Masterminds have wanted changes for years now.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:

Uh, please don't put words in my mouth talking about language barriers I never exclaimed such. Also, I really dislike when folks say they don't understand, even though I  OBVIOUSLY SUGGESTED OTHERWISE.

 

Why is this so hard to grasp? I literally stated that some of the overall threads here can equate down to a "what do they prioritize next". To which then followed up by saying, there is a thread specifically for volunteer developement member recruitment so they can get assistance. But I guess you skimmed over this on purpose, anyway, following that I posed a question "Does the HC team accept recruitment members, is this why there was many repeated threads or demands? Or are they holding this off now until they are more official and established as to give better opportunities for obvious reasons" and then included by exclaiming a thought, "...despite the accomplishment done so far as hobbyist devs, they can only engage in so many things at a time and aren't necessary ready to take in waves of those who wish to handle development priorities for all if not most situations". (Which btw is a acknowledgement, I'm not stupid, I can be allow to make this observation thanks!)

 

I got curious.

 

But the heart of the matter which you clearly glossed over and perhap should re-read is what I was trying to say is: Is this is why I brought up the example comparisions with Valheim dev team being smaller and perhaps HC doesn't want to actively take time off just to get people in; like are they purposly keeping develeoper numbers low or are they taking folks in? Yes or No. No one here's ever answered this question then concluded by saying "Maybe they are waiting to be more officially recognized and only want members they have now for the things they currerntly accel at."

 

That's all. 

 

I don't think anyone other than a dev can answer your questions. Sorry.

[eldriyth]

37 minutes ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:

That's fine, you are okay with me, it's just TygerDarkstorm couldn't be bothered + try to pull the fast one on me with hurr durr instead a "Oh I  see what you mean about Thunderspy, and no I don't know about that stuff" would've sufficed. I doubt I'll get one from them directly anways but that was my comment on the matter  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And this is the reason I created a thread a while ago that said thunder spy has great ideas that need to be "repurposed" into Homecoming's favor. All competitors do this. Just look at fast food as an example. Homecoming is a monopoly that could take full advantage of great ideas and bring all the boys to the school yard. So to speak.

[Riverdusk]

I'm one much looking forward to mercs getting the buff they need and a bit sad they didn't.  However, have to say I'm happy to finally see ice control get some buffs that it seriously needed, so I can't say I'm completely disappointed in this issue. 😀

 

I find there's usually at least a few good things in every issue, and of course it isn't going to be everything I wished for.  I can't ask for much more than that, especially from a volunteer team.

[TygerDarkstorm]

3 hours ago, FriezaReturns00001 said:

That's fine, you are okay with me, it's just TygerDarkstorm couldn't be bothered + try to pull the fast one on me with hurr durr instead a "Oh I  see what you mean about Thunderspy, and no I don't know about that stuff" would've sufficed. I doubt I'll get one from them directly anways but that was my comment on the matter  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You are now putting words into my mouth that I never said and are slandering me when I did not do the same to you. Much of what I said was not even directed at you, but I clearly said THE OP and others. Like I said, there was clearly a misunderstanding somewhere between us, and at this point, I have no idea what you're trying to say other than deciding that you're going to bash me over something incredibly stupid that I never did. 

 

I said there *might* be a language barrier or something happening because we aren't understanding one another. For someone telling me I need to learn how to read and that I can't be bothered with you, you're sure doing a great job of the pot calling the kettle black. 

 

Idk what your deal is, but perhaps you need to sit down and stop assuming everyone is "coming at you, bro." Most of my posts weren't even directed at you anyway. Pointing out what T-Spy does doesn't mean much here anyway because much of the HC playerbase and devs don't want to do what they do. Obviously I don't know what they do there since I have no desire to play on T-Spy because as I have said many, many times, I like the way the HC staff handles the game and it's one of the reasons I play here. Cool, you like the way MM's play over there? Then enjoy their take on MM's, you do you boo. Doesn't change the fact that here, MM's are in a pretty solid spot and aren't suffering the way some other sets and AT's are that need more work first. That's all some of us have been saying. Sheesh. Also, look up the use of the general you--when I was using it, that's what I meant, not you specifically.

