take I didn't imagine seeing.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with AE being a source. It's wrong when it is the #1 end all be all source.

Right now, all this removes is veteran levels. You also cannot get Aether through AE. AE will still be the place to go for EXP and influence - it just requires a little more work on making custom enemies. Nothing major is changing, it just means you have to get vet level outside AE. Which is not a big deal.

[Puma]

1 minute ago, Shadeknight said:

Now that's a take I didn't imagine seeing.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with AE being a source. It's wrong when it is the #1 end all be all source.

Right now, all this removes is veteran levels. You also cannot get Aether through AE. AE will still be the place to go for EXP and influence - it just requires a little more work on making custom enemies. Nothing major is changing, it just means you have to get vet level outside AE. Which is not a big deal.

Again, I ask "why"?  You didn't give any actual reason here, you just restated the claim. 

And I'm saying this as someone who uses both AE AND non-AE content.  

[skoryy]

24 minutes ago, TomatoPhalanges said:

Others have answered this with 'well, why don't you buff the underperforming content?' and I answered 'yes, do that' - but I also don't think the underperforming content should be buffed to the current levels of AE rewards.

 

You'd have to buff that content to insane levels just to match.

[Ruin Mage]

Why does it matter? Because one thing should not be the best source for all a game has.

The only things that, prior to Page 4, required you to leave AE is if you wanted to experience anything else. Or do badges. Otherwise, you could live and breathe the AE.

That is not good design and should have been killed off much sooner than this.

You should put more behind the claim that it has kept the game alive as well.

[Ruin Mage]

I think buffing regular ACTUAL content is a good step forward, but not to the insane levels of AE farming. More incentive to step outside of the AE = good, but it'll be tricky to achieve I think.

[TomatoPhalanges]

I'm actually of the opinion that buffing non-farm content much isn't even really super necessary outside of Merits (I feel like I level up plenty fast in it with a 2XP booster), but if it makes people happier about an AE nerf, I support mild buffs

[Ruin Mage]

The doomsaying over a harmless change is weird.

Show me one or more MMORPG with a population matching our size or above that has ONE place for ALL needs. EXP (as in leveling), money, equipment, etc. It also helps if it hasn't been changed at all since its release.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Shadeknight

[Marbing]

7 minutes ago, Puma said:

Again, I ask "why"?  You didn't give any actual reason here, you just restated the claim. 

How about I ask you, why do YOU farm?

[Andreah]

The principle is there should be reasonable equity in rewards between different modes of play. One should not stand out head and shoulders above the others in terms of engagement AND time investment per rewards. The most rewarding modes of play should be those that engage a player and require time investment. Farming's virtue of being low engagement (due to its low effort and fast defeat rates from easy enemies and it's being able to be done from very predictable rote or even afk action) should be compensated by provided lower rewards than content that requires just as much time, but requires the player to engage with that content with meaningful thought and process.

 

Let's be honest, if we have people leaving this game, I doubt it's the career farmers. It's the people who look at farming and see nothing but a boring time sink, and wonder why they're being pushed to do it by the comparative reward structure. 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Andreah

[Biosphere]

17 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

The doomsaying over a harmless change is weird.

Show me one or more MMORPG with a population matching our size or above that has ONE place for ALL needs. EXP (as in leveling), money, equipment, etc. It also helps if it hasn't been changed at all since its release.

 

This pretty much encapsulates everything about this thread. Everything in favor of nerfing the AE in this way are normative statements. Some people use the AE as their preferred way to get the rewards they want, and the suggestion is that they should not. Because it is deemed that the AE shouldn't be used in that way, and they should use other content. And that limitations should be put on the AE such as only Dev's Choice lets you get vet levels.

 

But there's nothing stopping anyone right now from choosing whatever content they want to do. You're basically saying that you deem the AE to be too good at what it does, and so because of that it comes at the detriment of everything else, because of course nobody else would ever choose to do something like trials or taskforces when they can just farm in the AE. You're making a supposition on someone's choices because you yourself have made a personal analysis, and then came to a conclusion.

 

The problem with making normative statements and value judgements is that you're removing choice and telling people the way you want to play isn't how I want you to play or what I want you to play, and that's why everyone who has a problem with this change is speaking up.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

 

You're basically saying that you deem the AE to be too good at what it does

Well, the devs are saying that. And they have the design vision so they’d be the ones to know. And it seems pretty ludicrous to try arguing the reward/risk ratio isn’t obscene in AE so their position seems reasonable to me.

[Marbing]

3 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

But there's nothing stopping anyone right now from choosing whatever content they want to do.

Yes there is. When everyone is stuck in AE because it’s the best way to get anything, then other players have a much harder time filling teams to do the content they want to do, and thus get sucked into farming or simply quitting the game. There are two sides to every coin. It’s about creating a balance and right now there is very little, as AE is the best way to do pretty much everything, so large portions of the current game population do nothing but that, thus making it harder (especially on the lower population servers) to get anything else done that requires a team.

[skoryy]

4 minutes ago, Biosphere said:

But there's nothing stopping anyone right now from choosing whatever content they want to do.

 

I could hack up my backyard, start up a vegetable garden, maybe even a chicken coop.  Or I could just hop on over to the produce and meat sections at Giant Eagle.

 

A choice isn't much of a choice if one method is far more efficient than the other.  Especially in an MMO where players are the content.  If more and more of them are parked at AE because that's where everyone else is at, what signal are you sending to new players who log into an empty open world?  Who are told to go straight to AE because all the other content isn't that good?  And who are told don't tell anyone about the booster XPs being better than advertised?

[blue4333]

Pardon my choice of words but City of Heroes is essentially a "dead" game running on private servers supported by volunteer efforts. People come back to CoH and by extension Homecoming for nostalgia and general love for the game itself. There's no leaderboard or Pay 2 Win or whatever incentives in current MMOs or games that would make powerleveling reduce the effort/time invested of other people who don't partake in AE farming post 50.

 

This change feels like it only serves to alienate people who just enjoy AE farming and force them to leave - in my opinion, there is no benefit in this to people who play TFs/Story Arcs.  It just feels punitive to people who enjoy AE Farming in a game that people play for general enjoyment and nostalgia.

Edited July 14, 2022 by blue4333

[Ruin Mage]

As it stands, there are or were farms that were under Dev's Choice.

Dev's Choice arcs allow you to get Vet levels. 

Solution? Make a farm with a decent enough story.

Otherwise: Unai, Harvey, and Maria all have farmable maps so long as you don't complete them.

Were we locked to i25 and no further development, I'd be all aboard not changing a thing. But this is a CoH that's changing and moving forward.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Shadeknight

[Peacemoon]

Players usually choose the path of least resistance, even if it is to the detriment to the game as a whole (and their own enjoyment).

 

This is why you need Devs who are prepared to make changes to the game to guide players back to what is in the best interests of the overall player experience and the game's future. It happens in every game, and outside of gaming too. That is why nerfing is a thing.

 

Would people do other content if the AE wasn't so lucrative? Would that be advantageous to the playerbase as a whole (more content being run, more fun) and the game (more players sticking around and more community)? The Devs obviously think so, and I'm inclined to agree.

 

Remember though all this fuss is about veteran levels. Last I looked no changes were being made to influence, recipe, salvage and enhancement drops in AE?

 

[Ruin Mage]

Just now, Peacemoon said:

Remember though all this fuss is about veteran levels. Last I looked no changes were being made to influence, recipe, salvage and enhancement drops in AE?

You can still get Veteran Levels off Dev Choice arcs, that's something people are skipping over.