Focused Feedback: Reward Merits

[Astralock]

1 minute ago, Yumichan said:

 

If I want merits yes.  Converting let me earn by playing solo at my pace.  I play odd time when not many playing online.  I like to play solo now I can only get merits on teams which I do not like.  This is a terrible change.

 

If you mean reward merits, you can them doing story arcs, either at level or via Ouroboros Flashback.  They don't only come from TFs/SFs/trials, although that is definitely one of the main sources of them.

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

 

But if you stop making alts, isn't inf just as useless?

Bingo 

[Dazl]

3 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

Well no, you did earn them by doing whatever activities that earned the veteran level XP to get them.  Nice try though. 

Looks like the Dev's disagree, nice try though.

[MoonSheep]

11 hours ago, Yumichan said:

 

If I want merits yes.  Converting let me earn by playing solo at my pace.  I play odd time when not many playing online.  I like to play solo now I can only get merits on teams which I do not like.  This is a terrible change.

 

you’re able to play TFs solo on homecoming, still easily possible to earn good merits solo. storyarcs through ouro are also a good source 

 

keeping a chat tab focused on zone events is an easy way to earn merits too, think it’s around 6 merits for each giant monster killed

 

edit: like my breathten @Marbing, i am blessed to receive an embrace of downvotes from the hallowed forum trolls 🙏 i will wear them with great honour 

Edited August 12, 2022 by MoonSheep

[ShardWarrior]

5 hours ago, Dazl said:

Looks like the Dev's disagree, nice try though.

 

If they are not a reward, then why remove the conversion?  Supposedly the conversion is being removed because earning them through Vet levels makes AE "the best place for all rewards" in the game.  Quite clearly they see them as a valuable reward.

[arcane]

9 hours ago, Yumichan said:

 

If I want merits yes.  Converting let me earn by playing solo at my pace.  I play odd time when not many playing online.  I like to play solo now I can only get merits on teams which I do not like.  This is a terrible change.

There are still tons of ways for you to get merits solo if you want them.

[Yumichan]

4 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

you’re able to play TFs solo on homecoming, still easily possible to earn good merits solo. storyarcs through ouro are also a good source 

 

keeping a chat tab focused on zone events is an easy way to earn merits too, think it’s around 6 merits for each giant monster killed

 

28 minutes ago, arcane said:

There are still tons of ways for you to get merits solo if you want them.

 

I understand this.  I already play stories.  The empyrian merit from veteran reward are a very nice bonus to help with other characters.  I do not want to do a lot of TF or solo monsters to make up for that. 

[arcane]

1 minute ago, Yumichan said:

 

 

I understand this.  I already play stories.  The empyrian merit from veteran reward are a very nice bonus to help with other characters.  I do not want to do a lot of TF or solo monsters to make up for that. 

Convert your emps to threads and then to ultimates if you still need emps to = cash.

[Yumichan]

8 minutes ago, arcane said:

Convert your emps to threads and then to ultimates if you still need emps to = cash.

 

This is one use yes.  Other is to convert to merit for enhancements or recipe if I want.  Now I am losing out on bonus empyrian merit from veteran levels.  This is a bad change. 

[Omega-202]

26 minutes ago, Yumichan said:

 

This is one use yes.  Other is to convert to merit for enhancements or recipe if I want.  Now I am losing out on bonus empyrian merit from veteran levels.  This is a bad change. 

You seem to be mistaken.  You aren't losing out on bonus empyrian merits from veteran levels.  That's not changing.  All that's changing is the conversion to regular merits.  

 

I think you need to re-read what is changing.  

[Yumichan]

15 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

You seem to be mistaken.  You aren't losing out on bonus empyrian merits from veteran levels.  That's not changing.  All that's changing is the conversion to regular merits.  

 

I think you need to re-read what is changing.  

 

I understand fine the conversion to merit is being taken away.  I used that many times and I would like to keep it.  This is a bad change.  I apologize if I am not clear, English is not my first language. 

[Redletter]

On 8/11/2022 at 11:05 PM, Dazl said:

Looks like the Dev's disagree, nice try though.

 

So... you're just actually being antagonistic, right? This reads as being directly antagonistic.

On 8/11/2022 at 6:03 PM, Dazl said:

Technically you didn't really "earn" the emps, they are a gift given at certain leveling milestones. I understand though, everyone gets a trophy.

Are you... implying that the emps you get from say, a hami raid is something you earn then?

 

What level of effort defines "earning" emp merits? Because those are also a "gift" you get for the completion of content that is almost totally run by people who usualy arent you, and by the very nature of the raid, you only really actually do a third of the effort at any given time (even LESS, statistically speaking, if you're the tank, who fights ONE enemy as opposed to the DPS and MEZ teams that have to fight... I think it's 6 each?). This becomes even less favorable in a margin of effort measurement based on the role youre playing, because if you showed up as melee dps, the effort you specifically put forward has to be divided between the 10 or more other people doing the same thing as you.