[GM Impervium]

Hey folks, turn down the hostility, okay? Half of this thread is people arguing just to argue, and if it continues that way, I'm shutting it down.

[golstat2003]

I honestly  . . . don't care what other servers do.

 

The devs here will get to pet customization when they do and they'll do it their way. I'm fine with that.

[lemming]

3 hours ago, GM Impervium said:

Hey folks, turn down the hostility, okay? Half of this thread is people arguing just to argue, and if it continues that way, I'm shutting it down.

i think some are here for getting hit on the head lessons.

[biostem]

I'd love a "summon all" power as a QoL improvement.  The numbers can be tweaked a bit, sure, and customization would be lovely as well...

[plainguy]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:02 PM, arcane said:

Ok but who do you really know that likes MM’s

I do 

[plainguy]

What happen to those pages and pages of those discord chats they had about all the archtypes and changes people discussed? 

The problem with Masterminds is you have to have THAT BUILD.. That is it.. You either have THAT BUILD to do amazing things or you don't. 
You can fight that AV.. But one one slip up and your screwed.. Pets are dead.. You are dead..  There is no wiggle room with Masterminds.

I'm not crazy about the Bard either..
I could care less about these costumes you can collect with these tokens.. That clearly seems like it caters to the Roleplaying community, immensely. I am guessing they are a big population on whatever server. I get it, I played with Shadowclan back in the day on Ultima Online and in WoW.

I make my payments. I've paid hundreds to play on Homecoming. I will continue to do so.

I have my own wishes and wants. But they mean nothing. I have made my suggestions. Posted my wants.. 
But this is what they put out.. 
 

Maybe next update.. 

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, plainguy said:

What happen to those pages and pages of those discord chats they had about all the archtypes and changes people discussed? 

The problem with Masterminds is you have to have THAT BUILD.. That is it.. You either have THAT BUILD to do amazing things or you don't. 
You can fight that AV.. But one one slip up and your screwed.. Pets are dead.. You are dead..  There is no wiggle room with Masterminds.

I just throw my MMs together. Sure, I always take the Leadership pool on my MMs, but that is because my pets always get the benefit. I have no idea what THAT BUILD is. MMs can overwhelm any foe that is not throwing high damage AoEs around like there is no tomorrow. If you use Bodyguard mode, mind your pets' health so you can heal them, and throw your debuffs on the Big Bad, there isn't much danger. Edit: Oh yeah. And always, always, always be ready to re-summon.

 

Edit again: And running away until your pets can be re-summoned is not an admission of defeat. It is buying time to finish kicking the Big Bad's face in.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Rudra

[Riverdusk]

Personally I find MM's are kind of a high floor, low ceiling kind of AT.  They are one of the easier to play on lower to mid difficulties, you can just sit back and watch the carnage if you want.  At the same time, I find they can be very hard to play if you are going for +4/x8 or trying to do "challenge" type of stuff.  That is more when you need "the build", even moreso than most other AT's, and can need to be quick with pet commands.  Their lower level issue I think plays in to that.

 

And of course I find MM's tend to lag in fast moving teams just because the pets themselves tend to well...lag behind.  One of the most important changes I think they need is just giving all the pets a move speed boost.

 

But anyway, just my own personal feelings and they are still one of my favorite AT's.  Most of my 50's are MM, controllers, or scrappers.  So yeah, I'm also one that likes MM's.

[plainguy]

22 hours ago, Rudra said:

I just throw my MMs together. Sure, I always take the Leadership pool on my MMs, but that is because my pets always get the benefit. I have no idea what THAT BUILD is. MMs can overwhelm any foe that is not throwing high damage AoEs around like there is no tomorrow. If you use Bodyguard mode, mind your pets' health so you can heal them, and throw your debuffs on the Big Bad, there isn't much danger. Edit: Oh yeah. And always, always, always be ready to re-summon.

 

Edit again: And running away until your pets can be re-summoned is not an admission of defeat. It is buying time to finish kicking the Big Bad's face in.

We can agree to disagree.. That is fine.. 

People brought up several times about Mastermind taking on lvl 54 AVs..  That does NOT happen by just throwing a MM together.. 

No other AT has to run away if they have the inspirations.. A Mastermind MUST runaway to become affective again.. In a team setting.. No one is going to "WAIT" for the mastermind to reset and get his pets back.. Again not that this is a big deal in a team setting.. Because you really only need 2 to 3 maxed out players in a team.. Everyone else is literally cannon fodder and DPS additions to the team.  

BUT if waiting was a necessity then no one would want a Mastermind on their team, again fortunately it is not a necessity.. 
Again, there are so many other issues with Masterminds when compared to other Archtypes. 
But I do understand their game mechanics are much more complex being a primary pet based class compared to other archtypes. So I can understand working on Masterminds might just honestly be too hard for the Devs.. Why spend 40 hours trying to fix one thing for Masterminds when you can fix 4 things for a different archtype in the same time frame. They have to spend their FREE TIME wisely.. 

But I will reiterate, what happen to those pages and pages on all the archtypes that was dicussed on discorded. There was a debate over why discord was being used in the first place.. But they stated that was the best place to get inputs from the players..  That was the best medium at that time I guess for them. So that being said..  What happen to all that input on all the archtypes.. 

I went back and looked at those chats... I didn't see anyone ask for a bard power set..

Again I will pay as I do and maybe the next page update will have things that interest me. 
I found nothing interesting in this new update.. Sorry.. 
But again I will keep supporting Homecoming because not every update is going to be about me or several updates for that matter.. But trust me when Mastermind updates come in I will be on beta reviewing them aggressively. When Mastermind bot changes where made with the buff I was on and testing and making comments and asking question.

[arcane]

Pretty weird to bring up your choice to make donations multiple times. Surely you aren’t implying that your donations entitle you to some kind of special treatment.

[plainguy]

14 hours ago, arcane said:

Pretty weird to bring up your choice to make donations multiple times. Surely you aren’t implying that your donations entitle you to some kind of special treatment.

Come on.. 

Stop.. 

That is utter nonsense and you're reaching.. 

Out EVERYTHING I said.. That is what you decide to go after?  Strawman argument ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

What it means is I understand Homecoming is NOT Plainguy's Homecoming..  And as I stated not every patch is about me.. 
But I did make it very clear I felt this abundance of costumes added and the ways to get them really seemed to be solely for the Role-player's..  And I expressed some understanding with some facts about me RPing with what used to be a very popular guild back in the days. Meaning this is what I am basing my perception of the what I see.. I have Roleplayed before in Ultima online and in WoW.  So I know what an Role-player would like. Shadowclan Roleplayed Orcs.. So in Ultima online we wore orc helms.. In WoW we played Orcs.. 

So even though you TRIED to bait me into a different argument and failed..  I am reiterating my thoughts around the costumes added.. 

What it also means is I hold no grudge towards the devs.. I will continue to support them and homecoming regardless if I disagree or am not happy with the patches and updates... 
One day I will see something that is of value to Masterminds, MAYBE..  If not.. Well, when I get tired of playing my Masterminds and petless masterminds and now Power pool builds.. I will do something else.. 

Again nice bait, but not today..

 

[blue4333]

MMs are fine???? 

 

Which other AT has to go through hurdles and hoops to function properly? 

 

If a Blaster finds they're too squishy, they can take defensive powers or slot IOs to get around it. If a Controller finds their holds are too slow, get +Rech bonus.

 

Masterminds are literally handicapped from the start. Defensive Pet IOs take up slots. Pets spawning at level 48/49 instead of at the mastermind's levels. Pets instantly scattering if there are any Rain type powers with -Afraid e.g. Ignite from Longbow or Malta and especially Caltrops good grief - zombies usually walk so slow but they suddenly turn and run like the Flash if there are caltrops.

 

Not to mention the immense disparity between Pet Sets. Demons, Thugs and Beasts to an extent, are fine. Survivable and put out decent damage (if you fight enemies at -1 or +0). Necromancy, Mercs? Good luck - necro has such pitiful AOE in my opinion, no exp with Mercs but I've seen posts talking about the lack of damage and wonkiness of the pets.