 

So, how much effort did you put in as an individual to earn your reward? Because completing the raid gives everyone who so much as PARTICIPATED the rewards (to the point where you can follow along, solo, and still get credit) and, by that merit, the devs are saying ANYBODY in the area who helped deserves the reward, regardless of how much they really did -- or is that a gift? Because it's pretty easy to get through it with such a well organized league of 30+ people, i mean, it's honestly easier than getting a veteran level, since you know, you can run 4 hamis a day and not get one vet level, but still get 4 emp merits, and 160 reward merits (assuming you did it all on 1 toon).

 

So, which is the reward here and which is the gift? It was harder to get the vet level which gives the emp merits, by doing the content that rewards emp merits, in an activity that you don't really need a lot of effort to complete due to the volume of effort required to complete it being divided among a large group...

 

On 8/11/2022 at 3:35 PM, arcane said:

You realize 4 or 5 emp merits = 40-50 reward merits = 10 minutes on an Apex TF? 
 

You probably should’ve lied about the scale of your loss 🙂 

 

According to Arcane, it takes a whole ten minutes on a TF, so... that's not a whole lot of effort, especially since you're on a team of people who are probably incarnate'd out the ass. So assuming this isn't a disingenuous exaggeration born from the desire to make a passive aggressive jab that wholly misrepresents someone's argument then it raises a lot of questions. Did you earn your merit reward because you participated in a TF that could have been handled by a team that didn't include you at all? Did you earn the right to take part by reaching the prequisite level? Do you earn the end of TF reward by being able to have done the content yourself? By contributing the most? How do we calculate who in fact contributed the most and therefore truly "earned" their reward?

 

Should nobody under level 30 be getting anything for taking part in Mothership Raids? The GAME certainly says they shouldn't be here, as you don't even get the vanguard folks as contacts before that benchmark, so should these people just be barred from participating? Would all of those raid leaders say the same? Should callouts be changed to something more like "Come on down to MSR! But ONLY if you can ACTUALLY help? Like, if you're sub level 30 just don't even bother, please, just go back to DFB or whatever it is you people run, we don't want you here, not that you should even be here anyway, you just haven't been gifted enough participation trophy EXP to earn the right to be gifted vanguard merits"? 

 

Lots of questions. MY biggest questions though are why @Dazl is deliberately being actively antagonistic, particularly to @ShardWarrior, over this whole discussion? Who made them an arbiter of what is "earned" by the player, and what is a "gift" the game gives you? Why is this sort of toxicity allowed in their case?

 

Tune in next post, for maybe, something constructive.

[Redletter]

On 8/11/2022 at 9:48 AM, Crasical said:

Is it actually that good? I got the impression it wouldn't proc well because it's got multiple psudeopets dropping for every fire patch, and the character I was going deep into Sorcery with was a Controller, so not great damage there to begin with.

 

I'm exaggerating a bit (as was the joke at the time) but it's pretty ok. Like I said, it's better for helping others in activities where one or two people are holding ALL the aggro. You target them (usually the same person you hit with spirit ward) and enemies who get on them just get stuck in the flames, since tanks don't typically do a lot of active repositioning. Now, maybe *damage* procs arent great on it, but I use it for immobilize and knockdown and -res more than anything, which it does fairly well? It's obviously not a proc monster like something like Caltrops, and if you're applying it to ENEMIES who tend to run around A LOT, you'll see far less results. But it's far from a bad power, Ive always looked at it in the sense that Arcane Bolt is there to support YOUR damage, Ward of Protection is there to support YOUR survivability, Spirit Ward is there to support your FRIENDS, and, therefore, Enflame is there to boost your FRIENDS.

 

 

 

[Ironblade]

On 8/11/2022 at 6:44 PM, Troo said:

Seriously though, it would be interesting to hear how many Empyrean to Reward Merit conversions happened is the past month.

Just to get a sense of scale.

You can't look at the numbers NOW.  Some people have been panic-converting once this was announced.

Looking at the numbers from 2 or 3 months ago and comparing with the past month would be interesting, though.

[Dazl]

5 hours ago, Redletter said:

Lots of questions. MY biggest questions though are why @Dazl is deliberately being actively antagonistic, particularly to @ShardWarrior, over this whole discussion? Who made them an arbiter of what is "earned" by the player, and what is a "gift" the game gives you? Why is this sort of toxicity allowed in their case?

Not being deliberately antagonistic, I just have a different opinion. Getting rewards for something you can do afk is quite a bit different then doing something with a group for a reward.  Sure any team or league effort will have people contributing at various levels but most people work together to complete the task. Even solo content (outside of AE) requires you to focus and interact to complete.  If someone feels there is no difference between afk and a solo/group focused activity, then we will simply agree to disagree. 