 

Secondary sets - Better choose something that can sustain and bolster your pets. What good is a debuffer MM without their pets - no damage and no surviability.

 

Types of content - Only sticking to kill alls. We all know masterminds are literally constrained to normal kIll from start to finish content. if you go into a speedrun or a Hami, have fun being carried by the rest of the team.

 

I love masterminds but they need help.

[arcane]

 

8 hours ago, plainguy said:

Come on.. 

Stop.. 

That is utter nonsense and you're reaching.. 

Out EVERYTHING I said.. That is what you decide to go after?  Strawman argument ? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

What it means is I understand Homecoming is NOT Plainguy's Homecoming..  And as I stated not every patch is about me.. 
But I did make it very clear I felt this abundance of costumes added and the ways to get them really seemed to be solely for the Role-player's..  And I expressed some understanding with some facts about me RPing with what used to be a very popular guild back in the days. Meaning this is what I am basing my perception of the what I see.. I have Roleplayed before in Ultima online and in WoW.  So I know what an Role-player would like. Shadowclan Roleplayed Orcs.. So in Ultima online we wore orc helms.. In WoW we played Orcs.. 

So even though you TRIED to bait me into a different argument and failed..  I am reiterating my thoughts around the costumes added.. 

What it also means is I hold no grudge towards the devs.. I will continue to support them and homecoming regardless if I disagree or am not happy with the patches and updates... 
One day I will see something that is of value to Masterminds, MAYBE..  If not.. Well, when I get tired of playing my Masterminds and petless masterminds and now Power pool builds.. I will do something else.. 

Again nice bait, but not today..

 

Is English your first language? What in gods name are you talking about that has anything to do with what you quoted? I am so confused.

[Faelia]

MMs were the red-headed stepchild on live and they're the red-headed stepchild here as well.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Faelia

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

If a Blaster finds they're too squishy, they can take defensive powers or slot IOs to get around it.

MMs get access to those same powers.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

If a Controller finds their holds are too slow, get +Rech bonus.

Same with MMs. Sometimes speeding up a key power completely changes how the MM plays.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Defensive Pet IOs take up slots.

So does every other proc in the game.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Pets spawning at level 48/49 instead of at the mastermind's levels.

That was done to keep the MM from being too powerful. Biggest problem I've seen with MM pets? Are MMs that make no effort to manage their pets. Though the equal level pets in incarnate content is definitely nice.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Pets instantly scattering if there are any Rain type powers with -Afraid e.g. Ignite from Longbow or Malta and especially Caltrops good grief

I definitely agree with you here. Pets went from just staying in damage patches and dying to pets running for the hills and barely doing any fighting when a damage patch is dropped on them. One of many cases of game fixes that caused more problems than it fixed.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Not to mention the immense disparity between Pet Sets. Demons, Thugs and Beasts to an extent, are fine. Survivable and put out decent damage (if you fight enemies at -1 or +0). Necromancy, Mercs?

I've never noticed any major disparities between the sets. Do some do less damage than others? Yes. It was never so bad I cared though. As for Necromancy? I never found Necromancy bad, just boring as hell. (Edit: Zombies could definitely use a speed boost when not running away from damage patches though....) And as for Mercenaries...

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

no exp with Mercs but I've seen posts talking about the lack of damage and wonkiness of the pets.

Then you should probably give it a try before saying it is bad. Running a Mercenaries/Traps MM is tricky, yes. I find that to be a /Traps thing though.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Secondary sets - Better choose something that can sustain and bolster your pets.

They can all sustain and bolster the pets. Some have a higher learning curve than others though.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

What good is a debuffer MM without their pets - no damage and no surviability.

I've run several missions without my pets. (Though never at a high difficulty.) Back on Live, there was the petless MM thing going. It seemed very popular for some reason, though I never understood why people would make an AT and skip its core abilities.

 

3 hours ago, blue4333 said:

Types of content - Only sticking to kill alls. We all know masterminds are literally constrained to normal kIll from start to finish content.

I have multiple MMs that sneak their missions. Hells, when on a team with my friends, my MM is the one running unseen through the map and recalling everyone to their targets.

 

 

In the end, you can run an MM pretty much any way you want. I've soloed AVs. I've soloed some GMs. I sneak my friends around when they want to sneak, provided I'm on a /Dark MM or I took the Concealment pool. (I've never taken Super Speed on my MMs, so I never used the stealth proc+SS bit.) I never understand the rants about MMs on the Suggestions and Feedback forum because I've played every MM primary and almost every secondary and never had any of the problems others cite in their posts. The closest I got to a problematic MM? Is my Mercenaries/Traps. And that one just requires I be a bit more careful about my pet management and situational awareness. And when two MMs are on a team? That's a dead map.

 

Could MMs use a little attention? Yes, but so could every other AT in the game. (I think the attention Tankers need is to have some of their over-abundant buffing reduced/removed, but I'm most likely in the minority on that.) Other players can say that they find MMs to be bad. That is their opinion. It is the presentation that those complaints are fact, that it cannot be disputed, that only THAT BUILD is viable, that frustrates me about these threads.

 

MMs are not a passive AT. They were never meant to be a passive AT. They are only a passive AT when doing low difficulty missions. Running a MM takes a lot of effort to manage the pets, keep the hostiles off-balance and unable to mount a proper response, and keep the MM chugging.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Rudra
Edited to put space between any and way in anyway.

[blue4333]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

MMs get access to those same powers.

 

 

Yes because Masterminds have to take Leadership - the only set that is worth taking that can help the pets survive. Not much flexibility here. Sorcery for Spirit Ward? Kinda meh for a single pet. Fighting and Hasten? Not so much in building up the pets' survivability or damage; sure you can say that Hasten helps with the cycling of buffs/debuffs to help with that but other ATs can do the same with Hasten so the baseline moves along as well.

 

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Same with MMs. Sometimes speeding up a key power completely changes how the MM plays.

 

Nope. It's not as good/impactful as a Defender or Corruptor or Controller (buffs/debuffs/controls) except an MM has lower values in its secondary set and piss-poor attacks in Primary. Gang War is good with Burnout and Hell on Earth for a small unnoticeable buff but that's about it.

 

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So does every other proc in the game.

 

 

This is the main gripe I have about the Pet IOs. People comparing it to Procs. Why do other ATs get the flexibility to slot IOs to increase performance or forgo the Proc so they can chase a Set Bonus. But Masterminds have to take the Pet Defensive IOs  - this just feels like a handicap in non Thugs/Necro/Demon Masterminds, not enough slots and not enough powers to slot those 4/5 Pet IOs. There's no flexibility here, it's literally a tax. Masterminds have to take it if they want their pets to stay around longer, no need for thinking if they want more damage or the set bonus like other ATs do.

27 minutes ago, Rudra said:

They can all sustain and bolster the pets. Some have a higher learning curve than others though.

 

 

If you're not Time/Thermal/Cold or Dark (Debuffs + Res) your Mastermind probably isn't optimal. Forcefield and Empathy have their own problems (if they can't keep move a whole team of 8 along in content, pets + team would be like what 14 people to support?), Kinetics only works well on Beasts, Traps no sustain except for FFG and Poison on an MM is really lackluster compared to a Defender/Corruptor.

 

28 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I've soloed AVs. I've soloed some GMs. I sneak my friends around when they want to sneak

 

All ATs should be able to do that so I don't think as a Mastermind you should be feeling good about doing what ever other AT can do. Speed running is a pain, Hami Raids are a pain, fire patches/caltrops just destroy the whole AT; not to mention the level shift in non-Incarnate content; the Pet IO tax; the speed of pets in some sets; these are all specific pain points that only the Mastermind AT faces.

31 minutes ago, Rudra said:

MMs are not a passive AT. They were never meant to be a passive AT. They are only a passive AT when doing low difficulty missions. Running a MM takes a lot of effort to manage the pets, keep the hostiles off-balance and unable to mount a proper response, and keep the MM chugging.

 

Yes. I know this - I have 3 Masterminds that i used to play in high-end content and most content in the game. Necro/Dark - absolute pain due to the pets having low damage and weird resistances (grave knights being weak to S/L damage? okay...???) I play my Masterminds as TankersMinds and the normal playstyles. I know what I'm doing. 