[Myrmidon]

On 8/11/2022 at 8:03 PM, Dazl said:

Technically you didn't really "earn" the emps, they are a gift given at certain leveling milestones. I understand though, everyone gets a trophy.

As we don’t have the 9+ years of Incarnate content that Paragon Studios would have given us without The Snap, It’s less a trophy and more a way to actually level Incarnates through content other than raids until you vomit.

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

17 hours ago, Dazl said:

Getting rewards for something you can do afk is quite a bit different then doing something with a group for a reward. 

 

You can essentially AFK any content on a team and get the reward for it, so your argument singling out the EMP merits from Vet levels does not work.

[arcane]

4 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

You can essentially AFK any content on a team and get the reward for it, so your argument singling out the EMP merits from Vet levels does not work.

Good luck doing that as reliably as an afk farmer

[Excraft]

4 hours ago, arcane said:

Good luck doing that as reliably as an afk farmer

 

You all can't have this both ways.  When the topic of instant 50 tokens came up, some people suggested making certain badges like TF commander being required to unlock it.  The anti-crowd threw their usual hissy fit and chimed in with the excuse "all badges can be AFK'ed".  So yeah, so long as you're on a team of mates who don't mind carrying you, you can AFK any badges or other rewards.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Excraft said:

You all can't have this both ways.  When the topic of instant 50 tokens came up, some people suggested making certain badges like TF commander being required to unlock it.  The anti-crowd threw their usual hissy fit and chimed in with the excuse "all badges can be AFK'ed".  So yeah, so long as you're on a team of mates who don't mind carrying you, you can AFK any badges or other rewards.

 

Not to mention all of the complaint threads and comments over the years about people begging for PLs in LFG.  If there really is that many begging for farms, there must not be a lot of people taking advantage of multi-boxing or AFK farming. 

 

21 minutes ago, Krimson said:

LOL so when I suggested tokens, the idea was to have less farming because you bypass a few hours in AE. So of course hiding it behind Task Force Commander would be suggested. That's just players saying with way too many words that they want more farming. 

 

As I remember it, the badges and whatever else to unlock them was in response to tokens just costing a lot of inf.  The reasoning was making them inf only would just encourage more farming or buying inf from gold farmers. 

[arcane]

2 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

You all can't have this both ways.  When the topic of instant 50 tokens came up, some people suggested making certain badges like TF commander being required to unlock it.  The anti-crowd threw their usual hissy fit and chimed in with the excuse "all badges can be AFK'ed".  So yeah, so long as you're on a team of mates who don't mind carrying you, you can AFK any badges or other rewards.

Did I make that point? I’m pretty sure I didn’t make that point. So no idea why you’re associating me with it.

[MoonSheep]

On 7/19/2022 at 1:20 AM, Booper said:

Merit Rewards

• The Empyrean/Astral Merit to Reward Merit conversion has been removed from Reward Merit vendors.
• For Incarnate Trials we'll be adding a completion bonus reward of Reward Merits on-top of the current standard Empyrean/Astral Merit rewards valuing the total of what the standard conversion would've amounted to. Meaning you'll get the same number of Empyrean/Astral Merits as you were before Page 4 but also get the following on-top:
  • Behavioral Adjustment Facility Trial = 18 Reward Merits
  • Lambda Sector Trial = 20 Reward Merits
  • Keyes Island Reactor Trial = 18 Reward Merits
  • The Underground Trial = 40 Reward Merits
  • TPN Campus Trial= 30 Reward Merits
  • Minds of Mayhem Trial = 30 Reward Merits
  • Dilemma Diabolique Trial = 30 Reward Merits
  • The Magisterium Trial = 22 Reward Merits

 

@Booper i think this is a good change and will boost the merit earning ability for a lot of people. i do wonder whether the reward for the keyes trial should be higher - from my experience it’s often notably more difficult than a BAF, i think a reward of 21-22 merits would be more fitting

[Neiska]

Unpopular opinion -

 

Honestly? I don't really care.  I have never turned EMP merits into normal merits. As someone who likes to level up many alts, more than I do so doing high end team content, EMPs are far more precious to me than merits are. If i need something I will turn the merits I get from normal story arcs or just spend some of the INF I have banked to get it. For mainly solo players, EMPs are much harder to get than merits or INF.

 

My two cents.

[Paragon Vanguard]

For some of us, there is no benefit, only a loss of the ability to get merits to better our sets. It doesn't matter that you can get the same or better rewards through trials, some of us do not have the ability nor the desire to do trials, so you are alienating a portion of your base.  

[Iavalyn]

Going to echo what a lot have already said, not sure why this change is taking place. you are taking away an option for the entire player base in order to add an incentive for incarnate trials? Seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water.  If the idea is to discourage AE farming then I also think it will miss the mark, if I can't use empyrean merits to get catalyst or converters then I'm going to need to farm more in order to be able to purchase those items from other players.  Just kind of at a loss overall.