 

The whole AT requires so much more effort than Controllers/Defenders and for what? The Mastermind AT doesn't bring as much Buff/Debuff or any Control (Barring Dark but Defenders get that too) or Damage! Even Controllers have more impactful pets in their T9. It saddens me when I have this amazing concept for a Mastermind just to be crippled by the AT's drawbacks.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

Yes because Masterminds have to take Leadership

No, they don't. They simply have the best reason to. Leadership buffs the entire team, and MMs are single-player teams. MMs no more have to take Leadership than any other AT out there. Also? Leadership is part of the Holy Quad of pool sets, so arguing that MMs take Leadership makes even less sense.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

Sorcery for Spirit Ward? Kinda meh for a single pet.

Never taken it. Not for my MMs and not for any AT. So the reference is lost on me.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

Fighting and Hasten? Not so much in building up the pets' survivability or damage; sure you can say that Hasten helps with the cycling of buffs/debuffs to help with that but other ATs can do the same with Hasten so the baseline moves along as well.

Fighting can help the MM's personal survival, which helps with re-summoning pets, but again, is not necessary. Bodyguard Mode works so much better, but Bodyguard Mode with Fighting Pool is more resilient. Hasten? I don't take. On anything. I can get more than enough recharge from set bonuses and individual enhancements.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

Nope. It's not as good/impactful as a Defender or Corruptor or Controller (buffs/debuffs/controls)

That is a matter of opinion. My MMs and my Corruptors debuff equally difficult targets equally well as far as I can tell.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

piss-poor attacks in Primary.

Because the MMs primary set personal attacks are supplemental. Even at that though, my Ninja/Dark MM, which is my primary since it was the first MM I ever made back on Live and so was the first I brought back on HC, has no problems doing appreciable damage with the bow attacks and no pets. Less damage than other ATs? Of course, I'm not using my primary damage powers, the pets.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

If you're not Time/Thermal/Cold or Dark (Debuffs + Res) your Mastermind probably isn't optimal. Forcefield and Empathy have their own problems

I refuse to use Thermal or Cold for personal reasons. I've never tried Time. Dark, Nature (which is funny since I didn't know that Rebirth was both heal and rez, and was just using it as a rez), Pain, and Storm are the secondaries I use most often. My Robotics/Radiation MM is still low level, so that character is still going through the teething stage of development, which precludes me from commenting on how it plays. Every secondary has its tricks to learn, its benefits. It just takes time to sort through them.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

This is the main gripe I have about the Pet IOs. People comparing it to Procs. Why do other ATs get the flexibility to slot IOs to increase performance or forgo the Proc so they can chase a Set Bonus. But Masterminds have to take the Pet Defensive IOs

MMs have the same flexibility on procs as other ATs. I take the pet procs to help my pets. I've also run without the pet procs and still had the same survivability rate for my pets. In fact, most times I wonder if the pet procs are even worth bothering with since I could just slap more damage into my pets with more procs. A six-damage proc tier 1 pet power would probably be mind blowing for sheer damage output.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

I've soloed AVs. I've soloed some GMs. I sneak my friends around when they want to sneak

 

All ATs should be able to do that so I don't think as a Mastermind you should be feeling good about doing what ever other AT can do.

No, they shouldn't. AVs were originally the 'must have team to defeat' enemies with GMs being the 'must have multiple teams to defeat' enemies. The fact anyone can solo them just shows how excessively powerful characters have gotten in the game with all the proposed and implemented changes. And since one of the complaints is that an MM can't defeat a level 54 AV, the fact my MMs can without any special talent blows a hole right through that argument.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

not to mention the level shift in non-Incarnate content; the Pet IO tax; the speed of pets in some sets; these are all specific pain points that only the Mastermind AT faces.

MMs are also the only AT that can be mezzed and not care. Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers? They simply aren't affected by mezzes until their protection is exceeded. MMs? Can be mezzed and know that until their pets go down, they are still perfectly viable. And with any real amount of mez resistance? Will break out of their mez and be able to recover their injured and defeated pets before the enemies can finish taking them down most times. Corruptors can't do that. Controllers can't do that. Dominators can't do that. Defenders can't do that. Blasters come close, but only have their two lowest attacks available.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

The whole AT requires so much more effort than Controllers/Defenders and for what?

MMs require a lot of work because they have a lot going on. Their offense is their defense. Their defense is rock solid when managed. Running 6 (or 7 if /Dark) pets will always be a lot of work. The work pays off in what MMs can do.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

and weird resistances (grave knights being weak to S/L damage? okay...???)

Yeah... that always baffled me too... total agreement here.

 

1 hour ago, blue4333 said:

Even Controllers have more impactful pets in their T9.

Except Controller pets and Dominator pets just run around attacking whatever they feel like. Sometimes they just stand there because the attacking mobs are outside the pets' aggro radius. MMs can order their pets to attack a distant enemy or pursue a fleeing one. MMs can order their pets to stay with them and ignore enemies until the Mm is ready for the pets to fight. MMs can have their pets take a share of the damage being hurled at the MM by mobs ignoring the pets because the mobs routinely seem to not recognize MM pets as threats.

 

Look, we can argue until Doomsday about MMs. I personally do not see (most of) the problems other players complain about. (The ones I do see, I agree with. Like Grave Knights. Please fix their resists so it makes sense. And make the pets better able to keep up with the MM. Sure, there are problems to be fixed. All ATs have problems to be fixed though, so I don't understand the apparent rage of the OP.) You may know how to manage MM pets. My MM friends definitely do. Most MMs I see though? Seem to have no idea that controllable pets can be controlled and should be. And if they started actively managing their pets and secondary powers? They would find that MMs are a lot more capable than they have been giving credit for. There are outlier power sets in the AT, such as Mercenaries apparently being at the bottom end of the AT's damage spectrum, but there are outlier power sets in every AT. This entire thread has me confused and frustrated. Because the thread reads like MMs are garbage. Especially if a Mercenaries MM. And all they are, is a different play style to be figured out and enjoyed.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Rudra

[TygerDarkstorm]

2 hours ago, blue4333 said:

If you're not Time/Thermal/Cold or Dark (Debuffs + Res) your Mastermind probably isn't optimal. Forcefield and Empathy have their own problems (if they can't keep move a whole team of 8 along in content, pets + team would be like what 14 people to support?), Kinetics only works well on Beasts, Traps no sustain except for FFG and Poison on an MM is really lackluster compared to a Defender/Corruptor.

Lolwhat? My Demons/Storm MM would like to have a word with you. She absolutely shreds things and she's not even fully built yet. MM's are not like any other AT in the game, it's what makes them so fun and interesting. Some sacrifices much be made with the AT when the primary source of their damage comes from controllable, buffable, minions. They're not an AT that is going to be for everyone, but I stand by what I've said all along about them--they are in a pretty decent place here on HC. There are other AT's and aspects that need more help right now (namely Sentinels). And /Traps works just fine if you learn how to play with it; it requires a different type of playstyle, just look at the threads for Ill/Traps controllers. MM's are my favorite AT, and while there are some changes that have been mentioned here that I would like to see, I am okay with the fact that they didn't happen during this page, and throwing temper tantrums about it isn't going to change anything.

[blue4333]

5 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

and throwing temper tantrums about it isn't going to change anything.

 

Gurlll... Just because I have raised feedback and my opinions means I'm throwing a tantrum?

 

[TygerDarkstorm]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

No, they don't. They simply have the best reason to. Leadership buffs the entire team, and MMs are single-player teams. MMs no more have to take Leadership than any other AT out there. Also? Leadership is part of the Holy Quad of pool sets, so arguing that MMs take Leadership makes even less sense.

 

Never taken it. Not for my MMs and not for any AT. So the reference is lost on me.

 

Fighting can help the MM's personal survival, which helps with re-summoning pets, but again, is not necessary. Bodyguard Mode works so much better, but Bodyguard Mode with Fighting Pool is more resilient. Hasten? I don't take. On anything. I can get more than enough recharge from set bonuses and individual enhancements.

 

That is a matter of opinion. My MMs and my Corruptors debuff equally difficult targets equally well as far as I can tell.

 

Because the MMs primary set personal attacks are supplemental. Even at that though, my Ninja/Dark MM, which is my primary since it was the first MM I ever made back on Live and so was the first I brought back on HC, has no problems doing appreciable damage with the bow attacks and no pets. Less damage than other ATs? Of course, I'm not using my primary damage powers, the pets.

 

I refuse to use Thermal or Cold for personal reasons. I've never tried Time. Dark, Nature (which is funny since I didn't know that Rebirth was both heal and rez, and was just using it as a rez), Pain, and Storm are the secondaries I use most often. My Robotics/Radiation MM is still low level, so that character is still going through the teething stage of development, which precludes me from commenting on how it plays. Every secondary has its tricks to learn, its benefits. It just takes time to sort through them.

 

MMs have the same flexibility on procs as other ATs. I take the pet procs to help my pets. I've also run without the pet procs and still had the same survivability rate for my pets. In fact, most times I wonder if the pet procs are even worth bothering with since I could just slap more damage into my pets with more procs. A six-damage proc tier 1 pet power would probably be mind blowing for sheer damage output.

 

No, they shouldn't. AVs were originally the 'must have team to defeat' enemies with GMs being the 'must have multiple teams to defeat' enemies. The fact anyone can solo them just shows how excessively powerful characters have gotten in the game with all the proposed and implemented changes. And since one of the complaints is that an MM can't defeat a level 54 AV, the fact my MMs can without any special talent blows a hole right through that argument.

 

MMs are also the only AT that can be mezzed and not care. Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers, and Stalkers? They simply aren't affected by mezzes until their protection is exceeded. MMs? Can be mezzed and know that until their pets go down, they are still perfectly viable. And with any real amount of mez resistance? Will break out of their mez and be able to recover their injured and defeated pets before the enemies can finish taking them down most times. Corruptors can't do that. Controllers can't do that. Dominators can't do that. Defenders can't do that. Blasters come close, but only have their two lowest attacks available.

 

MMs require a lot of work because they have a lot going on. Their offense is their defense. Their defense is rock solid when managed. Running 6 (or 7 if /Dark) pets will always be a lot of work. The work pays off in what MMs can do.

 

Yeah... that always baffled me too... total agreement here.

 

Except Controller pets and Dominator pets just run around attacking whatever they feel like. Sometimes they just stand there because the attacking mobs are outside the pets' aggro radius. MMs can order their pets to attack a distant enemy or pursue a fleeing one. MMs can order their pets to stay with them and ignore enemies until the Mm is ready for the pets to fight. MMs can have their pets take a share of the damage being hurled at the MM by mobs ignoring the pets because the mobs routinely seem to not recognize MM pets as threats.

 

Look, we can argue until Doomsday about MMs. I personally do not see (most of) the problems other players complain about. (The ones I do see, I agree with. Like Grave Knights. Please fix their resists so it makes sense. And make the pets better able to keep up with the MM. Sure, there are problems to be fixed. All ATs have problems to be fixed though, so I don't understand the apparent rage of the OP.) You may know how to manage MM pets. My MM friends definitely do. Most MMs I see though? Seem to have no idea that controllable pets can be controlled and should be. And if they started actively managing their pets and secondary powers? They would find that MMs are a lot more capable than they have been giving credit for. There are outlier power sets in the AT, such as Mercenaries apparently being at the bottom end of the AT's damage spectrum, but there are outlier power sets in every AT. This entire thread has me confused and frustrated. Because the thread reads like MMs are garbage. Especially if a Mercenaries MM. And all they are, is a different play style to be figured out and enjoyed.

Thank you. This was written better than I can come up with. Yes, MM's take extra effort, but once you get it figured out, the results are rewarding. Or frustrating. Just depends on what you're looking to get out of your characters.

[TygerDarkstorm]

Just now, blue4333 said:

 

Gurlll... Just because I have raised feedback and my opinions means I'm throwing a tantrum?

 

Some of y'all here have serious issues with reading comprehension and the use of a general you. I never said you specifically threw a tantrum, but others in this thread waxing on about how dare the devs didn't touch MM's this page are.